Interesting comment because if I understand correctly you're seeing more builders than designers.
I'm seeing more designers than builders.
The introduction of free download computer shaping programs, the availablity of shaping machines and the glassing factories means you don't have to clean up any mess, throw out shaping and glassing cloths.
I really enjoy building seeing the outline and rocker and feeling the rails changing curve.
Glassing in ever changing weather conditions hot cold wind.
Doing it all on a computer and driving the new creation from factory to factory will give a professional finish and it is designed.
IMO even if a builder sets out building another’s template or reverse-engineers a board on hand, the cycle he undergoes to come up with processes to finish the new board also requires him to design necessary adjustments given his particular skillset, tools on hand and goal in mind. no matter the effort to replicate an existing board, the new board would still have new design and/or execution features that the original board lacks.
it’s a wonder how established board brands with multi-generations of in-house shapers & glassers can manage to deliver 1,000s of boards with the same specs year in year out considering the complexity involved in turning a board design concept into 3D reality
I dont think its a matter of who or how many are doin what.
Its just that:
1. the DESIGN learning curve is steeper and longer, perhaps infinitesimal!
2. small changes in design has more profound affects than small changes in build
3. just when you think you have design all figured out, something new comes along and surprises you and puts into question just how much you really know
The Design process is a formula. Knowing the function of each element and putting them together in a way that connects each transition that translates to a surfer actually performing the intented function of the said Design.
The imbalance is the build efforts without perfecting the thing that matters most: "The Shape"!
You can build a board many different ways. It's the shape and the design that bring out the true craftsman. All the rest is just window dressing or fluff!
In the end it's all fun even if you just a hacker like myself.
I think that I have to disagree with Greg’s original premis, on these grounds:
There are 4 stages of knowing
1 you don’t know what you don’t know
2 you do know what you don’t know
3 you know that you know
4 you have sublimated the knowledge to the point that you don’t even think about it anymore.
Most of us garage guys are somewhere in stages 1 - 3. The masters have obviously gone on to stage 4.
But what is the real difference in stages - it’s an awareness of ones own capabilities, whether its in design or construction. So here we’re being exposed to a miriad of ideas and techniques that push us to climb the ladder of knowing, by opening up to new things and at some point incorporating them into our own skill/knowledge set.
Architects are better for working in the construction trades, since that teaches them the capabilities of the materials and labor available. Surfboard designers should be also builders for the same reasons.
So I would argue that Sway’s actually increases the balance between
designer and builder, since it illustrates what others have done and
broadens our horizones - enabling new design elements to be conceived
and built. “I can see far because I stand on the shoulders of giants”.
Had to go back to see what Greg’s original premise was… Hmm…
For me, I’ve used Sways to excel my designing, by learning building skills and techniques to do so, as well as more design information than I can fully synthesize… Ha!
I’ve yet to build one board like one before - not really even close to one before. As such, I’ve explored a lot of limits, crossed over many, which has given me some parameters with in which to work on my next design.
And, as was pointed out, it’s all about what I want to do, on the waves I have to ride, and what is working for me.
3. just when you think you have design all figured out, something new
comes along and surprises you and puts into question just how much you
really know
I had so many of these, there both a blessing and a slap in the face… or the other way around.
The imbalance is the build efforts without perfecting the thing that matters most: “The Shape”!
I like.
**You can build a board many different ways. It’s the shape and the
design that bring out the true craftsman. All the rest is just window
dressing or fluff! **
word is your pretty good at window dressing and, well, fluff…
however if the build process is someones thing, i must say they can be a craftsman at that too.
But a craftsman of a high performance surfboard then “shape” is parramount!
But I can see why there isn't, if I had the magic carpet design, I don't think i'd be giving it away for free in a hurry.
Yorky: I don't know any more? With the surfers I work with compared to the logic on swaylock you have two differnt schools of thought creating some kind of disconnect? I've given away magic carpet formulas and designs to members here on swaylocks and they still don't believe it or build it. So for the pro's that lurk this site there's nothing to worry about as far as giving away trade secretes because the swaylock community has a hard time knowing what is valid or what is hype. I can give the model away that my son won $12,000 on and Post the cutting file and give it away and I bet you that one one would even down load it. I know because in the past I have done that. I have posted files of Magic boards and no one even looks at them so it's just a web site for entertainment. This is a fun site for sure. As far as the surf industry goes? It has no influence whatsoever. Just a site with a lot of options and a lot of entertainment.
Enjoy it for what it is but don't expect any magic.
Your right, I don’t expect any magic written on these pages.
There are a few good blokes I’ve meet that I skype with that are great influences that offer some positive prospects for me in the future, a couple promising PMs from crew that are willing to share also I’m greatful for.
Also its opened my eyes to a whole world of build variations, come to think about that, haveing cost me a bit of $ along the way on experimenting with materials and such, Doh!.
Also its opened my eyes to a whole world of build variations, come to think about that, haveing cost me a bit of $ along the way on experimenting with materials and such, Doh!.
I think that both of us have the same experience concerning the build variations. My vacuum set up had to be moved to my house because the glassers at our shop are just not going to explore. Sways has been great for that. Huie has been a hugh help in keeping me focused on what really matters. I think it all comes down to finding our own magic. Hopefully the bit's and pieces found on this site can make a contribution in that direction. Magic Boards are so gnarly. You find the right rocker, thickness foil, rail profiles and bottom contours then turn it into a base model. After you sell a few hundred then its a rocker change, contour adjustments and volume distribution. So the thing I have learned is to make a model and if it was magic don't change it just offer a new model.
Getting back to the imbalance issue:
Concerning design there are no short cuts. Using a cad program is only a tool and doesn't make one a designer. I have seen some of the worst designs by guy's new to cad. This is creating a type of imbalance.
To plug in numbers at 12 nose/12 tail input width at wide point move it forward or back of center then adjust length. Put the nose or tail rocker up or down. Volia = Frankinstein. So many more aspects to design. I won't go into it here at this time however I beleive some of the imbalance issues stem from the ideal that the computer will do all the design work for you. Some of the builds have been cool however some of the shapes have been interesting at best. In the end Sway will inspire but actually doing will provide the greatest advancements and help balance the inbalance.
So can a bad shape be improved by good construction
No.
** or a great shape be lost in bad construction.**
Depends on what you mean by “bad” - probably not. May not last as long - sort of bad, or it may look “funny” - depends if you care about that kind of thing…
Personally i’d love to see a lot more on the subject of “high performance shape” on sways.
Seems like there’s tons… Depends on your definition of “high performance.”
But I can see why there isn’t, if I had the magic carpet design, I don’t think i’d be giving it away for free in a hurry.
I think this happens too, but I don’t think you can find consensus on “magic” so it doesn’t seem obvious.