Rich Harbour sees no benefit to using epoxy - do you agree?

One of the glass shops that Rich went to is HDX. We hope that Rich decides to introduce epoxy into his line up, but he is a) VERY, VERY particular about his finished product and b)does a LOT of R and D BEFORE he introduces a new line.

I can say this, Rich and the team riders were extremely interested (not to say that they’re still not) and very informative with feedback. The two riders I spoke to had both good and not so good experiences with the EPS 1.5 lb B bead EDRO foam blanked boards. The common comment was, “why does the deck crush like this”? Maybe we didn’t use enough glass, maybe a patch? Who knows. But they also had similar issues with the boards that THEY glassed that were clark blanks.

Regardless, the fact that Rich took enough time, interest, and money to check out alternative foam and resin speaks VOLUMES for us epoxy converts.

BTW, Did I ever thank you for the business Rich? If not, THANKS!

I am making balsa boards so my take on the matter may be a bit different, but I would never ever consider using polyester. The advantages and superiority of epoxy over poly are just so obvious and numerous, and include:

  1. Strength. Epoxy beats poly hands down in every single way. Tensile, compressibility, flexibility, etc… (I had a very heavy board leaning up against a tree and the wind blew it over. It landed squarely on a concrete sidewalk. I know a poly glass job would have suffered mucho damage. The epoxy, a few cosmetic surface scratches!)

  2. Ease of use. Much easier to mix up and work with. Longer set times. Easy to clean up (vinegar, soap and water for skin) and much safer to store (poly is extremely flammable at just over 100 degrees F, epoxy much less so at about 300 degrees F).

  3. Much lower toxicity level to both the glasser and the environment. Go to www.fiberglasssupply.com and check out the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for each. The MSDS for poly and MEKP will scare the bejusus out of you, whereas the MSDS for epoxy and its hardener no worse than some household cleansers you probably use on a regular basis. (I know, it is a skin sensitizer and there are people who can no longer be around the stuff. But I have the advantage of knowing this ahead of time and so double glove and wear a respirator to avoid any potential problems.)

  4. Cost. Epoxy may seem like it costs more, but once you work with it a bit and can calibrate exactly how much you need for a given job, it may actually be cheaper! When I use epoxy, I consider ANY drops on the floor to be WASTED, and have learned how to avoid this, wasting maybe an ounce or two at most.

NO!!! i dont agree …

lets just wait and see …

yellow tint over balsa , spray under gloss coat …

just as versatile …

whats the difference ???

the average surfer isnt aware of all the benifits yet …

most surfers only experience with eps/sandwich or epoxy in general ,is either a cheap imitation surftech which isnt designed properly anyway to maximise on the nature of the materials or a shaper whos done some experimentation …

wonder what al’s first ever p/u p/e boards surfed like ???

when changing from one medium to another you cant expect instant success …

ive been building epoxy boards for 16 years now for the first 5 i still rode conventional p/u p/e boards it took me 5 years before i could get an epoxy board to perform better than a conventional board …

i could have given up after 6 boards …

in years to come some of the arguments put forward by the conventional board builders will seem riduculous when looked back on …

remember you can edit your posts . if not your statements remain forever …

a statement may seem right by present day standards …it can become totally wrong by future standards …

so i guess we just wait and see hey …

no disrespect to all the great p/u p/e builders … but basically your not qualified to make the call even tho your opinions are highly respected , im still learning new epoxy facts and quirks everyday in regard to production procedures and techniques , combinations and so on …

spent serious time in both camps , anyone else who has spent enough time on both sides of the fence has come to the same conclusions …

sometimes its not obvious you can climb a mountain till you see someone else standing on the summit …

if you understand it , its obselete …

regards

BERT

Rich ----I am glad that you reluctantly contributed. My findings with epoxy have been about the same and I agree completly. Hd McDing

Richard ----You’re a classic! You said it all. When I read stuff that you write like that, a big grin starts to spread across my face. Hd McDing

I started working in the industrial design/aerospace/marine/automotive industry in 1983. I have built many things that are literally in orbit, have won the Americas cup, bombed Iraq (twice), set speed records, crossed the Atlantic/Pacific, concepts for Toyota/Mazda/Subaru, medical devices, etc. etc. They were all done in epoxy. Those industries all used polyesther at on time. For some reason they are all using epoxy now. And by the way Mr. Harbour, my all time favorite board I ever surfed was aTrestle special you shaped for Tom Omohundro back in the 70’s. I don’t know what it was about that board but I’ve not ridden a longboard like that since. Magnifico!

Hi Rich,

I was in no way trying to offend you, sorry if it came across that way. However, I do feel it takes more than refining designs year by year to be truly innovative. IMHO to be truly innovative you should cause a surfboard revolution rather than surfboard evolution. I don’t really know too much of your history nor have I ridden any of your boards, so I’m mainly judging from you’re website (where 7 out of 12 longboard models have mentioning of the 60’s in the model description…). In your defence, IMHO most shapers are not at all inovative and surfboard revolutions are rare.

regards,

Håvard

Offend Who? Hey I noticed your last post was at 2:00 am. Man, I hope your not losing sleep over this!

Haarvard,

1. In 1960 I put concaves on both ends of a board

2. Prior to 1963 foam surfboards had little rocker, emulating the balsa boards that preceded them. That year I shaped a board with much more rocker than anything seen before - so much that it looked like a big banana to people who saw it in the water. We ended up calling it the Banana Model and the Rich Chew, who rode it, went on to win the first USSA championship with it. Am I the father of rocker? I don’t know if anyone else was doing it, but I certainly did not copy anyone.

3. I am widely given credit for developing flexible nose rocker for a better nose ride in the early sixties.

4. In the seventies, before he moved on to become the photo editor for Surfing Magazine, Larry (Flame) Moore was the one who glued our (mostly short board) blanks in house. We didn’t trust Clark to get the rockers correct. They finally got it together so in the early eighties we had to abandon that operation. Soon we were taking more long board orders and I started questioning Clark Foam about rocker not being exactly what I ordered. I built a series of male deck rocker templates so I could check glue ups as they were delivered. I discovered that the blanks would loose rocker from narrow stringers or from too much bending. They now refer to these changes as Spring Back. I don’t know if I was the first to realize this, but I had never heard it mentioned before those templates.

5. By the mid 70’s I was experimenting with vinyl ester resin and linear polyurethane finishes.

6. About 1975 I created a set of shaping racks that were fixed to the floor and one had a rectangular telescoping tube that made the rack adjustable for both long and short boards.

7. During the late 70’s and early 80’s we (actually I did most of the laminating) glassed all of our boards with “S” glass. I later determined that, because of the memory characteristic it was more prone to deck delaminations.

8. In 1984 I developed a profiling jig that was operated by hand. These were not new to this industry, but I had never seen one that was capable of putting in “V”.

9. In the early eighties I began to add lots more tail rocker to my surfboards. I started to measure where the bend was on the boards that worked well and still use this theory today. Interestingly these numbers apply to both long and short boards.

10. In the early nineties I invented a tool that crowns the deck evenly. This tool, or one that use the same principle, is just now finding itself into a few shaping rooms.

11. In the mid nineties I saw a need for a true high performance single fin long board. After several months of experimenting with outline and rocker combinations, I realized that the fin was the one thing that was holding the design back. I began working with my fin maker, sending him new templates two to three times a month. After twenty-two refinements and more than six months of testing, we had developed a series of three HP fins, 9.0, 9.5, and 10.0. Interestingly they are not exactly alike, as you cannot photographically blow up the smaller and expect to get the larger to work. The tip wags like the tail of a fish giving amazing thrust upon exiting a turn. This fin design is sold worldwide and the fin maker acknowledges that few have ever put this much energy into developing a fin. Most single fin long boarders riding a shape with hard tail rails, find this fin improves their board, no matter who shaped it. We now have a center fin with the same concept that we have adapted for the 2+1 setups. Last year Tim Stamps, Harbour Surfboards’ shaper, created a side bite shape that has vertical foil, to allow some tip flex.

I did not invent it, but I feel that, in the past 46 years I have contributed my share of innovation into the development of today’s modern surfboard.

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In the mid nineties I saw a need for a true high performance single fin long board. After several months of experimenting with outline and rocker combinations, I realized that the fin was the one thing that was holding the design back. I began working with my fin maker, sending him new templates two to three times a month. After twenty-two refinements and more than six months of testing, we had developed a series of three HP fins, 9.0, 9.5, and 10.0. Interestingly they are not exactly alike, as you cannot photographically blow up the smaller and expect to get the larger to work. The tip wags like the tail of a fish giving amazing thrust upon exiting a turn. This fin design is sold worldwide and the fin maker acknowledges that few have ever put this much energy into developing a fin.

If you are interested in a further advancement in using a center fin that alters its geometry in toe-in to create thrust, I’d be happy to donate samples for your convenient testing. I think you will find it generates a thrust and smoothness in turning that surpasses all flex fins.

Dave Blake

This is a good discussion.I have been lurking in the background and watching it with pleasure.I too agree with what Rich has said.Rich I am interested in your deck crowning tool (or any new tool for that matter).Is it a trade secret or could you give us some input? RB

wow, rich…that was a very nice bitch-slap. bravo!

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BTW he is using surftech now as well as many other big shapers so they are starting to use the technology more, however they charge more.

i just wanted to say that there is NO COMPARISON between a custom board glassed with epoxy resin and a surftech, boardworks, or other popout. i HATE popout longboards…they’re crap.

Yes I’ve tried surftechs NSPs and the co. but if you ask me they feel crap and lifeless, however this may have something to do with PVC. I’m shore balsa would be GREAT!

Josh.

I terminated my contract with Surftech July 20, 2002.

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I terminated my contract with Surftech July 20, 2002.

and for that…i thank you.

 Anybody getting worked up here should go back and read RicardMC's reply.  Then think about it.  I don't want to get anymore people all excited, but are you surfers?  Surf how you want.  Buy want you want.  Don't worry about what the next guy rides.  I thought this forum was for sharing knowledge.  I do see a lot of it in this thread great.  But every third reply somebody is ripping on another guy's reply, or ripping on a kind of board, or on some type of surfer.  I love Rich Harbour's replys, they are cool.  Great for him and his very happy customers.  Same for Greg Loehr's.  These guys are making boards the way they want to, and the way their customers want them made.  All are happy. 

 Most of the people I know that bought surftechs did so because they tried their friends board first, liked it, and wanted the same thing.  Or it was because their friend's board purchased at the same time as their own still looked brand new after one year when their own PE PU board was beat to shit.  Two middleaged lifelong surfers that surf together all the time so they know what is going on and try each others boards.  Of course other friends would try the board and not like it.  Choice. 

 Surftechs are strong, light, and fast.  But they and any EPS core board are not good for people that will not fix dings right away.  They are not good if you are clueless about how you treat them.  They will blow up and delam if you bake them, just like any EPS board, and a lot of other core types.  Not all Epoxy boards are the same.  You can't talk about just the resin used and ignore if it is a sandwich skin or not and all the other variables.  Molded sandwich boards can be laid up a little dry inside and nobody will be the wiser until it pops or buckles.  If this does happen people that have seen inside enough boards will know it this is the problem.  Losing train of thought here. 



 Ease up, ride what and how you want to ride.  Don't fight like it is over religion, I assume most people are US or Aus. so please stop attacking people's choice.

Rich,

Thanks for staying in the saddle on this one. Those of us who grew up with you (your boards) from the 60s salute you for your ethic, tenacity, and talent. For those new guys who don’t know, I think your replies in this post evidence your “do it til it’s right” attitude that everyone should aspire to.

Last May I was fortunate enough to spend a couple of weeks in Hawaii where I paddled out for mellow sessions at the same break each morning at dawn. The same guys pulled up every morning for coffee, story time, and even a few waves. After the first week it was if I had known the morning club guys forever. One morning the guys were all buzzing about Edward’s new board. After a long wait, it had finally arrived the day before and he was to bring it to show the gang that particular morning. We all waited, as no one wanted to paddle out until we saw Eddie’s new ride. As if to arrive fashionably late to delight the crowd, he finally pulled up with his gorgeous new board in the back of his truck. Everyone there that morning was a local except me. They were all avid surfers who knew their stuff. There were old veterans who had seen it all and there were the young studs who were learning it fast, but that morning they one and all gazed with appreciation at Eddie’s brand new Harbor “Nineteen”.

It was Eddie’s morning indeed. The waves were only about waist high in gentle sets, but the perfect waves for the board that day. Had the cameras been there, no script would have been needed, as the perfect ad for Surfboards was played out. Guys that knew product, appreciating what they saw, and buzzed with the stoke that their buddy Eddie had just raised the bar. Thanks Rich for staying on it and keeping the bar high.

Richard

Rich--------I’m using the shaping rack and deck-crown tool you described. Thank you very much. I lived on the Central Coast during the seventy’s and knew a couple of guys from LB/Signal Hill that were your guys. Ed Glasoe and Steve Green. They used to bring up some of your boards. I remember a beautiful single fin Calif. Gun about 7’6". I think the interesting thing about you is that YOU like Yater and a few others kept on shaping right thru every phase of the surfboard evolution. Long, short, mid, long. Your operation may have gotten smaller at one point but it was continously up and running. Alot of guys who quit for awhile come back in name only and for the money only. I have been told that at the beginning of the Longboard retro revolution that you would have preferred to shape more progressive boards, but the demand for the retros kept you too busy to dabble in progressive shapes as much as you would have, had time allowed. McDing

Rich - I just saw one of your Banana boards, made in 1965, on E-bay that sold a while ago for over $800.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22710&item=7110006313

I think it’s very cool that you bother to spend any time with us here at Swaylocks…

Hi Rich,

that’s an amazing history. Some surely qualifies with any criteria as being innovative. I meant no disrespect, no offence at all(and still don’t), you’re one ahellofa better craftsman than I’ll ever be. But my first post (which you responded to) was in response to this:“What I sense in threads like this(Epoxy/Polyester debates) is an attempt usually by the Epoxy folks to paint highly experienced, innovative world class shapers as dinosaurs.” I still don’t see how a history that range from 10 to 45 years back countereffects this statement. But it’s all a digression, since I don’t think that’s what’s going on anyway. Why would they want to do that anyway, when getting flamed (like me) is all they get for it?

It doesn’t seem to me that anyone of the epoxy users on this forum praising epoxy are really all that involved or are large players in the industry (except for to some extent Greg Loehr, but he’s been more informative than anything else). You kind of responed with what you’ve done to test it and what results you were getting. What would be interesting tho would be what you see as the future for boardbuilding. All other composite industries(except for the low end spectrum of products) have since long ago moved away from PU and polyester. If there were to be a revolution in surfboard design in the future, would a change in materials be the best bet?

I’ll crawl back under my rock now.

regards,

Håvard