I have never kneeboarded before but am looking into shaping one. I am wondering why most guys nowadays seem to use thruster and quad fin setups as opposed to Georges single fin Velo style boards? Thanks for any input- ryan
I have never kneeboarded before but am looking into shaping one. I am > wondering why most guys nowadays seem to use thruster and quad fin setups > as opposed to Georges single fin Velo style boards? Thanks for any input- > ryan Worthless piece of chunk in today
s real world, built for another time and place long gone. Pretty wall hangers. Elite precise narrow range for spot-on specific point break waves. No flotation, dead neutral. Requirements for max performance were completely uncrowded, best wave on the best day at the best spot. Needed specific kind of race track, i.e. long, powerful unwinding barrels with full pull of tension off the bottom. No chance of negotiating drop-ins. Not for the brave new world. Necessity mother of invention lead directly to the edge boards over 30 years ago. They ran the course over full spectrum of imperfect flatter bumped-out junkyard waves. Yes for the real world but still no float, and couldnt compete with anything in a line-up that had any. Increasing bummer. Bottom line: realist Greeno sold Velo and all his other fav flex spoons to a collector in Cali years ago. Does not kneeboard. Builds and uses fastest flexible high speed sailboards in the world. Works on lots of other stuff, too. Dig this: custom swim fins that kick back, carbon graphite Didgeridoos, surfing underwater with dolphins. Films it all with elegant genius. Rides waves on his surf mats in everything. Beyond belief. Mysterious pure fun for the real world. The End: for kneelos, try real Fish. Lis, Frye, Pavel.
i think if you find a kneeboard shaper who has an interest in old school stuff they would be able to fill you in. single fins are definitely better in down the line pointbreaks, just sit in the pocket and trim. rather than short beachbreaks. kneelos moved to 3 fins for the same reasons that standup riders did. now with so many standup riders going back to single fins, im sure there are a small percentage of kneelos moving that way as well. because they make up a tiny percentage of the surf industry no one would here about it. ride a longboard on your knees oneday, i find it gives a totally different perspective of the wave.
I have never kneeboarded before but am looking into shaping one. I am > wondering why most guys nowadays seem to use thruster and quad fin setups > as opposed to Georges single fin Velo style boards? Thanks for any input- > ryan Marko’s got it right…also the flexi-flyers broke. I used to make them in Santa Cruz back in the late 60’s early 70’s. The foam would crush where the deck/bottom met the rail pontoons and then right in the middle of a big ol’ bottom turn, they’d come apart. But for a couple of sessions in the right waves, they were eye openers. Singles still work but don’t turn as quick as a twin fin. I never understood the thruster stuff on kneelos as you need to weight and unweight so much to get them to work. Go with a tried and true fish…keel fins parallel to the stringer. The kneelo is still the call on a thick ledgey death tube; 5’6" about 22 inches wide, pretty flat rocker and two 1/16 inch deep concaves on either side of the stringer feeding the insides of the keels. If you really want to feel Velo-like surfing in a much more versatile setting, try a mat…there’s a reason Mr. Greenough doesn’t ride a kneeboard anymore. Newbs
i think if you find a kneeboard shaper who has an interest in old school > stuff they would be able to fill you in. single fins are definitely better > in down the line pointbreaks, just sit in the pocket and trim. rather than > short beachbreaks. kneelos moved to 3 fins for the same reasons that > standup riders did. now with so many standup riders going back to single > fins, im sure there are a small percentage of kneelos moving that way as > well. because they make up a tiny percentage of the surf industry no one > would here about it. ride a longboard on your knees oneday, i find it > gives a totally different perspective of the wave. A totally different perspective and level of performance. George Greenough has said that the lines of energy in a wave
s face are much more easily seen when kneeling, but he also adds that it all comes together when riding down low (as on his surf mats), with your face 6-12 inches from the surface of the water. He says its like sighting down the barrel of a rifle: "it always works best when youre closest to aiming down the line at eye level." Thats a right good analogy to think about. Quite different a one from the manner of them who bully force their own lines on a wave irregardless. The pure line seems to be a forgotten idea nowadays.
i think if you find a kneeboard shaper who has an interest in old school > stuff they would be able to fill you in. single fins are definitely better > in down the line pointbreaks, just sit in the pocket and trim. rather than > short beachbreaks. kneelos moved to 3 fins for the same reasons that > standup riders did. now with so many standup riders going back to single > fins, im sure there are a small percentage of kneelos moving that way as > well. because they make up a tiny percentage of the surf industry no one > would here about it. ride a longboard on your knees oneday, i find it > gives a totally different perspective of the wave. I kneeboard about 40% of the time here in SC. The conditions and location dictate whether I kneeboard or standup. One poster was correct, the ideal kneeboard wave is a vertical long wall on which you can maintain the speed necessary to kick the board into gear. Obviously it’s impossible to compete with longboards for waves and dealing with shortboards is easy but you tend to piss em’ off because you can take off way later and deeper than the average guy. And as manueverable as shortboards are, kneeboards can turn circles around them. This is why most shortboard guys hate surfing with kneeboarders. All it takes is a little pressure on the inside knee and BAM, 180deg turn. This sort of thing is possible on the Romanosky quads I surf on. I have an old (30 Yrs) single fin pintail kneeboard I used to surf the point at the “Lane” in the 70’s and that thing was scary fast but didn’t turn worth a damn (hard down rails all around). On a straight down the line speed run it felt like you were airborn most of the time. Critics of kneeboarding are usually guys like “sceptic” who have never given it a try in good waves. It’s a different beast that has to be experienced and I’d have to describe the kneeboarding experience as being more “in the wave” than on top of it.
I have never kneeboarded before but am looking into shaping one. I am > wondering why most guys nowadays seem to use thruster and quad fin setups > as opposed to Georges single fin Velo style boards? Thanks for any input- > ryan Marko is right -Velo and the others required peeling, uncrowded waves, plus they don’t float.also, the displacement hull boards don’t work so well with multiple fins.the twin finned boards are generally down railed, flat bottom boards, very different from George’s.
what about the 2+1 setup that longboarders use, that might be the answer if you want a single feel with turnability.
I kneeboard about 40% of the time here in SC. The conditions and location > dictate whether I kneeboard or standup. One poster was correct, the ideal > kneeboard wave is a vertical long wall on which you can maintain the speed > necessary to kick the board into gear. Obviously it’s impossible to > compete with longboards for waves and dealing with shortboards is easy but > you tend to piss em’ off because you can take off way later and deeper > than the average guy. And as manueverable as shortboards are, kneeboards > can turn circles around them. This is why most shortboard guys hate > surfing with kneeboarders. All it takes is a little pressure on the inside > knee and BAM, 180deg turn. This sort of thing is possible on the Romanosky > quads I surf on. I have an old (30 Yrs) single fin pintail kneeboard I > used to surf the point at the “Lane” in the 70’s and that thing > was scary fast but didn’t turn worth a damn (hard down rails all around). > On a straight down the line speed run it felt like you were airborn most > of the time. Critics of kneeboarding are usually guys like > “sceptic” who have never given it a try in good waves. It’s a > different beast that has to be experienced and I’d have to describe the > kneeboarding experience as being more “in the wave” than on top > of it. “in the wave” thats it! an all over under the water!!! yeah I luv it whe a big ol fat longboarder stands up real sloooow and flat out tanks a cripple whos trying to take off late way far back in the hook!! But the most FUN is to watchem try and take off on those stormy jacked-up bumpy days and bounce and slam their guts-knees-teeth out trying to get across a big lump!! whatever you`re thinking its wrong. The modern thruster wasnt never made for use by guys who have to ride on their knees. face it ya just cant pump that thang the way it was intended. STANDING!!! KABLAM!!
what about the 2+1 setup that longboarders use, that might be the answer > if you want a single feel with turnability. The 2 + 1 setup might be the answer to STANDUP thrusters for those who want more flow in contemo equipment…and certainly for mid-lengths/hybrids. As for kneeboards, with my very limited experiences, I would prefer a single fin or 2+1 to the simple twin fin I have. If I went for another twin I would have to go with a fish - something wider-tailed to spread the fins out more. I would share the concerns about thrusters and the inability to “pump” them. Quads look like valid variations on the fish with the wide tails I’ve seen on them. Nels
“in the wave” thats it! an all over under the water!!! yeah I > luv it whe a big ol fat longboarder stands up real sloooow and flat out > tanks a cripple whos trying to take off late way far back in the hook!! > But the most FUN is to watchem try and take off on those stormy jacked-up > bumpy days and bounce and slam their guts-knees-teeth out trying to get > across a big lump!! whatever you`re thinking its wrong. The modern > thruster wasnt never made for use by guys who have to ride on their knees. > face it ya just cant pump that thang the way it was intended. STANDING!!! > KABLAM!! Besides your worthless comments. You can’t read. I said nothing about a thruster. Read “quad”
Wow, thanks for all the responses. I surf a quiver of standup’s from 5’10 to 10’, and also one of Dale’s mats. George is a hero of mine and after seeing film and pic’s of kneelos in the few years I’ve been surfing I want to add one to the quiver. I’m looking for something that will work in 2-5’, not so powerful surf. I understand Veloesque hulls and probably single fins in general are not a good idea for this type of surf. Any advice on dimensions, rocker, bottoms, rails, fins, foil, etc. is much appreciated. Not looking for the silver spoon but a place to start. Thank you- ryan
Wow, thanks for all the responses. I surf a quiver of standup’s from 5’10 > to 10’, and also one of Dale’s mats. George is a hero of mine and after > seeing film and pic’s of kneelos in the few years I’ve been surfing I want > to add one to the quiver. I’m looking for something that will work in > 2-5’, not so powerful surf. I understand Veloesque hulls and probably > single fins in general are not a good idea for this type of surf. Any > advice on dimensions, rocker, bottoms, rails, fins, foil, etc. is much > appreciated. Not looking for the silver spoon but a place to start. Thank > you- ryan Ryan, at one point, I built and tested hybrid fish/flex spoons: a slightly narrower and pulled-in, deep swallow, a concave deck with tuned flex in the last 1/3 of the board, soft and thin, just enough flotation to paddle and rest when necessary, twin keel fins with the wide bases only glassed to the board in the front 25%… resulting in improved sensitivity and performance over a wider range than my conventional (solid foam and glass) fish shapes. Still, there were plenty of questions/problems to work through. No matter what you choose to ride, it
s always wisest to create whatever works and feels best for you in your waves. If you follow that course, rest assured youre moving the same direction as George. Dale
Besides your worthless comments. You can’t read. I said nothing about a > thruster. Read “quad” Please don
t want to come off like Im agreeing with sceptic. all the knee riders I ever see which are not many cant surf well at all when its all real bumpy or tiny breaking like crap. theyre out looking for the “perfect” wave like everyone else has to do to have fun surfing. Ive tried it- cool in good waves. I hate to say it but sceptics right you cant pump. twin, tri, quad, single, whatever- yes climb and drop, do bottom turn, trim out, cut back, off the lip but not the REAL pump weight and unweight as like pumping on a skate board. Ive seen knee guys try to imiate regular surfers and all they do is shift around on the deck waving arms. Coming out of a nice tube ride with their face almost flat on the deck, their butts up in the air- sorry, BAD funky style guys. what I`m truying to say is all that and gyrating around on a powerful fast wave isnt the same thing as standing up and generating speed with the lower body and legs. Not even. Only regular surfers on the shorter sticks can make that stuff happen and can do it even in lame junk, too. humans got to have legs and not only knees. but its still cool, whatever you think works I guess.
Please don
t want to come off like Im agreeing with sceptic. all the knee > riders I ever see which are not many cant surf well at all when its all > real bumpy or tiny breaking like crap. theyre out looking for the > “perfect” wave like everyone else has to do to have fun surfing. > Ive tried it- cool in good waves. I hate to say it but sceptics right you > cant pump. twin, tri, quad, single, whatever- yes climb and drop, do > bottom turn, trim out, cut back, off the lip but not the REAL pump weight > and unweight as like pumping on a skate board. Ive seen knee guys try to > imiate regular surfers and all they do is shift around on the deck waving > arms. Coming out of a nice tube ride with their face almost flat on the > deck, their butts up in the air- sorry, BAD funky style guys. what I`m > truying to say is all that and gyrating around on a powerful fast wave > isnt the same thing as standing up and generating speed with the lower > body and legs. Not even. Only regular surfers on the shorter sticks can > make that stuff happen and can do it even in lame junk, too. humans got to > have legs and not only knees. but its still cool, whatever you think works > I guess. Shawn- Your response is typical who someone who lets their bias show through (sceptic?). Granted, kneeboarding is a “niche” sport that required good,fast waves to fire, but so is shortboarding. Shortboards have their limits. You see anyone out at “Mavs” on a shortboard on a big day? “Nope” at least not for long. A kneeboarder has surfer 20’ Mavs successfully by the way. And for style, just like the butt wiggling form of alot of shortboarder rider (bad form guys!) there are stylish kneeboarders and there are dorks. As for pumping, kneeboarders get their speed from “reading” the wave and putting themselves into the power, no need to pump if the waves are good. If the conditions are weak you won’t see any good Kneelos out. Dorks maybe, same with shortboards. I shortboard a good part of the time and love it. I also kneeboard at time under certain conditions and love it too. I’m also considering getting a mat. Open your mind to other ways of surfing. You contradict yourself by ragging on kneeboarders but end by saying its “cool.” Obviously, you really don’t think so. Don’t be a hypocrite.
Please don
t want to come off like Im agreeing with sceptic. all the knee > riders I ever see which are not many cant surf well at all when its all > real bumpy or tiny breaking like crap. theyre out looking for the > “perfect” wave like everyone else has to do to have fun surfing. > Ive tried it- cool in good waves. I hate to say it but sceptics right you > cant pump. twin, tri, quad, single, whatever- yes climb and drop, do > bottom turn, trim out, cut back, off the lip but not the REAL pump weight > and unweight as like pumping on a skate board. Ive seen knee guys try to > imiate regular surfers and all they do is shift around on the deck waving > arms. Coming out of a nice tube ride with their face almost flat on the > deck, their butts up in the air- sorry, BAD funky style guys. what I`m > truying to say is all that and gyrating around on a powerful fast wave > isnt the same thing as standing up and generating speed with the lower > body and legs. Not even. Only regular surfers on the shorter sticks can > make that stuff happen and can do it even in lame junk, too. humans got to > have legs and not only knees. but its still cool, whatever you think works > I guess. Please check some of the photos on this site http://www.shoal.net.au/~rslater/ and see for yourself where kneeboarding has really been progressing for the past 20 years. I agree that seeing kneeriders trying to perform modern maneuvers in outdated equipment is like watching longboarders trying ride their boards like shortboards, it’s just not pretty. But lately there has been some young riders like Albert Muñoz in the US using modern equipment and totally ripping, he actually came 2nd in Australia at the World Kneeboard Championships this year, but guess what was he riding? a David Parkes kneeboard from Australia. Sadly some US kneeboard shapers are still stuck in their old designs and that’s what you are seeing in the water. I ride a nicely foiled 5’10" tri-fin with the fins set way up…and yes it can be PUMPED!
Please check some of the photos on this site > http://www.shoal.net.au/~rslater/ and see for yourself where kneeboarding > has really been progressing for the past 20 years. I agree that seeing > kneeriders trying to perform modern maneuvers in outdated equipment is > like watching longboarders trying ride their boards like shortboards, it’s > just not pretty. But lately there has been some young riders like Albert > Muñoz in the US using modern equipment and totally ripping, he actually > came 2nd in Australia at the World Kneeboard Championships this year, but > guess what was he riding? a David Parkes kneeboard from Australia. Sadly > some US kneeboard shapers are still stuck in their old designs and that’s > what you are seeing in the water. I ride a nicely foiled 5’10" > tri-fin with the fins set way up…and yes it can be PUMPED! PC- I was in Kona this last August doing both standup and kneelo surfing (the few days we had surf) and there was a young Aussie kneelo from Wollogong who just tore the waves apart. He was doing inverted slams(airborne,completely upside down) off the the lip, spin 180 deg’s back into the break then cranking a hard roundhouse turn to shoot out from under the white water. I talked to him a little and he described how big kneelo surfing is in Oz. Very competitive too it seems. His board was quad, round pin about 5’ 6" I’d guess. And YES, he pumped the hell out of that board.
Shawn- Your response is typical who someone who lets their bias show > through (sceptic?). Granted, kneeboarding is a “niche” sport > that required good,fast waves to fire, but so is shortboarding. > Shortboards have their limits. You see anyone out at “Mavs” on a > shortboard on a big day? “Nope” at least not for long. A > kneeboarder has surfer 20’ Mavs successfully by the way. And for style, > just like the butt wiggling form of alot of shortboarder rider (bad form > guys!) there are stylish kneeboarders and there are dorks. As for pumping, > kneeboarders get their speed from “reading” the wave and putting > themselves into the power, no need to pump if the waves are good. If the > conditions are weak you won’t see any good Kneelos out. Dorks maybe, same > with shortboards. I shortboard a good part of the time and love it. I also > kneeboard at time under certain conditions and love it too. I’m also > considering getting a mat. Open your mind to other ways of surfing. You > contradict yourself by ragging on kneeboarders but end by saying its > “cool.” Obviously, you really don’t think so. Don’t be a > hypocrite. Sorry man I don
t mean to be a hypcropite but thats what Ive seen and tried myself. Its all good. No offense. That George dude in Crystal Voyager had cool style for a knee rider. What I guess I meant was the knee riders Ive met all seem to be locked into some weird mental zone. I mean all these tripped out angry or alternative types. Definitley out there but cool. Im interested in learning more about those mat things too. I guess its all about whatever you think it is. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
PC- I was in Kona this last August doing both standup and kneelo surfing > (the few days we had surf) and there was a young Aussie kneelo from > Wollogong who just tore the waves apart. He was doing inverted > slams(airborne,completely upside down) off the the lip, spin 180 deg’s > back into the break then cranking a hard roundhouse turn to shoot out from > under the white water. I talked to him a little and he described how big > kneelo surfing is in Oz. Very competitive too it seems. His board was > quad, round pin about 5’ 6" I’d guess. And YES, he pumped the hell > out of that board. he RODE the hell out that board! for sure for sure. lets see that aggro cripple “pump” his bad ol self across the dead flats of a choppy 2’-3’ burger like Kelly Slater!!! sorry but it aint the same thang without the lower body an legs free to act as powerful steel springs. If he was doing what you said, then it was more the shape an power of th e wave than him bobbing his butt up and down on his quadilliac. thats no biggie cause spongers been doing that “pumping” kind of crap for years an they also try to say its the same thing. cold hard factz for all who cant stand it: BELLIES AND KNEES AINT GENERATORS. “its whatever you think it is”, what a crock of bubble headed new age B.S.
Sorry man I don
t mean to be a hypcropite but thats what Ive seen and > tried myself. Its all good. No offense. That George dude in Crystal > Voyager had cool style for a knee rider. What I guess I meant was the knee > riders Ive met all seem to be locked into some weird mental zone. I mean > all these tripped out angry or alternative types. Definitley out there but > cool. Im interested in learning more about those mat things too. I guess > its all about whatever you think it is. Sorry about the misunderstanding. And aggro- “I want every wave” shortboarders aren’t “angry” and “weird”? Where have you been surfing? Kneeboarders typically are pretty mellow and often surf in out-of-way breaks because we tire of battling with the standup folks. We can also handle breaks that may intimidate standups. Breaks that have dangerous impact zones( on rocks, cliff faces) because we can easily punch out while hanging onto our boards and kicking out the back. It’s just a different way to ride the waves. Check out the website another poster suggested to see what high performance kneeboarding is all about.