Rich Harbour sees no benefit to using epoxy - do you agree?

General Discussion
61

rich ! i have to ask the question , do you really see no benifit to using epoxy ??? or was someone just putting words in your mouth and made a presumption on your behalf ???

its understandable that when reproducing retro models you would use the same construction techniques and materials you would have used back then …

but by modern standards turning away from the use of epoxy means turning away from the future of surfboard construction…

eps and xtr cant be used successfully without it , sandwich construction , infusion and a stack of other techniques cannot be applied without it …

obviously your contribution to surfboard development in the past has been invaluable , but the reality is that anyone who doesnt integrate epoxy into there production doesnt have much chance of making further contributions to the refinement of equipment for the purpose of making a board perform better or last longer …

its also perfectly understandable that you would stop doing business with surftech …

randy’s marketing approach was very sound , by using reputable shapers and associating there labels with surftech , gives surftech a certain credibility …

but by reputable shapers putting there labels on surftechs they lose credibility in return…

a ferrari and an old dodge both have tyres a body and an engine that makes it go , the old dodge still has a place but i dont see it winning the next grand prix …

the next level of performance equipment is coming from the next generation of surfers who have or will in the future grow up with composites and new construction techniques , we havent been preconditioned by old concepts and construction techniques …

we want boards to be fast ,sensitive , loose and boost , hammer the hell out of them and not break them , we want light and strong … we want both, not one or the other…

its unfortunate that randy chose established board builders with little experience in the new technologies hes offering …

if you built a boat from steel you wouldnt use the same design as one made from wood , you would need to consider the nature of the materials when considering how best to make it function …

most of the current surftechs are a joke and most of the current shapers associated with surftech will become a joke if they dont learn to build custom sandwich boards and actually get an understanding of the materials and build some decent boards to copy …

anyone who thinks that sandwich boards wont eventually take over the market place is dreaming … there is absolutly no comparison between a well made sandwich board and a current urethane board …

just because most board builders dont understand how to use it doesnt mean its no good …

99.9% of surfers have no idea how good a sandwich board can actually perform …once more manufacturers learn the nature of the materials then you will see larger numbers of satisfied riders …

but as long as composite sandwich boards are based on outdated designs then no one will take them seriously …

if i had to ride urethane boards i would give up surfing , once you ride a high performance sandwich board you cant go back …

no comparison …

its just unfortunate that the shapers dealing with surftech have no experience with how to get performance from the construction technique …

ive read your reasons rich on why you stopped dealing with surftech and they were valid reasons …

for you personally and the type of boards you mostly build its understandable that you dont have a need to use epoxy or be pushing the limits of performance surfing …

youll see all the next improvements and design/construction breakthroughs coming from the next generation of board builders and surfers with different needs and wants …

the fact that a few old time legends of the craft dont see the need to change wont make much difference to the future of surfing …

ive had people batter my construction techniques for a decade or more then after one ride on one , they come to apologise , saying "honestly i just never knew " i get that on almost a daily basis …

even getting people who ring up after buying a 10 year old secondhand one freaking out coz they thought it was 6 months old and unridden and they couldnt believe how well it went …

the future of construction is being done already , not everyone arrives at the future at the same time , some prefer to stay in the past .

if were happy to stay put thats no reason to bag anyone who wants to progress …

rich i dont want to seem disrespectful …but i do want to make the point that the future of surfing is in the hands of the people that will be there …

everyone should respectfully recognise the contributions you have made to the craft , you are but one of many who will have made there mark and as things change many more will add to the changing nature of styles and design into the future …

regards

BERT

62

Bert.I was wondering how many hours in labour do spend on an average board?I realize that is a tricky question but just average it out.I enjoy your comments. RB

63

9 to 14 depending on size …

i could take a few shortcuts here and there but choose not to …

things as simple as a gloss finish adds close to 2 hours extra work …

regards

BERT

64

“rich i dont want to seem disrespectful …but i do want to make the point that the future of surfing is in the hands of the people that will be there …”

Well said bert. -Carl

65

I have done the following to sample epoxy resin.

PREPARING SAMPLES:

  1. To minimize inconsistency, we had 4 Clark Foam super blue blanks CNC roughed out with the same shape (H3) and length (9-0). Tim Stamps finished all 4 of them.
  2. One was laminated by me with Resin Research’s more flexible epoxy resin.
  3. One was laminated by Tim Stamps using Resin Research’s stiffer epoxy resin.
  4. They were laminated on the same day, and hot coated on the same (next) day.
  5. They were baked together.
  6. The other two boards were glassed at Waterman’s guild with polyester resin.
  7. A fifth board was shaped from EPS foam (H3 model and length 9-0) and glassed using at a local epoxy specialist using their recommended lamination schedule.

TESTING THE SAMPLES

  1. All of the epoxy boards were lighter than the polyesters, the EPS being the lightest.
  2. All of the boards were ridden for a couple of months.
  3. The EPS epoxy, which was the lightest of all, began to dent first.
  4. The two Clark Foam epoxy boards seemed very resistant to rail dings. One crashed into the concrete sea wall at the Seal Beach Pier with no significant damage.
  5. Both of the Clark Foam epoxy blanks began to dent before the Clark Foam Polyester boards.
  6. One of the Clark Foam epoxy boards began to show foam shrinkage along the stringer near the nose on the bottom. We have not been able to determine the reason for this. I have contacted Clark and they have no reason to suspect that it was caused by their foam. I cannot remember this happening to any surfboard since I switched to Clark Foam in the early 1970’s, so I would have a difficult time suspecting their foam as the cause.

TEST CONCLUSION

  1. The boards all were long board shapes. Epoxy may be more applicable to shorter shapes.
  2. Hand lay up epoxy, with 2 or less layers is not stronger than polyester of the same glass schedule.
  3. Hand lay up epoxy is lighter.
  4. More than likely, a stronger, (also heavier) substrate (possibly a Clark Foam classic weight) would make the board stronger and about the same weight as a super green foam with a polyester glass job.
  5. There are other systems coming onto the market, and I specifically refer to Greg Loehr’s new foam/stringer laminate. At present it appears to be too labor intense for us – we already have a problem with our production numbers. We don’t need something else to slow it down.

I have not seen anyone else’s test results on this thread, so I do not know if any exist.

I am not against epoxy. I have never said that. We have an EPS epoxy board shaped by Harbour Surfboard’s shaper, Tim Stamps for sale in our used board room. It is the ultimate size/shape for high performance/competitive surfing. It is our number one length for this size in polyester. The color is sprayed on the surface, and can easily be removed. It has been for sale for over two months at a reasonable price. It has had no takers. It is priced to just recoup our investment with no profits involved.

At our shop the numbers of people who request information about epoxy glassed boards that are hand shaped are very minimal. Other more pressing situations are more urgent.

1. We have a problem with delivery times in the peak season.

2. We have surfboards pictures to take and place on our web site.

3. I have a wife that wants to see more of me since I have (semi) retired. Forty five years of 50-60 hour weeks was enough.

4. I have a medical condition that needs to be addressed.

These all preclude the next test. I will do these tests. I have never said that I would not. If 3 out of 4 customers demanded a board glassed with epoxy, I would be on it right away. It is a matter of priorities, nothing else.

I have a question that relates to our delivery time. The surfboard industry has a huge shortage of high quality laminators, sanders, hot coaters, glossers, and polishers. There is a glut of shapers. I see many people posting here that make claims of knowledge and expertise in this industry. If someone were of the level of ability that is exemplified at Waterman’s Guild glass shop, their meal ticket would be written. Most other glass shops would love to have their (Waterman’s ) employees. Very good wages are paid to these workers, easily enough to support a family and work in an industry that I love. I have worked on the assembly line doing every process. I cannot say that there is any facet of the making process that I like more than the other. I enjoy sanding surfboards as much as shaping. In fact I really love pulling the trigger on the 5,000 RPM sander and flattening the hot coat. Where is all of this talent that boasts so much here? Do you guys really love it as much as I do? Please, if you are as good as you say you are, get a job in this industry; we need you!

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Thanks Rich. I know you are very detailed orientated and this experiment reflects that. One weakness may be in this variable:

Quote:

[=1][ 3]A fifth board was shaped from EPS foam (H3 model and length 9-0) and glassed using at a local epoxy specialist using their recommended lamination schedule.[/][/]

There’s a ton of variables doing EPS and epoxy resins.

Keep up the good work.

67

On my post I said, “I have not seen anyone else’s test results on this thread, so I do not know if any exist.” Have you done, or know of any tests with non Clark Foam boards that directly compare the two. It is expensive.

68

I love this thread.

That’s all.

Pushing everyone ahead. Making us think. Some have already thought, some have tried, some will try in the future, some won’t. And someone, maybe among us here, maybe from the Harbour crew, who knows…will find the true next big thing in surfboard construction.

So freaking cool to be tagging along in the knowledge circle.

69

I agree with Rich, He is making what the market is demanding. If enough people show interest he will probably persue this direction. He has also done some testing, as he say’s lets see some of your tests results. About the jobs in the industry in lamination. I worked years ago at a factory, and back then nobody wore masks, now I see everyone wearing them. Your eyes are an open membrane and an avenue for the fumes to pass through, what do you think about this ?

I am personally trying to go thinner with my boards for more sensitivity. The problem we run into by doing this is floatation and paddle. This is where new materials that are more boyant would come into play. I am still riding PU/ poly resin boards (very happy with them) and have not tried epoxy yet. DR

70

Hi Rich,

Good luck with your health problems, hope you get better soon.

If you haven’t already checked out what Bert is actually doing (which is quite different to a hand layup epoxy board), here is a link to write up he recently did:

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=183391

It’s a long thread but well worth the read.

Kind Regards,

Matt.

71

Everyone seems to be talking epoxy vs poly and clark vs. EPS, Extruded, or variations of “Styrofoam”.

All of these materials make for reasonably good and strong surfboards. All of us seem to want a magic board. One which is light yet strong, and we want it to be affordable. That is what a non-industry person wants, but does an industry person want that?

I really enjoy when people are open to new ideas and materials, putting their interests and ego’s aside. I find the guru/back yard board buider a bit more open. They are not usually worried about the time is money variable. They are driven by the hunger to find something that is “better”.

I would really like to see a new foam which is glassed with AST resin…I think that will be the next “real” breakthrough.

Blade

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Quote:

Blade

Blade,

If they are a guru/back yard builder capable of building something of quality, why don’t we have them as owners or employees of a glass shop? Don’t they love this as much as me? As I said, the fiberglass industry is starved for quality talent.

If there is something better, I would love to see legitimate test results, not talk.

I looked at Burger’s thread. It is way too much to read at one sitting, but it looks as though he has a series of rocker tables. I have too many rockers and too many lengths per rocker to make this practical. It also, at first glance, looks similar to ‘80’s sailboard construction. Once again, I skimmed over it, and looked at the pictures. This would be a good system with only a couple of rockers and sizes.

I hope you are not accusing me of, “They are not usually worried about the time is money variable. They are driven by the hunger to find something that is better". I have invested more than $2,500.00 in 5 surfboards looking for something better. I took the advice of several well respected people, who will remain unnamed, in putting together the materials used in the test schedules.

The last contact we have had with the AST people we had a laminator at the glass shop getting a rash from a DHP/acetone reaction. This laminator had laminated poly boards in the morning and cleaned up with acetone. The DHP apparently caused a rash. That was more than a year ago. Their resin was really strong, but very difficult to lay up. And we cannot have employees with rashes.

73

First of all: THANKS RICH H. Thanks for posting, thanks for being as we all in Swaylocks think a great surfboard builder should be.

Spending the time and money to try new things in the search of something better is something that isn’t usual when one have to produce a high number of quality surfboards. It isn’t usual in the surfing industry, at least.

I had 4 epoxy surfboards, all of them shortboards, all of them purchased in the search of a lighter/stronger surfboard. I also tried a pair of S-core/epoxy (Salomon) surfboards. All of them feel light, and then, even lighter on the water. All of then were really strong when hitting a rock or against dings in general, but all of them broke under a “thick” (or not so thick) lip or under my feet when landing a floater.

I have and had lots of boards made with the typical ClarkFoam/poly combination, and when they’re well done (i only knew one good glasser/sander in Europe, and he’s working on another industry now… also, he was a surgeon, so obviously he loved this) they last longer than anything else i tried. I have boards that are 6 year old and they’re shining and without dings or dents, and they have lots of hours in the water. The only surfboard made by Harbour Surfboards that i’ve seen and touched, belongs to a good shaper that take it to the water really often, and the board is in perfect condition after some years of surfing, and it’s made with ClarkFoam/poly, the board still shines, and has few small dings on it, i told the owner to let me know when he wants to sell the board and i think he’s still laughing.

So my personal conclusion is: till this moment i haven’t found a better combination than the Clark/poly standard combination, but i keep open minded.

I have to say: i haven’t tried a board with Resin Research epoxy, i haven’t tried a board made by Bert, i haven’t tried a board made with AST resin.

By the way, why some of us are so hard when judging a man like Rich that had proven to try to make better and better surfboards along the years when they’re so much surfboard builders out there selling boards without any kind of R&D???

I think with surfboard builders happens something like with the music: for some people “if he sells a lot, it can’t be good…”.

Again, thanks Rich for posting.

74

I’ve really been enjoying this trend, I’ve not posted prev because I’ve not really explored the use of epoxy yet, so could not put across a strong argument for or against it.

I’m just starting out really, but in 10 yrs time I hope to be making really first class boards. I do use PU/poly construction, but I’m still learning, and these material are cheap and readily available (UK slightly behind US and OZ in available materials) if epoxy does prove it’s self (i can get cynical if I see something as being over hyped up, I think is this too good to be true) I will probably switch, but it’s a whole new learning curve, as Burt points out when writting about the shapers at surftech, Surftechs seem to be giving epoxy a bad rep, when the blame should not be placed on the materials.

I can also see that the revolution, evolution and inovation will not stop at epoxy/EPS, and this is just (possibly) the next stage or one possible direction, the construction of poly boards is tried and tested and well established, while epoxy is relativerly new to the masses (though I acknowlege it has been around along time both in surfboard construction and ajacent industries) I think poly has reached its full potential for further developement for some time, epoxy has yet to furfill it’s full potential as a alternative material, so it is unfair to compare the two at pressent. Burt’s boards are an exaple of how good it can be, while there are exaples on the market that show how poor it can be if applied incorectly (no names), and I’m sure I was always the same when poly was first being developed.

what this trend has established for me is that it is not as simple as comparing just the qualities of the materials themselves but also thir application.

while I think that poly as a material has been fully developed, I still see a lot of room for further development in its application. and I would be very proud to own a board by Richard, who is a true craftman and inovator.

Even If epxoy does become the material of choice there will still be a market for PU boards, and the search for the ultimate magic material, (indistructable, light wieght, cheap, easy to use, enviromnentaly friendly, asetically pleasing, ect) will still continue. Although I am not ready to use epoxy or sandwich canstruction myself, (I am not really in a position to) and I think that expoxy should be given a chance. In a decades time it will be clearer one way or the other.

just a few observations from my perspective, I respect all who have contributed and helped to increase my knoweleged, I have seen exelant examples of both PU and epoxy boards and would like to see how far this can go.

Environmentaly speaking I think that in the next decade we will be forces to use more sound materials, sandwich construction may allow this in a way that PU can not affer, though hemp resin may also prove a valid development.

OK just realised I’ve spent a lot of time basically saying, (whilst trying to walk across egg shells ) not fully convinced, and also not yet accessable to myself, but still want to see for myself and am willing to give epoxy more of a chance

75

Here is my two cents…Rich thanks for the input. One of the best boards I ever owned was a Harbour short board back in the early 1970’s. I’m a small time builder who makes about 8-10 boards a month to support my habit of eating and surfing.Because I live in a surf starved area of the east coast, I must do all my glassing myself. My customers get a board completely hand made by me. I have tried epoxy on Clark foam and also had a problem with foam shrinking around the stinger. I have also used EPS foam and epoxy, both clear and with tints, and had problems with the boards yellowing quickly. I can see advantages of lighter, thinner contruction for short, high performance boards, or for high performance long boards that are surfed like a short board. Epoxy is more ding resistant for light layups. EPS board suck up water when they are dinged and usually need to dry out before fixing. I think Bert has a good alternative and would love to try one of his boards. For me it comes down to this: How important is saving a few pounds really. For the average surfer does it really make enough difference to change production techniques. Can a longboard be to light? I saw a longboard at Surf Expo that is made on an aluminum frame and glassed with epoxy and kelvar. It was light, and ugly! The salesman was telling me about how strong this board was and all I could think of is how shitty it would be to surf in windy and choppy conditions. I think there is a place for all type of surfing equipment ( including your body ) and the quest for a better board will always be with us. Its just part of the journey.

76

hey rich …

just a quick intro …

ive been self employed as a shaper since 87 started building boards for a living straight out of school in 83 …

so while i havent had your number of years in the industry , my very first ventures as a self employed board builder were to explore new materials , after having worked on a few epoxy boards in the early eighties , i was inspired , i said to my employers at the time why dont we use it , i had heaps of things i wanted to try …

my boss at the time said "if you want to try all these ideas of yours , go start your own business "…

so i did …

in 89 i started building sandwich boards , based on the early sailboards , thats what i showed on the vac bagging thread …

since that time i ventured into many construction techniques and pioneered many concepts , which to this day are still being refined and explored by some major companies , ive since moved on …

i built up a business over a 15 year period building polyester and epoxy boards side by side , exported to 5 countries , nearly 30 retailers , doing up to high 40s in peak season , the most boards we ever produced in a week was 49 , up to 20 sandwich epoxy boards a week included in that number …

ive built thousands of sandwich boards , and many more thousands vacumn bagged boards , and twice that number of polyester boards …

if i gave the results of all the tests ive done over that period i would be sitting here on my computer for months feeding hard earned information to the world …

in alot of my threads i do give certain information and comparisons to point people in the right direction …

like yourself rich a few years back decided that family was more important …

and after having had major staff dramas for a number of years and after giving some of my business responsibilities to the wrong people , decided in the end to change my circumstances and get a new premises , secure and secluded with my family close and just build 3 or 4 boards a week for my best customers …

no more wholesaling , no more staff hassles …

ive got 1 real good young guy who works with me and half his days are spent surfing with me or sandboarding with me and my kids or doing short trips away , he makes a decent living and enjoys himself as much as i do …

no more 70 hour weeks for me either …

rich even tho you might not be familiar with my work …

in a nutshell im building finished longboards that people can surf , that will bounce off rocks with out a scratch , i can drop them on the ground with no damage , i can jump up and down on them for years , they are virtually immune to pressure dings and they weigh less than the foam inside one of your boards …

ive had team riders both short and longboarders , male and female make it to posistions as high as number 2 in the world …

i cant be bothered with all the industry politics and dramas anymore , i just want to go surfing and enjoy my family , and when the right offer comes along you just might see a global change in construction being laid out for the industry to access …

im 37 now so im in no great hurry , so even tho i currently build boards in my backyard , im not your average backyarder …im booked out for a year and my short boards start at 1000 dollars …

i have a 180 m2 factory behind my house ,decked out so i dont even need to wear respirators or even get dust above my chest when i sand …

i can make a real easy living from surfboards this way , so any offers i get to deliver my technology to the world would have to top what i have now …

so while your efforts to find new direction are always encouraged , your perspective is still based on using current techniques to apply the new materials …

my construction techniques are so far removed from what you do , and my methods of resin transfer , intrusion , vacumn forming , pressure infusion , combined with computer profiling and outlining , and prefabrication of components , that unless i dropped a few hints on the vac forming and sandwich construction thread and showed where i started , then the industry remains in the dark and keeps chasing its tail around with the current methods …

if anyone wants to come down this road , then vacumn bagging and sandwich constuction ,plus the combination of multiple composite layers formed into any shape is really the only place to start to have any chance of getting to the type of stuff im doing now …

ive showed enough stuff on various threads that anyone with a little intelect can at least be pointed in the right direction …

from what youve done rich , you may not see any benifit to using epoxy …

but from what ive done , i see it as the future of durable ,lightweight , high performance surfboards …

17 years of experiments on a daily basis . continually making comparisons between every existing foam , fabric , resin , skin material , thousands of possible combinations , using vacumn , pressure , multiple atmospheres , the list goes on combining the different materials using different methods …

so its pretty obvious that with all the work ive done in this area , having someone who built 5 test boards to make a quick evaluation on a resin type just doesnt stand up …

ive probably smashed 50 boards and subjected them to every horrific scientific torture you can think of , even cutting boards into pieces and doing different experiments on each piece …

thats why i have no problem disagreeing with you rich …

cover the same ground i have then we can continue our discussion , im sure by that stage your opinion would have changed …

i hope things work out well for you health wise , take it easy , live stress free , thats my motto these days …like your self as well im also passionate about my job and dont care if im sanding , polishing or doing artwork , its all fun …

its all creative …

surfing and the industry are in good hands , theres still plenty of crew out there who do it for the right reasons …

regards

BERT

77
Quote:

EPS board suck up water when they are dinged and usually need to dry out before fixing.

This is incorrect.

EPS “sucks up” no more water than Clark Foam. Try it at home, I did. The formulation for EPS changed some time ago because the building industry needed it to. EPS is often used in floating docks.

This myth needs to die!

All dings need to dry before fixing. Moisture is no good trapped under a resin shell.

78
Quote:
17 years of experiments on a daily basis . continually making comparisons between every existing foam , fabric , resin , skin material , thousands of possible combinations , using vacumn , pressure , multiple atmospheres , the list goes on combining the different materials using different methods ....

Have any time in there for actually working on the most important thing in a surfboard - the shape? Bert, the shape is always going to be what sells surfboards. Surfers are totally happy with the current strength and weight of surfboards. What they care about is finding a shape that speaks to them and/or a shaper who they can work with that has the experience and talent to shape that magic board. And they don’t want this to take a year, nor do they want it to cost $1000.

You may be able to shape magic boards. Who knows. If so, you sure haven’t mentioned it. All your talk is about the materials and your inventions and how what you are doing is so much better than the other way. If you really feel everyone should make boards like you do, then stop being so secretive about the methods you are using. We can’t even evaluate the pros and cons because you won’t describe your current method. Have some confidence that your shapes can outperform others and then there would be no need to hide the methodology of your assembly process.

79

Youre joking right? Are you a Roy Stewart protoge?

Click on Bert’s name and view his posts…you’ll learn more about what makes design features tick more than anyone here…the S-curve post is my recent favorite.

Please refer to the original post topic and the forum rules…

Bert is right on topic!

Start your own thread regarding design if you dont like the content of this one…

Have a nice day…

80
Quote:
Start your own thread regarding design if you dont like the content of this one.... .

Who said anything about not liking this thread? This thread is great! And last I checked, we are all allowed to post our opinions. Mine is that SHAPE matters more than secretive fancy new construction methods. And I feel he’s being disrespectful to people who have proven they know how to shape great boards just because they use traditional materials.