I go at least 50 miles per hour on a good wave and I’m not going to let any laws of science ruin that for me.
Hello Easternpacific,
The idea that surfers get “such short bursts of speed while dropping” is ignoring the fact that because the gravitational potential energy of the board and rider are constantly being replaced by the lifting action of the wave, the board and rider can be ‘dropping’ for as long as the wave lasts. This is what happens when a surfboard is in trim, apparently poised in one position on the wave face. A board which is trimming in this way is dropping continuously because it has a glide path below the horizontal, and it is also being lifted by the wave, which is why it does not lose height. This is exactly what happens with a glider riding an updraft of air. A board in trim is thus limited in speed only by time and friction, nothing else.
The pursuit of measurable speed has entertained people who travel on water for a very long time. Windsurfers and yachtsmen use measured speed, and no one tells them to just say that ‘Fast is fun and leave it at that’ . There is no need to participate if you don’t want to, but there are a few people who find surfing speed interesting, and they are entitled to investigate it if they wish to. Statements like “they were going light speed (40mph!), multitudes faster than Roy . … .” only adds fuel to the fire!
Yours Faithfully, Roy Stewart.
so much for innerspatial speed lets talk time speed the time suspended in wave time some callit tube time…but all weightless time will do…this constitutes exceeding the speeds encumbering these psuedo scientific speed claims being that the speed trials site has not yet been disclosed by the independent testing organ of the International Society for Surfboard Speed Verification…applications sent to swaylocks can be forwarded from the new swaylocks thread titled ISSSV .when the bugs have been worked out…fees will be worked out after dates are set in stone…Comode- doore Horatio ambrose Horblower fleet representative and diviner of water sources in all hemispheres.Thank you
Quote:
The best posture that the surfer can adopt at high speed is prone, as this position minimises drag. Windsurfers are discovering that drag from the air passing over the body of the rider is limiting the top speeds which can be achieved. Surfers do not have to stand up to hold a rig, and are thus able to avoid this source of drag.
I do have a question regarding speed and drag. If a surfer is prone is he/she “surfing”? Same with windsurfers, if they are prone aren’t they sailing? I would think that to measure speed (if anyone really can), the drag a surfers body creates is a necessary evil. Perhaps a speed suit?
The bottom turn is really a stalling technique for peaky or bowly large waves - leftover from the days before the thruster - to kind of get down to the bottom of the wave and take a look at the peak, see how it is walling up and either head for the lip or slot in mid face or straighten off. In the days of “Greg Noll” the surfer would stand so far in front of their control surface (the fin) that they could only stand there and hope that they made the bottom to be able to redirect with a rail. In the movie “Riding Giants” - in the Makaha sequence you can tell who will make the wave just by whether or not they go to the bottom of the wave. In the Tom Parrish single fin era these boards were faster than most waves so a bottom turn and stalling mid face were valid moves to stay with the wave. I’m not so sure a bottom turn is really so useful with a thruster it’s just an elegant nod to the trailblazing forefathers, except for the paddle-in big gun thruster surfers at any big wave spot, cause their boards are so long. You will see the tow-in surfers drop down the face only to wait for the wave to set-up or if they have outrun the wave. In fact if you see this movie you will see EVERYTHING that this thread discusses very clearly.
Another clue to what happens at speed is when the old longboards were towed behind a boat. The rider is literally over the air not water and the tail and fin are the only things in water. Cause Phil Edwards understood this he could control the board by pivoting the tail while the “rail turners” could not lean the board for a turn - they would just fall off.
Personal experience? “Dad you always do a bottom turn… the pros just do a little pivot turn mid face.” Damn little whippersnapper. He was totally correct. The speed from the thruster is taken from the most critical part of the wave - the pocket.
Watch most any new schooler surf a thruster - if they haven’t surfed a “retro” shape the bottom turn is usually not in their things-to-do list.
ps I think Dave Kalama’s tow-board is a twin fin not a tunnel fin?
Daddio said,
“Watch most any new schooler surf a thruster - if they haven’t surfed a “retro” shape the bottom turn is usually not in their things-to-do list.”
Ah, such a shame too. I come from the generation between the ones you mention, when the thruster was making things possible that weren’t before, and good, hard power surfing was the norm. Guys like Dane Kealoha, Caroll, Occy, Gary “Kong” Elkerton, Alan Sarlo, Johnny Boy Gomez, Sunny Garcia and others with really thick legs helped form my idea of a good time in the water. To this day, I value watching a good hard carving lip-bash over some cute little lip trick/fancy kickout. Tricks are for kids. And you can’t do a really hard top turn without a really good hard bottom turn. In my own surfing, sometimes a hard turn off the bottom is an end to itself–If you’re in anything over head high, it’s the most G-s you’ll ever experience on a surfboard. Sometimes, I enjoy closeouts, just so I can get all that speed, lean it way over, hand skimming the water next to my shoulder, head cocked sideways like in waterskiing to keep the binocular vision working, straining, huhhhhhhgh, as the g-s push me into the board…
Sorry, this flat spell has left me hallucinating…
hello Stash, Dale is the man to ask about whether or not a prone rider is surfing. Or you could try Rodntube’s Paipo forum. I imagine that prone riders believe themselves to be surfing. I am not sure about windsurfers . . . how does a person windsurf lying down? Regarding special suits, I am sure that the colour known as ‘Flamingo’ offers less drag than other colours, partricularly black. I am working also on the idea of a suit which has cloth inserts beneath the arms, these will generate lift in true Birdman fashion. It remains to be seen whether or not this will require surfers to strap in to hold themselves down. If so it could be that the Birdman speed generating factor will be the realm of the tow in surfer. Roy
I imagine that if you wear a suit such as that and allow yourself to get spit out of the tube at Jaws, you’d probably be going faster than a tow-in surfer…maybe 90% of C.
Hopefully ISSSV will be there to verify.
I am working also on the idea of a suit which has cloth inserts beneath the arms, these will generate lift in true Birdman fashion. It remains to be seen whether or not this will require surfers to strap in to hold themselves down. If so it could be that the Birdman speed generating factor will be the realm of the tow in surfer. Roy
You could probably talk to Shawn “barney” Barron about that one, I saw him out one day with a spiderman themed suit, with webs that went from above his elbow to under his armpit. He was getting a fair amount of lift, too, but something tells me it wasn’t the wings…
Hey Roy!
Agreed maybe Dale could weigh in. It seems to me the surfer would have to be standing in order to compare speed to another standing surfer. Take speed skiing for example which had a short life in the olympics (too bad) or down hill skateboarding. If you are prone you are luging (sp?), different sport. As far as a suit is concerned I was thinking of the speed suits that swimmers wear or speed skaters. Although, not in that tacky red white and blue. Maybe, salmon and teal??? ( I hear salmon is this years red, LOL) I can see it now, the night before the speed surfing challenge carefully shaving every hair off your body for less drag ala Lance.
FYI my references to whether a particular activity is surfing or not is not a bash on said wave riding preference, just trying to qualify what is what.
Lates
“I do have a question regarding speed and drag. If a surfer is prone is he/she ‘surfing’?”
Such questions are based on the inclusive assumption that “surfing” is defined as “standing while riding waves”.
This is a contrived limitation that ironically excludes much of surfing`s own history… as well as nature itself, where no examples of “standing while riding waves” are found.
But we do see marine mammals and other sea life which frequently “ride waves” in horizontal positions.
Of all life on earth, human beings have the highest potential for freedom through intelligent adaptability. We stand, sit, kneel and lay. We dream and create.
I believe the path to fully understanding that precious freedom is through celebrating all of wave riding`s expressions.
photo by Wayne Levin http://www.kochgallery.com/artists/contemporary/Levin/
I’ll buy that. This morning two sea lions were making me and my buddy look pretty bad…
The ultimate speed stance:
This was visualized in a dream. It will work best with a big, long single fin or tunnel fin type board.
Saw a 5" round hole in the middle of the front third of your board. Now paddle out and catch a wave from two to twenty feet. Take-off and walk to the nose. Turn and face the tail. Now position yourself exactly as Mikolos Dora did in the last contest he was in. Shove your hand through the hole and use the hand gesture by Matt Biolas on page 129 of Surfing Magazine - June 2004. Your hand forms the perfect “vortex” generator for a single fin!
ps Don’t forget to shave your ass!!!
was watching the Olympics last night and they mentioned that divers off the 10 meter platform hit the water at 30 miles per hour.
Nice point of reference, I thought.
So, if you airdrop from the lip of a 33 footer at Mavericks, say, and make the drop (all the way to the base of the wave) – you should be doing about 30 mph. Maybe less, considering the air resistance of a surfboard.
Don’t forget - as the wave folds the air starts pushing you out of the tube! I think this is the “time stands still” that Shaun Tomson was referring to. Wind on the face becomes wind at your back…So flaps of material under your arms and standing might be faster than prone.
Hmmm…
Classic. I’d say he’s doing at least 53.6 MPH. Can anyone top that?
Hi Keith,
You could also be going faster by the time you get to the bottom of that thirty footer. If you free fall the whole way to the bottom, then this will get you to the bottom in the shortest possible time, and your speed will be approaching the speed of a diver. However, if during the descent your path is made to deviate from the vertical by the wave face, then it is possible to go faster than the speed gained during free fall, because although your rate of acceleration will drop as soon as you start moving horizontally, you will be accelerating for longer. Pendulum motion is a way of visualizing this.
Regards, Roy
PS Scott Bass is interviewing Laird Hamilton on Wednesday this week and asked the surfermag community for ‘ask Laird’ questions. Hopefully he will answer mine about how fast he is going and if he measures it.
Greetings to you Ghostly Machine (In),
I know of an even faster posture. Simply lie face down on the board, feet facing the front and hanging over the nose (for style), dangling the part which comes naturally through the hole for sensitive vortex generation while experiencing less air friction. Please could you draw this posture, and others for a reference ‘tool’ in Swaylock’s resources?
Regards, Roy
I can’t stop laughing - Roy!!!
Too funny. No more drawings for now… they took my crayons away and gave me a big lump of clay.
Hmmm…
I’ll make a 3d clay model vortex generator and ship it to you???
What are your specs?
Hello InMachineGhost,
My specs are variable, please use clay for your own model. On second thoughts, I think that the posture you drew would be ideal for women, while my suggestion is better for men.
Regards, Roy