resistance to change...why

General Discussion
21

If boards aren’t made to last, then why are there so many twenty, thirty year old boards at the beach?

They aren’t Surftechs.

Boards can be made (as I’m sure someone mentioned) to last or to be ultralight.

But the fact is that a 6,6 trifin with two layers of six ounce on the deck and six on the bottom, gloss and polish, will perform just as well as a 4,4,4 with a sanded finish. 99.9% of the surfers out there will not surf better because they saved a pound. No way. Only a real world-class professional can feel a difference that matters.

I have a 7,6 pintail with heavier glass and it has been slammed many times in large surf and it’s still going strong. No dings, buckles, etc. I have had it three years and take it out in the biggest conditions around here. No problems.

And I had it made custom, the way I wanted it, not the way someone else wanted it.

You say SHAPERS are resistant to change? Heck, I am a SURFER who is resistant to change.

Not everything has to change. I understand that change is normal and we have to adapt, but that doesn’t mean that we have to seek or initiate change.

The method of building boards that has been around now for over fifty years is working very, very well.

Just look at the best professional surfers in the world. They like polyurethane blanks and glass.

Plus, what would we do without that classic smell coming out of a glass shop? That, to me, is the best smell in the world. Coming in second is the smell of a brand new wetsuit. And, of course, there’s wax.

I’ll change my underwear instead.

22
Quote:

I agree with you that epoxy has some advantages but the advantages are fairly minor.OK …on a scale of 1-10(from a strength pespective) lets call a poly board 5…an epoxy hand layup 5 1/2…Surftech 7.The board I speak of using advanced aircraft technology would be around 9 presuming 10 is impossible.The problem is it would be a “popout” in surf jargon…plus it would be very expensive,so it is going to be no sell.Personally I have no problems with popouts,its just that we as surfers live in a culture that is unique.What other sport offers custom tools at a price one can afford?Thats what is cool about surfing.OK…I guess I got in to the epoxy argument but I have some knowledge on the subject(although I am not an expert like Greg).There was a big glass shop in Florida (Spectrum) that jumped on the epoxy thing and went in to fairly large scale mass production.They plugged away for a couple of years and finally figured out that the boards were not that much better.They still snapped,dinged,sucked water and dented just like a poly board.Outside of that the epoxy laminator came down with blood cancer resulting in a lawsuit that was settled out of court.I don’t know all of the details on this…the guy was treated and is OK.I like what Ambrose said in his post about the “rocks”.It sums it up fairly neatly. RB

Ok but my point is not just to say that just epoxy is better but there are other materials and construction techniques that will make a stronger board. Yes poly works well because we have had 50 years to fine tune it.

So if you make a board that lasts longer and is more durable…charge more.

Epoxy isnt the only choice there are others like DHP.

There are different types of cloth.

Walk into any surfshop and your choices are poly surfboards here all with the same layup and constuction and surftech over there. Surftechs seem to be doing very well so that tells me the customer wants alternative choices.

23

Yup, That’s why we are all still playing with wooden tennis raquets, using our rotary dial phones to call the phonograph repairman (I met a kid the other day who didn’t know why you say “dial” when talking about phone numbers. I’m still disoriented from that one…) and writing these messages to each other in smoke signals.

Hell, if the aerospace industry has the kindness to develop newer lighter materials, the free market system has the goodwill it takes to make them cheap, user friendly and available, and the wise but creative boardbuilders posting on this site work out ever better ways to configure them, I’m gonna use them to build my boards.

My third board is an epoxy. It’s very similar in size, shape and weight to a poly board I have. I have been abusing it, to see where it fails. Part of that abuse involves handling it roughly, which is good for kicks. I will tie my leash on, then run down the beach for example. I will usually just pitch it headlong into the back of my truck, also gets a laugh. Well, the other day I took out my poly board, and kinda forgot, and winged it into the back of the truck. Smashed the nose down about an inch, with splintered glass and stringer. !$#!%#$%!

Therefore, based on that one observation, I am going to say that Epoxy is superior in every aspect of board construction, and that the flat earth society can have their old WWII technology.

nothing like talkin a little smack to liven up a debate hee hee

24

If you managed to throw one of my wooden boards into your truck, then your truck is going to suffer! :slight_smile:

25

The fact that epoxy has been around for so long and has not taken over the market tells the story. Most of us consumers want a board that is going to go like hell right now, we’re not that concerned about its durability. Poly boards break more easily, but not often if you have them constructed for the power range you intend using them in.

Basically, to take over the market, a new system has to offer everything we have now in poly boards plus something extra, nothing has done it yet, but we live in hope that we can one day surf ultra light boards in munchy waves without going bankrupt!

26
Quote:

The fact that epoxy has been around for so long and has not taken over the market tells the story. Most of us consumers want a board that is going to go like hell right now, we’re not that concerned about its durability. Poly boards break more easily, but not often if you have them constructed for the power range you intend using them in.

Basically, to take over the market, a new system has to offer everything we have now in poly boards plus something extra, nothing has done it yet, but we live in hope that we can one day surf ultra light boards in munchy waves without going bankrupt!

I dont think that tells the whole story. Epoxy of 20 years ago is not the same as todays epoxy.

Much of the market is driven by what Kelly Irons Tudor rides.

Much of the industry is content to copy what everyone else is doing. And in my estamation seems to be afraid to do something different.

The industry complains about surftech and yet offers no alternative.

27

No, I don’t either. I think that the inertia inherent in the industry makes up for the advantages that epoxy offers. It costs money to switch systems, to learn new techniques, to get new suppliers, to educate customers, and some businesses would just go tits up altogether if the market underwent a fundamental change to a better product.

So it’s in their best interest to resist the change. Remember, market forces produce a product that sells well, not necessarily a product that is built well. Educating yourself well as a consumer is the best way to bring those two types of product closer together.

“Don’t believe the hype!”

–Flavor Flav

wells

28

Perhaps the short board revolution can provide a lesson… in the mid-1960`s meaningful change began on an individual level, then transferred to the grassroots, with the mainstream surfboard industry being the LAST to change. Some board manufacturers did “go tits up altogether” precisely because the market underwent fundamental changes.

“Some people change when they see the light, others when they feel the heat.”

Caroline Schoeder

29

Simple, COST and Image.

30

Well said by all.Perhaps the main problem is in the foam.We only have two choices,either polyurethane or offshoots of buiding insulation.Maybe there is something better out there.Then again cork may be a viable alternative.I Brought that up two years ago.The stuff is light,shapeable,doesn’t suck water,ding resistant and is avalaible in sheets that could sawed and glued into a blank just like Balsa.Some of the hollow wood guys like Paul Jensen have use it for rails with pretty good results. RB

31

you can lead a horse to water, only to stand there and watch it die…

anyone who actually has enough experience to know the difference , knows full well there is no comparison…

and yet i hear comments from crew with no real experience , they just quote a story they heard, or another anti epoxy propaganda comment…

i once had a board traded in by the 2nd owner, it was 3 years old , we cleaned the wax off ,buffed it and stuck it in the shop , a guy came in looking for a board picked that one up and said perfect , the chick in the shop couldnt find the board order form that sits in the office with new board stats and information on it …she comes out to ask me ,

i say thats because its second hand,both her and the customer mistook it for a brand new board…

add that to your collection of stories…

eventually the tide will change, im just glad im on something that floats when it does…

regards

BERT

32

Change is in the works.

I’ve heard that shortly the govt here in the States is going to be installing air quality monitors in the surfboard factories and glass shops.

They will be monitored monthly. When they come back and see the quality is bad they will close the factory or shop.

The effort is being made to facilitate an easy transfer of technology right now. The east coast is all ready to shift. The West coast is being readied too. For the last two years Greg Loehr has been beating feet all over California making friends, teaching his methods, and helping the industry giants come up with new ideas how to make money from epoxy technology.

There is more than one industry giant, so a shift in power may be in order. You may see one guy known for one thing now selling something else, and that will be the beginning of a new giant. But the way it’s looking right now a lot of good will come down the lineup for surfers. I’ve you’ve seen the issue of Surfing with GL’s new torsion box board with parabolic stringers you will understand what I mean. That’s just one of many new products GL along with others have devised to make custom boards that can compete with Surftech’s durability.

Make no mistake, Randy French is doing something unlike many others who are afraid of change. I’m not going to go into judging Surftech or their product in any way because that’s a waste of time. That is for the marketplace to decide. Point is he’s at least doing something and deal with that. Surftech’s are here to stay and they are taking up a greater and greater percentage of surf shop board rack space.

Look I fear change as much or more than the next guy, but this is nothing to worry about. I prefer epoxy but I still buy the odd poly board from friends who havnt seen the light, but given a choice I’d have all epoxy. You can keep buying and wasting your money on poly boards or get a few keeper epoxies. You might as well start making the shift now and get your dimensions figured out before the crunch comes and GL’s working around the clock to fill resin orders and the industry is dealing with half the factories closed down and the owners calling a busy RR number…dont panic.

It probably wont happen that way.

In FL you have Sam Barker(Resin Research #), Steve Forestal(Coda), Glen Klugel(GAK), Rich Price(RPD) to name a few all doing epoxy. In NJ you have Paul Baymore (FLY).For any of these guys epoxy is either the only way or it’s effortless to shift.

Final word. The industry has been driven by a young demographic: 16-25 yr olds.

Everything has been done to facilitate their wants. I dont suppose anyone here thinks that that age group knows what’s good for the planet or the industry. That is why we have a govt. So the special interests of a few can be mediated in favor of the needs of the many. One year to a 17yr old is a lifetime. So board life is a relative term. Yet we let them create demand. They dont know any better. Most of them that is. Point is, not everything can be left up to the market to decide. So now it’s up to Govt to force the issue because air quality standards must be met.

Look at two other industries that first fought then benefited from govt regulation. The auto industry and the HVAC industry. Heck, engineers and chemists need work too. The chemists made R-34 and R34a and other refrigerants that outperform Freon. They even came up with one I can drop on top of my 4x4 F-250’s R-12 system without changing a thing and it’s colder! And cars are much safer, cleaner and get better gas mileage. Where’s the downside? Plus, there are more custom car builders than ever and paint shops are busy an clean!

The surf idustry is in a rut and has ben for a long time. It’s time for some new blood.

33
Quote:

Where’s the downside? Plus, there are more custom car builders than ever and paint shops are busy an clean!

I think a lot of the resistance you read to new surfboard construction technologies, especially here, can be directly related to your comments above. The whole car and A/C analogy is great. The key thing here is in your words: “custom car builders” and “busy paint shops”. Cars and automotive systems now are much cleaner but nearly impossible for someone to maintain themselves, compared to the recent past (20-30 years ago). You have to pay someone else to do it. If you currently run a hand to mouth business you may not see where the investment money is going to come from.

To a 17 year old, of course, 30 years ago was probably somewhere around the time of the dinosaurs. But forget for a moment actual chronological age. I wonder these days if maybe 50% of current surfers were surfing before Surftech…I suspect the baseline parameters of surfing perception have changed. If a huge percentage of new surfers have never known a world prior to Surftech etc., then their notions of surfboard construction and materials today might rival that of the newcomers who just missed balsa and never knew anything but foam.

Change happens with or without us. Everybody wants clean environments and most people want safe working conditions. What so many of us not in the surfboard construction business see when it comes to change in the workplace is bad management decisions made for top level profit, instituted poorly and usually by people who have no vested interest in the business or productivity, increasing their workload for no compensation.

Say the word “change” to someone who actually has to produce results on a daily basis and I’ll show you an initial skeptic. Show that person in concrete detailed terms how it can be implemented, its cost, and potential savings or profits in time and money, and above all the practicality…then you are on your way to conversion.

34

same thing is happening down here…

check out the pic…

its my letter from the enviromental department…

i came up clean …but man did they put the pressure on …you can see from the contents they mean business…and i only use a little bit of polyester for making fins , plus my repair guy uses a bit , thats it…

if i was a full fledged poly user id be freaking…

no one wants to put up with crap anymore…

either move to a 3rd world country or go bush…

or go for styrene free…

regards

BERT

dam smartass file weilding shiny shoed bureacrats…

you should a seen this office boy in his nice clothes inspecting my dust collecter room …he came out covered in sanding dust…and his buddy rubbed past a wet board freshly filler coated, got resin on his jacket…

35

What epoxy does (or will do) is open our industry to ALL materials available. That’s the real essence of the change coming. Today there are many materials available to board builders that will build better boards and what we’ll see in the end is a competition between manufacturers to build a better product. More knowledgeable builders, about composites, will translate into better boards. This is what happened in the 60’s when the popout came out. The custom builders revamped and shut them down by making better product with the same materials. As for today’s molded boards they are using technological advantages to build lighter, more durable product that most custom builders have yet to embrace. This isn’t anything the custom industry can’t do, and do competitively, they just haven’t gotten around to it because most are too busy right now.

We are seeing for the first time on the East coast a real impact on the industry from the moldeds. The numbers there are being effected. The smaller builders are feeling the heat there. This has not been seen in the West… yet. When it does happen, that’s when we’ll start seeing change.

What we have to mentally see is that there are no good or bad materials, just different combinations. Finding right combinations of materials will lead us forward and allow us to build the better products the consumer is more and more looking for from today’s surfboard industry.

36

Cleanlines,

sorry to hear you are sensitized to epoxy. I loved your video (it taught me a lot) and have nothing but respect for your talent. Here comes the “but” part: But, I cringed when I saw your hands drenched in resin and again when you dipped them into acetone. If that is the way you used epoxy, then that is how you got sensitized.

Gloves are so cheap. I use epoxy only and I can’t imagine glassing boards with respirator as with poly.

Someone earlier implied that if epoxy was better, everyone would be using it. I think it is more accurate to say that because the vanguard of the builders (Loehr, Surftech, others) are using it must be better.

37

I don’t recall having my hands drenched in resin.I never do that unless something really critical happens.BUt then again I have only seen the video once.I sometimes use the flesh colored surgical gloves instead of the blue colored ones.(maybe thats what you saw)About the only time I get acetone on my hands is when I am pulling tape while doing resin pins and that is clean acetone just to get a bit of pigment off my fingers…Acetone in itself is a fairly clean solvent like alchohol.Its when it gets saturated with styrene that it becomes nasty.My senstivity to epoxy is a result of using West Epoxy in woodworking 20 years ago.I did not know what we know now.Someone told me that resins like Gregs are much safer than the West products.I don’t want you Guys to get me wrong about the epoxy thing.I am not stupid nor am I a “Dinosour” as some folks have called me.When I first got involved in this conversation I was promoting advanced technology,not putting it down.The only thing I said about hand layed epoxy was that it was not that much better than poly.(as compared to molded boards)Nor am I defending poly…basically both systems are Fred Flintsone technology.I hate it when folks take stuff personally and start ranting and raving.Greg has it together and gets his point across like a true gentleman and scholar.

38

this is interesting.

the basic arguments seem to be:

  1. poly boards don’t last as long/aren’t as strong as epoxy or molded boards.

  2. epoxy is safer and easier to use (?).

  3. epoxy boards are lighter and stronger than poly boards.

and the epoxy guys are going nuts that manufacturers aren’t on the bandwagon, and, neither are consumers…when it’s so logical to want epoxy rather than poly.

so, maybe logic isn’t applicable?

I haven’t worked epoxy, but my understanding is that shaping and glassing techniques are similar to working with poly, but different. so different techniques require different skills and different equipment. i’m a backyard builder, strictly friends and family. so why would i want to change?

There are manufacturers in this area that have skilled employees and are putting out an excellent poly product, and doing very well. why would they want to change?

think about the time between say 12 years old and 22 or 24 years old. how often did your body change? and how often did you change how you looked at things and went from style to style of: clothing…vehicle choice…music…etc… you get what i’m saying?

the majority of surfers are in that age group. look at the media…to whom do they cater? exactly. exactly that age group. except for the old fart longboard mags (snicker).

so with those guys…everything changes all the time. so why would you have a board now that is just like the one you had 6 months ago? jeez. 6 months ago you were 5’6 and 140. now you’re 5’10 and 175. or…you were a pudge at 220, but now you’re 185. or long boards were the best, and only the best. but now…airs, get them airs.

so why is there such an emphasis on longevity, for manufacturing, anyway…when the customer base requires rapid change?

the downfall of the techs (molded boards) is that they can’t customize to the individual. oh sure, they get their base sales from newbies and tech heads. and that’s fine…for them. but you can’t tell the boardworks dealer…now i want one just like the last one except: …

so the individualized market will always be there. advancing surfers will always want change. want something new. want a board just like the last one…except…

so why don’t we want a new technology?

back to the vehicle analogy.

i can still “work on” my '90 yota pickup.

i can’t “work on” my friend’s 2004 SUV. not without a computer.

why did that change? legislation. change was forced. why would manufacturers of automobiles, heartless outsourcers of american jobs, produce, safer, more environmentally clean, 100,000 mile between tuneup vehicles? they were forced to.

so maybe that’s when we will accept change. when we’re forced to. but it won’t be because poly boards aren’t strong, or because epoxy builds a better board, or because molded boards can be customized.

because for the most of us, what we got is just fine.

and, it’s accessible. WW2 poly technology and materials are very accessible.

so if change is what is desired, then accessability is the first step. to information and to materials.

cause i can go get the materials and tools to build a poly board, and look at a video or two and make a pretty good stab at building one right now.

where’s the epoxy stuff? i don’t know? what kinda tools do you use to make epoxy boards that are different from poly tools. i don’t know. where do i get epoxy blanks…i don’t know. why do i have to glue together insulating foam to make a blank? i don’t know. what are the chances of electrocuting myself with that cutter thing that they use on epoxy blanks…i don’t know. etc…etc…etc…

i don’t know.

where’s the free video that shows what the tools are, and how to make up the tools you can’t buy? the video that tells me where the blanks are. and where the warehouses for the blanks are. and where i can get the resins. and demonstrates from A to Z how to build the new safer, cleaner, stronger, lighter, epoxy boards.

i don’t know.

but if i was a businessman who wanted to encourage a paradigm shift from poly to epoxy and beyond…i sure as hell would make one. and then i’d send it. free. to everyone who is registered on swaylocks. as a start.

but you know… i think i detect just the slighest bit of paranoia…of people caught in a double bind situation. where what they want is balanced by what they fear. so if everyone knew all about epoxy and how easy it is…

then those damned backyard guys would steal all our business. just like they’re doing to the big time poly manufacturers right now.

so maybe that’s the reason. and maybe not.

and that’s all i have to say about that.

for now.

39
Quote:

I haven’t worked epoxy, but my understanding is that shaping and glassing techniques are similar to working with poly, but different. so different techniques require different skills and different equipment. i’m a backyard builder, strictly friends and family. so why would i want to change?

I have worked with it and the process is mostly the same.

You dont have to change but why use an inferior resin?

Quote:

There are manufacturers in this area that have skilled employees and are putting out an excellent poly product, and doing very well. why would they want to change?

Excellent by what standard?

Quote:

think about the time between say 12 years old and 22 or 24 years old. how often did your body change? and how often did you change how you looked at things and went from style to style of: clothing…vehicle choice…music…etc… you get what i’m saying?

Quote:

so why is there such an emphasis on longevity, for manufacturing, anyway…when the customer base requires rapid change?

If your point is that you want to get a new board every year to change with the style you can still do that and have a much higher resale value on your old equipment.

Quote:

the downfall of the techs (molded boards) is that they can’t customize to the individual. oh sure, they get their base sales from newbies and tech heads. and that’s fine…for them. but you can’t tell the boardworks dealer…now i want one just like the last one except: …

so the individualized market will always be there. advancing surfers will always want change. want something new. want a board just like the last one…except…

Im not familiar with the technology involved but lets say they (surftechs etc.) figure out how to make a “custom board” and can get it to you in 4-6 weeks…then what? Wheres our alternative to offer?

Quote:

so maybe that’s when we will accept change. when we’re forced to. but it won’t be because poly boards aren’t strong, or because epoxy builds a better board, or because molded boards can be customized.

Tougher enforcement of EPA standards is on the horizon.

The brisk sales of surftech and others like it tells me that current surfboards arent strong enough. Almost every surfshop i walk into thesedays carry a surftech type board. I bet theres alot of shapers out there that would love to sell that many boards in that many shops.

Quote:

because for the most of us, what we got is just fine.

For me, if what i had was just fine then I wouldnt shape and would just be happy with whats there on the rack or what my shaper made available to me.

For me its not fine, it can be better, stronger, lighter, etc…

40

There seemed to be a lot of resistance to change when Messrs. Fibreglass Ltd of Glasgow introduced their range of fibreglass clothing. I kid you not I have a twelve page article on the subject entitled ‘From broken glass to evening wear’. Attached is a picture of the raw material, and one of the finished product. I thought that this might be good for a coffee break conversation!