Peter G. Makes a good point about the avaliability of epoxy materials.Do outfits like Foameze or the others sell blanks and resin?We built around 20 epoxy boards and ended up going to Melbourne Fla where we bought resin and blanks from Greg’s company (Surf Research)…they are great people and showed us some helpful things.We also bought blanks from Steve Forrestal at Coda Surfboards.All of the blanks we bought were pre glued with stringers.Steve is a Guru in the field along with Greg.Maybe if the materials were warehoused and easily gotten more folks would try it out.The hot wire thing may scare a lot of folks away so preglued blanks would probably sell better.One thing I really did like about EPS foam blanks was the flat deck and bottom.I got to roll the deck just the way I wanted to.Some of Clarks Blanks are just too close tolerance for me…basically all pre shaped.The EPS carved like butter after I bought a sanding drum for my Skil.Another thing I liked about EPS was that the dust was not as gritty as polyurethane.By the way…Greg Loehr had some unreal water based Speed Spray,no fumes, tough as nails and a nice flat finish RB
Can’t just lurk any longer! Actually the answer is quite simple. No incentive to. A “statistically significant” number of the image leaders of the industry are not making surfboards but are marketing brands. Although the relatively large ticket surfboards do help cash flow, the major margins are in clothing and accessories. Surfboards are mostly a marketing function (high visibility billboards, how else would you explain all the logos and photo incentives) and become disposable. Since the targeted market is short attention span, star worshiping youth, durability and longevity are not important. The I want one just like (insert current star’s name here) attitude drives the demand for 4oz cloth and ultra light blanks practicality be damned. I remember when 2+1 layers of 8oz were standard and 6oz was for team boards. Although we did have signature models then too.
Just as garage shapers and small to mid size companies led the way in the early seventies when the industry still hadn’t fully recovered from the short board revolution, they are leading the way now. Search them out, they (you) are the vanguard of change. The true believer/knowledgeable enthusiast is in reality a fringe component of a larger group but can still impact the whole by demanding quality.
If the question is resistance to change, consider who is resisting and if they have any impact on your personal experience/enjoyment of riding waves.
R.
I can ramble on forever on this subject, heck I can come up with a half baked opinion on just about anything.
I don’t want you Guys to get me wrong about the epoxy thing.I am not stupid nor am I a “Dinosour” as some folks have called me
Now I’m getting private e-mail about calling Cleanlines a dinosaur. What I wrote was roughly “To a guy who is 17, 30 years ago seems like the time of the dinosaurs”. I never called anybody a dinosaur! Hopefully you didn’t take it that way, Cleanlines. Nothing but respect coming from me.
I think a lot of the resistance you read to new surfboard construction technologies, especially here…
That comment wasn’t meant to infer Swaylock’s is full of change resistant morons - it was made taking into account the wide range of experience of participants including some of the most experienced surfboard builders in the world. Why would the most experienced people resist something new? They probably have better reasons based on more experience than the majority. This is a forum which can explore the various influences, like Greg’s comment (paraphrased) that a lot of people don’t have time to investigate things when they can’t keep up with current product demand or need to pump out product while the demand is there. Dialogue, folks…I’m not throwing stones!
if what you had was fine you wouldn’t shape? Etc…
could you sound any more smug and superior?
every new board is a progression, as far as I’m concerned.
the question is :why is there resistence to change?
i commented on that.
no need to personalize this, is there?
if what you had was fine you wouldn’t shape? Etc…
could you sound any more smug and superior?
every new board is a progression, as far as I’m concerned.
the question is :why is there resistence to change?
i commented on that.
no need to personalize this, is there?
If it sounded that way I apologize but that was not the intent. That shaping comment represents only my perspective and opinion.
My point is only to spark discussion/debate by pointing out another perspective.
I dont like to enguage in ad hominem/personal attacks and surely not on this board where so much valuble info is exchanged. I respect everyones opinion here and the people who post here are some of the best…
Nels…I wasn’t referring to you at all and I never took anything personal.I was just making a point about how folks in general get so fired up and start ranting and raving.Its all in good fun to me.If I keep posting around here I will soon become a “carp” rather that an “enthusiast” LOL.Hell I would rather be a Dinosaur than a friggin’ Carp any day.Peace to you my good Brother Nels. RB. (Anyone want argue about acetone now? Yee haw)
i think , the next generation of experienced epoxy sandwich board builders are still to few…
i can see the logic now in why the change is slow…
until i got on swaylocks , i thought crew all over the world were doing what i was doing…i figured if surftech are a multinational , then there would have to be hundreds more smaller guys like em …
surprisingly that is not the case…
it ends up the whole concept of sandwich boards started right here in west oz…
with the emergence of sailboards using that technique…
the guy who invented the computerised hot wire cutter was based in perth…it just ends up i was fortunate enough to see the early sailboards emerging , i knew straight away what the potential for surfboards was…
and i was lucky enough to be inspired by the guys who invented the technology, and was able to access there supply line as far getting access to the computerised eps profiler,eps producers,and contacts for other supplies…obviously things dont happen by themselves…
i was able to develop my own techniques more applicable to surfboards…
trevor wright of sailboard systems once said to me " man i handed you the ball and you just ran with it"…
i can see now that unless guys like me and the handful of others who a familiar with the concepts of sandwich contruction and have the hands on experience of production and taking the whole package to a high output business, actually do something to make it easy for the rest of the industry and the next generation of board builders , then it will continue to be a slow methodical process of change…
i suppose the reason i get so passionate about the whole deal , is because ive seen every possible advantage firsthand…
ive seen my own personal short boards go from lasting 3 months to 5 years…
and then still being alive but not surfed as much coz i just want a new board and gets added to the collection of the quiver…so ive got 12 and 13 year old boards around that look unridden…
i look at what greg is doing , i think its noble that hes putting in the effort and leading the charge , actually helping hands on to put the new technology into the existing surfboard industry…
my own circumstances down here , is just being a little worn out with the industry…
i think its an australian way of doing things , but it seems as soon as you do anything that draws attention or rise above the pack for any reason , everyone is ready to cut you down…
so now i have a very hidden set up , no signage , locked gates , and just 2 staff …
im doing my thing and the world is out there…
so unless im willing to get out there like greg is doing , i really cant complain that nothing is happening and that the change is to slow…
i suppose im just catching up on life and the things that make it fun , and ive lost my drive to live for my business …
regards
BERT
Yo J Troy.I just had this thought that Swaylocks is like a giant international cyber Pub.I used to go to a local bar that was host to a lot of woodworkers and carpenters.We would shoot pool and argue about differen’t ways to do things and sometimes it got pretty hot.I saw a couple of guys come to blows over which was the best way to route hinges on a door.It was cool place and I still remember how many folks I met and the amount of knowledge that was floating around.Some of them are now my best friends.Cheers the next beer is on me.
It’s an interesting coincidence that guys who show little or no interest in EPS/Epoxy have never ridden one…
IMO, board weight is a very critical performance spec…
much longer durability/strength is bad for repeat biz…
PS - I was going to start hotwiring my own EPS blanks, thankfully I have a couple of local suppliers…$60/ea and I can spend more time with my little daughter…let other/pros epoxy glass for me…more time with the daughter.
…well, future materials?, future designs?, it´s ridiculous
epoxi or polystirene are so old…timber!!!for god sake…
-the WORLD is vast, huge, epoxi is better if you have the posibility to purchase the best brands…,in the 80 % of the world you dont have good epoxi or surfboard epoxi.
-in this 80% the boards made with epoxi, or with timbers or with new tech is real expensive, ´cause the dollar price…
-i think that we board manufacturers and enthusiasts in the future we deal with mega-enterprises…this holdings will try (indirectly) to isolate us…
-the man day by day, cant make a lot of things…-can´t make cars anymore, cant make houses cant make a lot of things, the only way to do that stuff is with an enterprise…or in an old way…this companies manage our pollitics.i dont want that manage my life…
Yo J Troy.I just had this thought that Swaylocks is like a giant international cyber Pub.I used to go to a local bar that was host to a lot of woodworkers and carpenters.We would shoot pool and argue about differen’t ways to do things and sometimes it got pretty hot.I saw a couple of guys come to blows over which was the best way to route hinges on a door.It was cool place and I still remember how many folks I met and the amount of knowledge that was floating around.Some of them are now my best friends.Cheers the next beer is on me.
Yes yes exactly! Spirited debate, exchange of ideas and experiential knowledge. Cheers.
Epoxy is clearly superior to polyester. Boat builders have known about this for years.
From www.redrockstore.com (a canoe building web site):
"Here is some technical data that you may find interesting regarding the differences between Epoxy Resin and Vinylester or Poyester Resins.
In the marine industry, liquid plastics, namely epoxies, polyesters, and vinylesters are used to saturate (wet out) the fibers of wood, glass, kevlar amarid, or carbon to form a fiber reinforced plastic (FRP). To create a quality part, adhesion to the fibers is the most important factor. Not all resins keep their grip on fibers equally.
Epoxy resin is known in the marine industry for its incredible toughness and bonding strength. Quality epoxy resins stick to other materials with 2,000-p.s.i. vs. only 500-p.s.i. for vinylester resins and less for polyesters. In areas that must be able to flex and strain WITH the fibers without micro-fracturing, epoxy resins offer much greater capability. Cured epoxy tends to be very resistant to moisture absorption. Epoxy resin will bond dissimilar or already-cured materials which makes repair work that is very reliable and strong. Epoxy actually bonds to all sorts of fibers very well and also offers excellent results in repair-ability when it is used to bond two different materials together.
Vinylester resins are stronger than polyester resins and cheaper than epoxy resins. Vinylester resins utilize a polyester resin type of cross-linking molecules in the bonding process. Vinylester is a hybrid form of polyester resin which has been toughened with epoxy molecules within the main moleculer structure. Vinyester resins offer better resistance to moisture absorption than polyester resins but it’s downside is in the use of liquid styrene to thin it out (not god to breath that stuff) and its sensitivity to atmospheric moisture and temperature. Sometimes it won’t cure if the atmospheric conditions are not right. It also has difficulty in bonding dissimilar and already-cured materials. It is not unusual for repair patches on vinylester resin canoes to delaminate or peel off. As vinylester resin ages, it becomes a different resin so new vinylester resin sometimes resists bonding to your older canoe. It is also known that vinylester resins bond very well to fiberglass, but offer a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers. Do to the touchy nature of vinylester resin, careful surface preparation is necessary if reasonable adhesion is desired for any repair work.
Polyester resin is the cheapest resin available in the marine industry and offers the poorest adhesion, has the highest water absorption, highest shrinkage, and high VOC’s. Polyester resin is only compatible with fiberglass fibers and is best suited to building things that are not weight sensitive. It is also not tough and fractures easily. Polyesters tend to end up with micro-cracks and are tough to re-bond and suffer from osmotic blistering when untreated by an epoxy resin barrier to water. This is really cheap stuff.
Summary - Epoxy resin has far more to offer in its ability to flex, prevent delamination, and ease of use for repairwork. Using epoxy resin leads to better quality products."
IMO, the resistance to change has to do with the throwaway mentality of surfers. It is true that young surfers are always progressing to newer, more advanced equipment, but that really is no excuse for the shameful amount of toxic waste associated with modern surfboard construction.
I also think it has as much to do with “professional surfing” which tends to promote lightweight "junk’ easily broken and destroyed as anything else. What does it matter to so called "pros’ when their discards are easily replaced at little or no cost to themselves? It’s almost a badge of honor; how many boards one can break.
So not only do we get the toxic waste generated by the manufacture of these boards, but also what happens to them when they are broken and discarded. That crap does not biodegrade. You can’t burn it. So just bury and forget about it, leaving it to the next generation (and the generation after that and the generation after than and…) to worry about and deal with (not unlike nuclear waste). But hey! We had our fun, you know!
But the real thing about this attitude that pisses me off is that it is so hypocritical. I really don’t want to hear about how surfers in general are so environmentally conscious as long as this crap is going on. They couldn’t give a flying you know what about the nasty materials their boards are made of as long as they perform to the artificial expectations promoted by corporate/competitive surfing.
Sure epoxy is not perfect from an environmental standpoint, but polyester is far worse. And even worse are urethane blanks!
You build a canoe, boat, yacht, etc., to last a lifetime and then some. Surfboards should be built with the same philosophy in mind. The industry either needs to advance (with new materials) or regress (return to wooden boards).
Of course, this will probably not change until and when petroleum becomes not only increasingly costlier but increasingly scarce, and the cost of modern surfboard building materials becomes extremely prohibitive for all but the wealthy few, and only those with the ability and know to make their own boards out of wood are left in the water (which may actually be a blessing in disguise…less crowds)!
Canoes huh? How many forests are being taken down for boats, houses and woodcrafts?
Where do the scraps left from making one of those wood boats go? (Burning them is just as bad as putting them in a landfill)
When those boat guys strap one of those “canoes” to the tops of their cars what particularly nasty chemical substance do they put in their gas tanks to get to the water so they can pat themselves on the back for another beautiful but eco-friendly job done?
When your kids reach the consumer age they want what Kelly Slater rides, and the whole ready-made surf trip, they don’t want to learn how to make an ancient wooden surf board and knit a wet suit from rubber tire strips - no matter how appealing ambrose makes it sound. Regress??? - are you going to ride to the beach on a horse? I suppose we need to either start using epoxy or start putting blocks of ice in the refer so the meat don’t spoil.
The Machine needs numbers to survive. Invest in a shaping machine and you better hope that designs are fads - that don’t last and fads are designs - that kids gotta have and pray every night that boards are throwaways. If you build a “lasting for eternity” board you just shot yourself in the foot.
Epoxy use will become prevalent and the machines will be fed, but don’t think that boards - and for that matter boats - will not be thrown away just because of a material paradigm shift.
I’ll be out back asleep for awhile…
I agree with you, except that timber boards are not a regression, but a progression.
Hello G in M,
As a matter of fact, timber is a renewable resource which can be milled using very low tech and environmentally friendly methods. We use plantation grown or recycled timber. Waste timber is biodegradable.
It is not the case, in my opinion, that the kids always want, or will always want, to ride what Kelly Slater rides. The present competition driven thruster mania is a temporary abberation driven by clothing corporations. My kids go to the beach and enjoy riding big wooden boards (Patrick, who is 15, rides a 12 foot balsa) They have tried tiny thrusters but don’t like them, and they are constantly commenting on how poorly those foam chips perform in the water. Nor do my children have any interest in surf magazines or surf industry hype. Who are you to say that kids don’t want to make wooden boards? Mine do!
If the ‘Machine’ needs numbers to survive then let it die!
Becoming an apologist for the toxic throwaway board industry is a hopeless task, as it is a sinking ship that you are joining.
Hello Roy…
You’re never gonna give up are you? OK. You win…
I’m just going to call that bonehead up. Dum-de-dum. Yeah, hello - Roy Stewart - yeah I’d like to purchase some plans for my son and I. Yup. I was thinking the 18’ “Ball Buster” for my son and the 24.75’ “Man Killer” for myself. Yeah, wait for four weeks? No problem, dude. That will give me a chance to demo the back fence to use for “timber”.
Wow! This goes together a lot easier than I thought. I wonder why more people don’t buy these wonderful plans from that nice man. The building was a breeze and after only 64 hours of man labor we have these amazing wood boards to show for it.
Come on son, lets tie these beauties to the top of the Sienna and go down to the Newport Pier to try “The Glide”.
Jeesh - the parking lot is too tight for the amount of board thats hanging out front and back. I’ll just slip into this parking space next to Jim’s classic Woody. Oops. That’s gonna cost me, and Jim doesn’t look very happy either. Darn. I’ll just spread the plans out on the hood so everyone can see how easy these are to craft. Jim, now you don’t need to rip up my plans. Loser.
Ok son, put on your lime green wetsuit and your Gath helmet - we must be safe from our heavy timber creations. Wow - with the 15" circular rocker this board paddles like a charm. Everybody must be jealous cause all eyes are on us son! Let’s sit outside where we can catch a powerful breaker. Turn this thing around, a couple of strokes and I’m gliding. No - it can’t be - the nose is pearling. I should have opted for the 20" elliptical alternate rocker plan for an additional $5.00. And the goat-gut leg rope that Roy sold me gave away! Oh horrors. Boy that board can really clear out the crowd. “Hey, you should be wearing a helmet like us!” Losers. I’ll just paddle out again and, hey what’s this, no one else out near us? Let’s paddle over by the contest area, son. Those corporate machine shaped thruster clones won’t mind a little competition. Hey you idiots - foam is for dinosaurs - wood is the future!
Everyone will want one of these for sure. Did you hear the cheers that went up in the crowd when we pulled away?
‘Right on’ Ghostly! . . . How about a ‘New Wooden Board Era . . . breaking down Resistance to Change’ cartoon for the winners ? ( Please )
How many dinosaurs had to die to make your precious foam?
Interesting anecdote. After living for a few years in the South Pacific, I returned to So Cal one cold June for a brief visit. On the drive down from LAX to SD I noticed that all along the coast the lineups were full of black clad figures sitting in the water. Interesting thing though, was that there were no waves (unless you classify blown out knee high crap as surf). However, this didn’t seem to make any difference to those great unwashed masses. I think it would be a fairly safe guess to say that many of those in the water were “riding’ the latest, hottest, high performance boards the surf industry has to offer. I also think it would be fairly safe to say that most of them wouldn’t know the difference between their “sticks” and a piece of driftwood.
So I killed the dinosaurs for my 8’5" backyard shape? I don’t remember, but if you say so.
Whoa - Retroman - Ease up big fella, I’m on your side.
My son and I are developing a board that is made from old car hoods that is pounded into perfect molds of the shapes from other famous shapers. Then welded together with clean burning oxygen torches and filled with the gas from abandoned refrigerator and air conditioning units to seal that bad stuff away for eternity.
Our marketing slogan? Put the bad gas in your surfboard - not in your wetsuit.
I agree, wood is good, hmmm…driftwood would be better, and when the day comes when ALL nations are replanting their forests and we are using only renewable resources…and recycling…and…
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/renewable_energy/page.cfm?pageID=90
Is the picture attached the day you drove down? I think I saw you on the overpass at Trestles…
How many dinosaurs had to die to make your precious foam?
Interesting anecdote. After living for a few years in the South Pacific, I returned to So Cal one cold June for a brief visit. On the drive down from LAX to SD I noticed that all along the coast the lineups were full of black clad figures sitting in the water. Interesting thing though, was that there were no waves (unless you classify blown out knee high crap as surf). However, this didn’t seem to make any difference to those great unwashed masses. I think it would be a fairly safe guess to say that many of those in the water were “riding’ the latest, hottest, high performance boards the surf industry has to offer. I also think it would be fairly safe to say that most of them wouldn’t know the difference between their “sticks” and a piece of driftwood.
Some people think im crazy but I actually miss surfing California…We dont have any true point breaks on Oahu…well actually theres Makaha…at 10-15ft not really my thing.