Shit Happens: The Mystery of Paint Bleed

Industry Talk
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Surfboard construction always has its mysteries. As I recall over the years, there were times when we got fisheyes, and separations when glossing, and no matter what we did to play Sherlock Holmes to deduce what caused the problem, it persisted than cleared up all on its own!

Grant it, our system was pretty together…toilet paper filters, line filters, no contaminated sanding racks, no pnuematic tools leaking oil…on and on.

Fast forward to the future and here I am with a new mystery. Paint bleed. I decided after reading about people’s experiences using Future for reducer, to give it a go. Everythig sprayed out nice aftr playing with amounts using it straight, and also trying some combined with H20. The colors look very lively on both the PE’s and the EPS blanks. Kinda felt good to rejuvenate my color and design senses.

The problem came at glassing time. I had a beautiful mint green bottom and top rail spray that I had done on a US blank…tape off was primo…perfect sharp line. The paint was Ace Interior flat latex.

Come glassing time I used Silmar 249A UV with unsized 4 oz. cloth. Guess what? After lapping the rails (freelap) and take out to the rack and when I flip it I notice the first rail I lapped has yellowish tinge (not a lot, just enough to wreck a perfect job) onto the deck. The lapline is still perfect. The big mystery is the second lap…clean and clear!

This being said…all things being equal…well…NOT!

Hindsight is always crystal clear on how to avoid this but I wonder why the 1st lap bled and the 2nd didn’t. I was using Future to SAVE work, not create more.

Also, now I haveanother board (the EPS) with some of that same mint green on it with seveal other colors…epoxy resin this time…maybe no problem? Maybe the styrene in the UV caused the problem on the 1st board? Maybe it wasn’t stirred when I first started glassing the UV board? Maybe my little compressor was weak shooting one (or more) of the light coats promoting bleeding ?

Maybe I should shoot a straight Future sealer over the EPS board? I doubt the epoxy will resist bonding to a moderate Future sealer?

Shit happens.

Ideas?

Thanks in advance.

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Hi Deadshaper…

FWIW, I should be asking you for advice on board making but I’ve done some limited spray using acrylic floor finish as a reducer/fixative agent. Since you asked… I only have used basic tempera water based poster paints thinned with the acrylic.

My best results have been multiple light coats with complete dry time in between coats. Final prep was a light clear acrylic floor finish sprayed and allowed to dry before laminating.

My hunch is that using acrylic floor finish with tempera basically makes a water based acrylic. To my surprise, the colors on boards done long ago have stayed fairly bright.

If Herb Spitzer is around and reads this, he has done more than anybody I know with the acrylic blends. Hopefully he can answer as to the latex based paint. I have not used it before.

I hear you on the here today gone tomorrow thing.

When you mix pigment with epoxy, what do you use to filter your resin? I’m down to kidney stone filter cones that are so fine they plug up really fast - I go through several for a single lamination batch and still get tiny flecks of pigment that smear in my lamination. Crappy pigment, or ???

Thanks!

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Most likely the yellow pigment in the mint green mix used by the by the paint manufacturer was an Azo yellow which is notorious for doing what you have described.

A week ago I had a custom order where the customer sent a Behr paint chip from Home Depot to match. The color was a golden yellow and he wanted the whole board painted solid. So I got a quart of the Behr latex flat paint mixed at Home Depot and used it to spray the board. It glassed out fine since the whole board was a solid color. I then used the left over paint to shoot a red to golden yellow full fade on another board. On that board the yellow “bloomed” on the lap when glassing the bottom. Damn!

Normaly I use Nova Bismuth yellow and never have a problem with the lap discoloring. Whenever I’ve used the Azo or Anhydride yellows which are sometimes called Hansa Yellow at art stores, the laps discolor every time.

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Quote:

Hi Deadshaper…

FWIW, I should be asking you for advice on board making but I’ve done some limited spray using acrylic floor finish as a reducer/fixative agent. Since you asked… I only have used basic tempera water based poster paints thinned with the acrylic. ********Thanks for the nod…takes years in the trench, ya know? Still, there’s stuff like this that comes up to make life “interesting” (?) When I look back on the slight yellowing, I don’t think it has anything to do with the UV or Future…maybe it wouldn’t have happened with a seal coat of straight Future to seal it…live and learn. Luckily I can fix anything…I’ll have to mist a white rail fade along the lap once sanded then reseal and fine sand again…PITA! (Pain in the Ass). Once step forward, two steps back.

My best results have been multiple light coats with complete dry time in between coats. Final prep was a light clear acrylic floor finish sprayed and allowed to dry before laminating.

My hunch is that using acrylic floor finish with tempera basically makes a water based acrylic. To my surprise, the colors on boards done long ago have stayed fairly bright. ******I think you’re probably right on this tempura acrylic combo. will ote, I did some tempura in red and it looked great on the foam (MDI blank) and like crap once lammed. Now I’m shooting (panels) with latex over the sand coat before glassing (sigh).

If Herb Spitzer is around and reads this, he has done more than anybody I know with the acrylic blends. Hopefully he can answer as to the latex based paint. I have not used it before.

*******Hope he sees this…the other guy that is super right on is Atomizer…he also has a very deep knowledge base that I grok with!

I hear you on the here today gone tomorrow thing.

When you mix pigment with epoxy, what do you use to filter your resin? I’m down to kidney stone filter cones that are so fine they plug up really fast - I go through several for a single lamination batch and still get tiny flecks of pigment that smear in my lamination. Crappy pigment, or ???

Thanks!

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Hey there…I replied but hit quote instead of reply and there’s only one **********reply of mine that showed up…ironcally it’s under your mention of Herb Spitzer and I mentioned Atomizer who is very deep in knowledge…and sure enough, he just replied to me.

Yup, Atom…a lot of your past posts I have learned thru the years…yet, as in this instance, there’s always room for a surprise or two. The lap isn’t discolored actually…and the defined tape line is as perfect as when I pulled the tape. That’s why this ‘hurts’ so much…it was Xmas when I pulled it and then this crappy yellow release onto the white deck.

Sure, I could’ve reversed the glass schedule if I knew it was gonna do this, then again, I’m not Nostradamus (sp?)…or presealed with a clear when it was still taped…I guess I fell for a sense of false security reading that the Future mixed in was helping sealing while spraying…are the comments about color not pulling off on color to color jobs also too “optimistic”?

Since I have your attention…that mint green I used on the EPS, should I seal it with a clear coat of Future before I lay up???

I may know a lot, but I’ll never know as much as a man that is ever curious and willing to learn. I am an ever drying sponge with great willingness to drink of life…Confucious?..No…Dead Shaper.

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Too bad is all I can say…separation is the culprit then. Not much we can do in hindsight.

So riddle me this. Would a clear coat of Future over the painted area have solved the problem? Obviously clear on the white foam wouldn’t matter because the separation is coming from “Mintw World”.(follow the yellow brick road…follow the yel…er, you get what I mean).

So should I shoot a clear coat over the EPS board painted with the mint? I don’t want this one to muck up because it was a lot of hard edge tapeoffs and color to colors, etc.

Ace has been good up to til this…I’ll be careful with colors that have yellows in them.

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On EPS/Epoxy you don’t have the crystalization issues you have with PU/PE when your paint coating is too thick. I personally don’t use future in my sprays. I use Nova Matte Medium as my clear binder. Thats not to say Future doesn’t work- theres plenty of folks in the forum that swear by it. I guess if you get enough of a barrier beteween the paint job an the epoxy by sealing it with future would probably work. Too thick of paint skin is always an issue with PU/PE construction with getting crystalizations (which is a kind of delam). This is my second year painting on EPS. I’ve painted probably over 2000 so far. I yet to see one returned delaminated because of the paint job.

Back in the late 80’s and early 90’s when XPS foam was the new foam for Epoxy construction that was a big issue.

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That’s a lot of boards for two years…damn!

I’m not having crystalization problems…exerienced that back in the early 80’s when we were shooting lacquer…esp. red, black, purple, maybe navy blue.

I’ve never had a delam on the EPS blanks either. In fact sometimes I think back to what we painted in the 80’s and I’m surprised some of the Jackson Pollock knockoffs didn’t delaminate.

Those were painted with pure acrylic, and some of them were gobbed on like Van Gogh.I mean thick puppies.

The Extruded blanks were a different story altogether. But this was not due to the paint jobs. This was R Factor and gassing. We all had high hopes for extruded foam…originally from Dow. It was 2.2 lb. density, very consisent. It resisted water better than Clark or any other foam around. Compression strength was excellent. In fact I just repaired one that a guy had me fix that he called his magic LB I’d shaped in '83. The bottom delammed and he couldn’t get anyone to tackle it. Interestingly enough, I looked at the deck and it didn’t have one pressure dent on it…this is a 9’1" longboard…strong foam!

On the down side, bun size was very limited (not the big block size of EPS)…so we had to draw all new profiles for hotwiring and rocker adjustment. The foam would tear usng planer blades and the abrasive drums weren’t around yet. I learned pretty quickly to mow them more backwards than forwards to reduce tearing and shape at a decent pace. Once in awhile I’d notice the stuff was hitting me with hot melted material…it’s plastic man.

After having a brand new quad I’d made for myself blow the bottom lam. off it (never got to even ride it) I decided to tackle the delam/gassing problem I tried increasing the mechanical bond by using a sawtoothed squeegee used for raking thinset before laying tile. I then sealed with epoxy microballoon mix…long story short…they still gassed and delammed. You are right about the paint in one way" the darker the color, the more they gassed and delammed.

You didn’t really answer me about sealing the painted EPS blank with Future or whatever before lamming it…so I guess I’ll give it a go. Otherwise I imagine the sure fire way to do it is seal the top and bottom with epoxy then go ahead and glass it. If I do it within a reasonable time schedule I shouldn’t have to scuff sand before layups.

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Yeah, I remember the torn up XPS blanks. Those weren’t much fun to paint. I’d ask the shapers to get a drum in their planers. Most didn’t.

I dont see any reason why presealing the paintjob with a coat of epoxy wouldn’t work.

BTW the rep from US Blanks was by the other day showing their new molded eps blanks. The beads are smaller (like coffee cup size) and fused tight. The guy says you don’t have to seal it and it doesn’t gas when laminating. I was very impressed with how unform it sanded.

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Yeah…they’re pretty nice looking…superfused, C Bead size, virgin EPS so you’re not dealing with post production expansion and a lot of tear out. I used big billets of .5, 1.0 and 1.5 lb densities on mostly sailboard production and some surfboards.

There was a shortboard model I made during that period using EPS that I called the “Back t the Future Model”…this was because the outline was reminiscent of the Vee bottom outlines and also featured a forward vee that I rolled more into a round bottom. To give it squirt I induced a straight (rockerline) behind the back foot and flattened it going out the tail. The roly-poly part was right over your back foot…it actually went beyond being round from rail to rail, meaning that I made it rounded 3 dimensionally, like a ball where the foot was placed and called it “Ballbearing” .

The first time ever going down a face at Rincon the board felt like it was so loose it would spin out, but the flat and induced straight just drove the board forward once the rail and side fin set.

These boards were usually 1.0 EPS, pigmented white opaque, 7’1"x21-1/4"x3". Nose was an inch narrower than the tail…in the 14’s and low 15’s. I had demo boards and people would come back and rave about them…lucy loose but with drive. They also thought they were hollow…which, for the most part, they were.

As a final note on this, I went to see the movie “Back to the Future II” on Thanksgiving Day Premiere. About 15 minutes into the film the Professor, Michael J. Fox and his girlfriend go to the future and park the DeLorean down a back alley. As they are talking, there is a painted wall behind them that says “Surf Vietnam” with a scantily clad girl holding a surfboard. I looked at the board and my logo was on it, just the way I do…Stop lettering (same font Brewer was using). They kept flipping back and forth for a few minutes during the conversation and the board is just there in every frame! In the later formatted DVD’s and VHS’s the “F” in Fowler is cropped out…

Eventually I found out how it showed up in the movie. I had made a BTF board for one of the Chandler sons (the family that owned the LA Times). They had a vacation house on the private beach at Sand Point down near Carpinteria. After the summer they took it down to their house in Pasadena and that was when a set designer for Back to the Future saw the board. He decided to paint it into the set.

I never paid any placement money and my wife at the time (who had been an actress) said I could even hassle them for “nuisance money”…I never bothered. But imagine my surprise.

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Always clear coat them before you glass them.

Boardbumps

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I presume you’re suggesting clear coating with straight Future to seal it (create a barrier coat) so the yellow won’t migrate. Yes?

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Howzit DeadShaper, I have found that clear coatng doesn't really stop the resin from affecting the paint. The styrene in the resin will disolve the clear coat, That's one reason I never use it. I think Atomized may have the answer since different paints will have different properties that can affect how the resin works on the paint. Nova Paint is probably the best I have ever used for painting boards with little or no problems. Aloha,Kokua
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Kokua, thanks for your input…I used Nova a lot when I was doing the full factory deal and totally agree that it is the quality paint. On the flipside, we painted a heck of a lot of sailboards (and surfbds) at the Underground using an E Series Evergard paint from the DuLux paint store right up the street from the old Yater factory and another block from me. The E Series was flat latex but I’m pretty sure it was exterior.

Anyway FWIW, I clear coated stringerless EPS board with 100% Future, let it dry thoroughly, then epoxied the deck with no bleed even while working the resin into 2 double lapped 6 oz. Warp. Maybe it was an early B-Day present.

We always want to save time money and labor in this biz, and yet there are always variables that pop their heads in to make life er…interesting?

P.S.

I hope some China man is tearing his hair out due to mysterious paint bleed and other such fun events. Where do all their rejects go?

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Landfill

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I have noticed you’re a man of few words…perhaps even less than that!

                  minimalism can be beautiful
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I’d suspect perhaps the paint was the culprit. Flat interior latex - flat paints dry the slowest, and interior latex paints will have cheaper binders.

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I used flat latex housepaint extensively throughout the 80’s on many surf and sailboards with nary a problem…however, as much as my feeble mind can recall, it was exterior, not interior. I’m pretty sure that was my approach, because I wanted paint that was more fade resistant.

I wasn’t hip to the binder aspect, but I don’t really know the difference between interior and exterior formulas given the same color. As far as drying…there is no question it was dry: 3 light coats with 90 degree dry heat with plenty of dry time between coats and glassing 2 days later sort of eliminates that. After airbrushing a gazillion boards you tend to know the drill.

What atomizer said about the hanza yellow is the real deal. No doubt it separates when coming i contact with styrene monomer. That would explain why the epoxy didn’t was okay with the same color (as I recall epoxy doesn’t contain SM…pretty sure, call me on it if I’m mistaken).

Anyway, to put this story to bed, I ended up sanding the board then misting a yellow fade from the lap line to hide the bleed. Except this time I used a little jar of tempura yellow that I got at Rite Aid and added some Future to it. The stuff stayed on tight even when I taped over it to do a black acrylic pinline.

I could have misted white, but decided to make the coverup look like it was intentionally planned as I had the leeway on color from the customer. The board looks great and there is no hint of an unwanted event.

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I’ve also had this mystery yellow bleeding on a number of poly boards. After reading that it may be the paint itself, I tend to agree. The worst case I had was with a major repair on a LB that was acrylic painted light gray over the hotcoat then glossed. The damage involved about 12" of crushed rail. I matched the gray color using bottle acrylics (Michaels type), but as soon as the resin hit it, it began to bleed out yellow. I had allowed a couple of days drying time on the paint. Assuming it was the resin, I sanded everything off, repainted, and this time just sprayed with clear Krylon polyurethane; bled yellow again. Prepped and repainted again, this time sprayed with clear Krylon acrylic, bled again! I found that I could reduce the bleeding by using a heat gun on low to accelerate the clearcoat drying, but this wasn’t the correct answer. I wound up buying a palette of acrylics from Novavcolor, and I don’t paint anything that is a light color except with these. Some paints will bleed out certain components of their color (mainly yellows and greens) with any clearcoat that makes them solvent.

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 Howzit Pete, The first time is used a certain brand of gray paint it bled yellow also. Gray is a color that can have several colors in it to make it gray and yellow is one of the colors used. The gray that bled was a premade paint from a certain company. After that I just started mixing my own ( black and white) and never had it bleed again. What do you use to thin your paints for spraying? This is old but just using water will dilute the acrylic in the paint which will make just about any color bleed and thats why I use a mixture of 60% acrylic thinner and 40% water to thin my paint. Nova is probably one of the best paints on the market and I have never seen problems with it. One thing though, I was introduced to nova by Rick Massey who is a great airbrusher. He only thins it about 10% with water, then adds some tempra paint ( makes it dry faster). The paint is thicker than what we normally spray so he sprays at about 80 psi. Never seen any bleedage in his work.Aloha,Kokua