Yes I did see that pic. I remember Bill and his friend (can’t remember his name) were getting blasted for going on a hunt for it. Bill claimed it was nuisance shark, and needed to be eradicated. I think they did the right thing, and I don’t think they did it just for Bethanys dad, although many suggested that. I know very well how sacred the shark is to many old school hawaiians. But still, with more and more people using the ocean these days, well, something needed to be done. You remember I told you about the time I stayed at Gregg Filtzers house, and he showed us the board with the bite you know the famous one? He told us after the attack he paddled the bay to waicocos and back to get rid of the heebee jeebees. Shit, sometimes i think you locals got a few screws loose, but i understand the concept. You guys got more balls than my haole ass. BTW, middles is/was my favorite wave on kauai. Thanks for wreckin’ that for me Lol.
That’s right I remeber you telling me about Greg, funny thing is it was one of my good friends that sent out to summer break after gr4eg asked him where we surf during the summer. Gayle still surfs the Bay but Greg won’t. Actually we didn’t have any attacks for years and one thing we think is a factor was when they stopped letting people catch turtles, The Bay is full of them now and sharks love them, they bite off one flipper and the turtle can only swim in circles after that. Sorry about the Middles thing, if it helps I’ve never seen one out there.Aloha,Kokua
Kokua, Lokbox, great stories about Hawaii! Feels so far from here but i have some friends that go there every year. One of them is my neighbor and i think he use to stay at the Volcom house since he’s sponsored by Volcom, the other is in Quick.
What seems amazing to me is that any FCS rep wrote Kokua saying that he’s saying anything bad for the system… Maybe SOME people in FCS might learn to read and then they can take care of a fin system.
As you said there are some fin systems there, they work, and now the people can choose… this can’t be a bad thing.
By the way i always said that i had many problems with FCS, and its true, but i never had any problems with the plugs that were installed by me, and i’m just an amateur. So maybe FCS should make sure that all their clients make the installation as they should.
Howzit Coque, The FCS person sent me a PM yesterday and explained that he was not actually accusing me of saying bad things and it was just how he worded his e-mail. I did tell him a few things i felt the company needed to address but it concerned the installation kit tools and not the system. I was glad to get some kind of response since there is no links for contact on the FCS website. I also sent an e-mail to the cal rep and told him they need to watch Swaylocks site since there is a lot of posts concerning FCS and their system. At least we got their attention with this thread. Aloha,Kokua
Howzit LokBox, Yeah a buffet for every body. Actually the turtles are kind of a menace themselves popping up right in front of you as you are dropping in. Did you ever see the story about the surfer at Rocky Point who thought he hit the reef but he really hit a turtle and it did a number on his face like he had hit the reef. Funny when I lived on tha North Shore of Oahu 69 - 72 I don’t ever remember seeing any turtles at any of the breaks. Aloha,Kokua
Nice to see Tyler on here. For those of you who don’t know him he’s one of the most intelligent and gifted people in the surf biz. Incredibly talented marketeer and in his day quite a talented surfer as well. So now is my chance to corner him in public on some issues concerning the system.
Many years ago when the system was first presented we were one of the first to test it in the US. Many here have written long posts on the problems and much of what has been written is true. When we first tested the system we did basic strength test measured in foot pounds per square inch when the fins were side loaded. All the systems available at that time were tested including glass ons. FCS measured 8 foot pounds at failure, by far the weakest. Glass ons followed next at 12 with the other two systems, O’Fish"L’ and Futures both measured well above 25. We made the decision based on that test that we would use O"Fish"L and have ever since. In the test the failure of FCS was primarily in the tabs (which were scored to break) but also in the cups.
While many things have changed since our test and FCS has come up with some interesting installation “fix its” I still believe that the test is valid even with the changes. And anyone who thinks that a cup could in anyway equal the strength of a box or that tabs could be as strong as a base please immediately go to the principles office for a good talking to.
Placing the success or failure of your company in the hands of surfboard industry installation yahoos is a sure way to failure (possibly this is part of the reason for the FCS slide in market share). IMHO making the use of your product in the workplace as easy and foolproof as possible is the only way to insure continued success in the marketplace.
So Tyler, why not a box? Why not make a simple box with an easy installation that won’t fail no matter who puts it in? Better yet make it a single slot that removes the tab failures with a new line of fins that fills the gap between the tabs. Use the same screw set up in the box and it will still retrofit all the existing fins. The “Proset” FCS finbox. Well?
In closing, FCS has some fantastic product. They have done more to advance fin design than any other company. They have single-handedly changed the industry and made fin systems the standard. It seems to me an easy fix to eliminate the one weak link the system has endured from the beginning.
Howzit Greg, One good thing about this thread is we finally got their attention and can contact them through their profile by PM. I just received a PM from a neglected shop owner that after this thread was started his no show rep showed up at this shop. Just goes to show that we here at Swaylocks can make a difference if we try hard enough. Seems the only FCS person who monitored this site is in Austrailia and we have been in touch the last couple of days since I started the thread. Getting a little warm in Tucson these days, Havasu is up in the 120’s now. You being from a humid State originally makes getting used to the extra dry climate of AZ a little tough. Last time (2001) i was there my lips were chapped for 2 weeks before I climatized. Aloha, Kokua
Yea, AZ is a bit warm this summer. Over 100 for 30 days straight and 114º yesterday. But I was just in FL in June and the 95º, 95% humidity was WAY worse. Don’t know how I lived with that all those years.
Hopefully the FCS guys will begin to listen to the factory guys. Surfboards aren’t rocket science and simple ways to fix what are in essence good products to begin with is such a smart way to run a business. My business today is suppling, just like them. Making things simpler to use improves the finished products quality and durability. This is what many material suppliers don’t get. Twice as hard to use equals half as good finish quality. Making things, like in this case instalation, complicated leaves too much room for error. Humans are basically lazy and will generally go for the easy way. Make the easy way the correct way and everyone wins.
Howzit Greg, Compared to some fin systems FCS is easy to install but I’ve seen guys really screw it up. I know one board builder that won’t wipe the plugs( same with leash cups and fin boxes) because he feels if he sets off the mix hot enough it will melt through the mold release. Others don’t make sure the holes are cleaned out or not use the tool to make a good bond to the deck. That’s why I have always said " there’s no bad systems only bad installations. I have come up with some tricks and tweaks for installing which seem to make plugs not fail.
Talked to my brother yesterday and 122 degrees, but with the low humidity and low dewpoint he was only using the Master cooler and got the house temp down to 80 degrees. When I was ther for a visit in 68 they had one day at 133 degrees, now that’s cookin.Aloha,Kokua
Greg, thanks to you and Jimmy for the many kind words they really mean a lot to me.
Cornered in public… HMMMM. I think the technical stuff is probably better left to someone with a stronger background in it than mine. Anthony one of our industrial designers has been monitoring this thread and I’m sure he would love to communicate with you offline. I gave him some background on your extensive experience with board building and alternative materials. Your points have a lot of merit. I’m not too sure about the stress testof the and why it came in so low for FCS.
Personally it seems like in the real world we are as strong as anything maybe stronger. I would love to talk to you offline about some of the stuff. I’m going to be traveling a lot the next few weeks and I probably won’t be able to monitor this forum. I would ask anyone writing to me to please not take my absence or lack of response personally I’m going to be MIA a bit.
You’re certainly right about ease of installation being a key to a good finished product. That argument for one system or another seems to go as many ways as there are people putting in fin systems. Most people seem to really like whatever their used to.
The two plug design has survived and prospered because as you said it is easy to install. Perhaps just as important, it’s easy to repair. A plugs failure will leave a much smaller and easier to repair wound in the board then any other attachment system that I know of. With a little bit of waterproof epoxy and a couple of pre sanded plugs you can fix all but the worst disaster on the beach and about ten minutes. The other thing that I like about two plugs is that you can see the shapers dots and know at a glance that your fins are sitting where the shaper intended them to be. I guess the last thing is that there was are some weight advantages FCS has over other attachment systems.
Tyler, no worries bro! We’re in this together. Something that jumped out at me in your post was that you mentioned a ten minute fix on the beach with some pre-sanded plugs and quickset epoxy. Great idea, but the plugs aren’t the easiest things to come by. I have difficulty getting them myself, and i’m one of the main 5 repair shops in so cal. Since your attention has been gathered…why not sell a plug set to people (without fins) so they could do said repairs when necessary. Maybe even include a couple tubes of the quickset? They would/should be fairly affordable no? Just a thought.
Howzit LokBox, Ten minutes is cutting it, especially if salt water got into the ding. I always flush the ding with fresh water after cleaning up the area to fix since resin and salt water don’t mix. I have had guys bring me boards to fix and they tell me it has been out of the water for a few days and the ding is dry. That’s when I tell them about sodium crystals and how they will melt and delam a repair if the area gets hot from the sun or sanding, also it’s unflushed dings that will always turn brown. Some times I have the person wet a finger, rub it over the exposed foam and taste it, it tastes like salt. I also tell them that by flushing the ding before bringing it to me that will speed up the repair time.Aloha,Kokua
Regarding fcs plug failure, a couple of things that have helped me 1) no pigment in the mix- this has helped the bond 2) after the plugs have set up and been sanded I make sure to put the jig or a fin in the plugs before I turn the screws. I’ve seen the bond loosen if I try to turn the screws without supporting the plug.
Howzit Patrick, Adding pigment is optional and doesn't weaken the mix that much unless you add to much. As for the screw trick, I'd say if just turning the screw loosens the plug then the install was to weak to start with. Now here's a trick, I suggest that you premix your batch the day before you plan to install so all those little air bubbles will disapate because they will definitly make for a weak install since there's no strength in air. Your ideas are good and shows you think before you leap. One really nice thing about their new plugs is you don't wipe them with acetone, in fact my rep told me that wiping the new plugs with acetone is a definite no no.Aloha,Kokua
So this thread started in Mar 2004 approx. 3 years ago,
so is
is FCS dead?
should they be dead?
why arent they dead?
FCS is bigger than the competitors combined, and also was 2 years ago, and probably will be two years from now.
As markets develop, it is VERY easy to dominate a market if you are a monopoly and your product offers a REAL benefit and you have capital to grow quickly. FCS ate the removable fin system market for lunch in the early 90s.
It is MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher to eat marketshare from a competitor who is already established UNLESS your product provides a REAL benefit.
The fact is that FCS has been used to win many world championships, and is very light, and is the easiest install in the business, so the competitors have a difficult time establishing that there is a REAL benefit that would justify switching. And every competitor does their designs with one goal in mind - providing SOME type of benefit over FCS.
Blakestah, that is about the most astute and accurate obsevation you could type.
I’ve come a full circle and am now going to go back to FCS.
Two reasons: (other they weight and easy install, as mentioned above)
Custom fins - easy to make those tabs, no cant in the fin either. simple. Crappy plastic fins are sooooo heavy.
One of the largest weight components of my compsands!
Overseas sales - On my travels i’ve sold boards in tropical surf destinations to pay for the next round of beers!
Had people turn me down, cos of obscure fin systems.
Even Red X, which I like, are not readily available most places in the world.
FCS you can find in back waters of Indo, sri lanka… plenty of snapped PU/PE boards around, all with FCS, just dig a plug out, do your repair, and your surfing again.
If Lokbox or Futures was owned by a bank with bottomless pockets, that doesn’t mind giving product away at an alarming rate, or paying people off to put boards with said product into tradeshow booths, FCS would be history by now. That being said they are losing market share by the day. People are waking up. Read Gerlachs comments in the latest TSJ. Lightest is argueable at best, and with around 13 steps to install, easiest to install is argueable as well. Was in Epoxy pro yesterday and noticed very few if any FCS boards in there. Just a matter of time, but i’m no hurry for the race to the bottom. I’ve set out to develop something better, and more reliable, and I think I’ve done just that. If your main criterias for using a fin system is availability or ease of repair that’s pretty sad. I’m concerned with performance. If it’s designed well repair isn’t much of an issue.
