after carefully rereading your
request for indulgence
I have concluded to
support your decisions
entirely,and without reservation
I can sincerly say that this could
easily be the greatest board
in the history of the known universe
and will indeed be the bridge
to the stars yet unseen and unknown.*
…ambrose…
*1.suurfing is the training ground
for inter stellar multi dimensional
travel throughout the unknown.
lets start shaping.
Haha,in space no-one can hear you scream…(ALIEN)
thanks for your time on this one…
didnt head in the way i thought…
haha, sometimes you just gotta roll the dice,an see where the rabbit hole leads…
can i wrap it up with the reason i asked the question.
because i thought we were missing out on an opprtunity…
to bring custom to a place with 3d design caperbility,a reservoir of information,
and an individual service
deadshaper is ‘cautiously sceptical about my motives’
so i’ll be clear
,or as in ‘a few good men’ crystal clear…
i’m with bill,there are no secret rockers,measure everything,keep notes,understand the difference…
and we really should advertize that…
your comment
I Have heard rumors that Wiki Leaks is going to realise a complete portfolio of every surfboard that has ever been made. As well as all of Dick Brewers secret documents from his years working as a CIA hitman! Damn That Julian Assange!
Aloha GDog
I don’t think that more easily accessible design data is a solution. In fact, the idea that it should even exist is likely a more telling example of what the real problem is.
Many seek an easier answer or formula that will help them make magic boards. Mostly to beat their competition and secure some form of security in the areas of economics and fame. Problem is, life doesn’t work like that. There are no formulas or guarantees.
There is a popular but flawed view of the world that is fostered by an entitlement culture deeply addicted to life as virtual entertainment.
At the risk of sounding like “an old guy”… In my era, the best surfboard makers were also the best surfers. The two were inseparable. This wasn’t by accident. It is how good design was discovered and established. Good boards were the result of several world class abilities and talents driven by deep passion and work ethic for the task at hand. Skills like… athletic ability, craftsmanship, artistic sense, analytical thinking and hard work, birthed good design and products. Fame and fortune wasn’t the goal, it was a reward bestowed on those who had the talents and put them to use in ways that exceeded their peers or competitors.
Today, it is about the quest for acceptance via being a cool guy who makes boards. It is about feeling happy. It is “Virtual Entertainment” It is about entertaining oneself with pursuits that have little chance of success because the necessary talents, hard work and commitment just aren’t there for everyone who is trying. Yet their strong sense of personal entitlement, demands that this success and happiness should be guaranteed to them, even if they don’t have the talent or work ethic to achieve that success and happiness on their own.
Automation only serves to fuel this sense of entitlement. The easier you make the task, the more attractive the activity will become to those who don’t otherwise have the levels of commitment necessary to confront the difficulties of doing the task. Let alone the true costs of becoming world class at it. If doing the task, has a strong “glory value” in it, then making the task easier will primarily attract more glory seekers, not necessarily more talented craftsmen, artists, athletes, etc. As the task becomes easier, the pool of players will increase but there will rarely be a resultant improvement in the products produced or the skills of those producing them. Mostly you will just get a large increase in competition and products designed through guessing and copying.
This excess of plagerized products must be supported and sustained by huge marketing plans, efforts and budgets. In a sport like surfing where the accessibility of good waves is naturally limited, the eventual outcome of all these marketing efforts and high production techniques … IS SUPER CROWDED SURF! In the end, we will find that we have simply “shot ourselves in the foot” and prevented ourselves from being able to enjoy the very activity we… so desired to do. For many who never really “got it” in the first place, their new found fame and fortune will replace this loss. But for others it is a loss of tragic proportions.
Having a pool of easily accessible data, so as to produce perfect surfboards without all the individual efforts it would normally take to aquire it personally, will not grow the pool of strong, talented, craftsmen. Nor will it increase the ability of the small builders to compete with the big builders. The failure (if there is such) of the small builder, is not the big builder. It is simply a lack of talent and commitment on their part. If they are given a particular design formula rather then figuring it out themselves, it only reduces their need for talent, hard work and commitment.
Maybe the failure (if there is such) of the small builder is a misunderstanding of business principles and their confusion with economics and fame. But that is a discussion for another time.
Wow! Bill , very well put…
I certainly don’t agree with all you’ve said here but it’s a very enjoyable read…!
First things first… I’m not a surfer as described on Wikepedia, but I know enough to see and recognize great and promising shaper / surfer talent from this " modern" era…
I don’t know all the names of the young quality shaper / surfers, as I don’t follow such things that closely , but Tomo, Proctor, Mayhem,etc, come to mind and I’m sure many other extremely young (in our eyes) shaper / surfers are coming out with exciting , ground breaking adaptations of things they’ve learned from their elders…
What I’m trying to say is: The new breed of shaper /surfer are the next generation of the “inseperable” board builder /surfer you wax on about in your post…They just have an unfair techno. advantage… Get over it…")
Yes they have crutches, hell they probably buy a new G3 ,G4 phone each year… Yes they use machines to do their hard menial work, but that’s what technology seems to be all about… Microwave ovens, washing machines, dishwashers …etc…
Frankly, I’m somewhat gealous, or should I say envious… I want a CNC milling machine to speed up my “slow ass” ideas… I’d love to have a $40K crutch sitting in a large shop…ha…") The modern shaper can “discover and establish” the difference between good and bad design way faster that the good old days…That bothers those who had to build loads of bad boards as well as really good ones until they got it figured… I bet a lot of you old school shapers wish you had some of those wasted Clark blanks back in your shop… …American Pickers would probably get $100+ a Clark blank…
Wouldn’t you like to have all the wasted trial and mostly error boards back… Not suggesting you had any at all Bill…")
I think G-dog suggests a rocker index file of those established boards that are proven so that all those (us) involved in building surfboards (or in my case kite surfboards.) have a greater chance of success…
Success breeds elation and happiness, which leads to exploration ,and most often more success. which leads to more elation… Our success does that in the form of $$$ for the glass and foam supplier etc… and makes for a happier world… Those with nothing to offer to such a “pool” will have nothing to offer and will be quickly weeded out…
Finally: We can not run and hide from the fact that the surf is crowded… Modern wider tailed, faster, better constructed and rockered boards have improved the “elation” factor… This is goooooood… No?
When I first started kite boarding there were only 2 other guys doing so at our local beach for the entire year… Now 10 kiters in one area is considered a small crowd… On average, on a good day, over an 8 hr. period , I’d say 40+ kiteboarders cycle through a given location… Now that I build kite surfboards to sell as well as ride myself, do I pine for those days of only 2 to 4 people on the water.? … I think not!! There’s no money in that…
Great response Bill. You nailed it. Perhaps a bit wordy, yet still a worthy read. Thank you for your life’s work, and in reality someone wouldn’t even be able to think about a “rocker catalogue” without your insights. Funny how easy some guys think it is.
[quote="$1"]
Great response Bill. You nailed it. Perhaps a bit wordy, yet still a worthy read. Thank you for your life's work, and in reality someone wouldn't even be able to think about a "rocker catalogue" without your insights. Funny how easy some guys think it is.
[/quote]
Thank you Bill. I surf when I can. I often think about how much better my boards would be if I was a better surfer and a better craftsman. Mostly wish I was a better surfer with more time to surf......I'll never make money building surfboards. My rocker numbers come from catalogues.
Go get some waves......Ray.....
Kite, i think you miss the point, because what bill said is true. I work in an ageing workforce, and the old guys had to learn things correctly, because they only had basic tools. That meant that they learnt the "why" of what they were doing, not just "how" to do it. They are first class tradesman. It is the same with just about every trade. Sure, most joiners these days can order a CNC cut kitchen, but what if you want something a little different, that requires real trade knowledge?? You go to an experienced tradesman, normally without the bling advertising in the paper. I like going to markets, and checking out all the old school tools carpernters/tradesmen used ages ago. Looking at them makes me realise how good they were. Next time you're looking at a piece of furniture, take a tape measure, and measure the diagonals, and see how out of square it is.
.
Kite, i think you miss the point, because what bill said is true. I work in an ageing workforce, and the old guys had to learn things correctly, because they only had basic tools. That meant that they learnt the "why" of what they were doing, not just "how" to do it. They are first class tradesman. It is the same with just about every trade. Sure, most joiners these days can order a CNC cut kitchen, but what if you want something a little different, that requires real trade knowledge?? You go to an experienced tradesman, normally without the bling advertising in the paper. I like going to markets, and checking out all the old school tools carpernters/tradesmen used ages ago. Looking at them makes me realise how good they were. Next time you're looking at a piece of furniture, take a tape measure, and measure the diagonals, and see how out of square it is.
Kite, i think you miss the point, because what bill said is true. I work in an ageing workforce, and the old guys had to learn things correctly, because they only had basic tools. That meant that they learnt the "why" of what they were doing, not just "how" to do it. They are first class tradesman. It is the same with just about every trade. Sure, most joiners these days can order a CNC cut kitchen, but what if you want something a little different, that requires real trade knowledge?? You go to an experienced tradesman, normally without the bling advertising in the paper. I like going to markets, and checking out all the old school tools carpernters/tradesmen used ages ago. Looking at them makes me realise how good they were. Next time you're looking at a piece of furniture, take a tape measure, and measure the diagonals, and see how out of square it is.
Trpl post.
Btw, “newer” shapers can definately become first class tradesman/craftsmen, but,there a lot of shoddy people too, who just wanna take shortcuts. Before the “machine”, these guys didn’t get too far. Now, anyone can put an order in and they have a shop fullof boards. A guy at work the other day was bragging that he knows someone who can copy any board, for half the price of the original. I kept a straight face and said no thanks. This is a very good committed surfer. I thought it odd
trpl post
there are a lot of good surfers.
there are a lot of good boards.
good is achieving mediocrity
and holding tight right there.
reproduction of a good board
is a long cherished goal for
a large segement of the
consuming elite.
The gross feeder is man
in the larval state.
there is more to learn
from a mistake
than from a success.
enough success
stifles growth.
Going on the attenuated
design model of the cnc machine
the narrow solution predictability
becomes validated by the
investment value of the machine itself
and not the '‘inspired product’'and that is where
the market model is today.Kids with 40k machines
make good boards,for good surfers,bitchin.
Go to Indo china pass Go collect 200K
the ryan burch 4 minute shape
is the eclipse that achieves
Fun quotient validation.
…ambrose…
crowded? Where the discount boards
congregate at Perfect spots
where discount surfers
congregate to compare
boards more similar
than diffrent.
…and they’re all made of
ticky -tacky and
they all look the same.
I see a problem with taking someones proven design specs, copying it then selling that without compensating the person who created those proven specs.
The digital age brought us machines that can create the perfect copy. What it didn’t do was protect the copyright owners. Both the music industry and movie industry have had their problems with digital copies. Now the surfboard industry is plagued with it.
With the same digital tools we use to interact here we can create our own digital copies, if we are smart enough to know what those tools are and how to use them. But then that’s what the creators had to start with anyway. The knowledge of what and how to do things, but they didn’t have all the short cuts we have now.
I never use rocker numbers when I hack out a board from a block of EPS, just start with an idea in my head and one of my precut templates which were all made from gut feelings and my eyes. If I use a traditional PU blank, I just make adjustments to the preset rocker based on gut feelings. A nice long straight edge keeps you on track.
I think that if you surf enough to want to make boards, you should have enough background data stored in your brain to have your own gut feelings about what will work and why. And if you don’t, there’s a ton of info available if you just look around.
If you intend to make boards to sell, it’s not cool to be asking for all this data from others and taking advantage of their years of experience without some compensation. But I’ve noticed that this is the way the younger generation is. You teach them how to do the work then they try to take your job. It’s one reason why things are falling apart. When I started out, you respected the elders who taught you and waited for your time to shine. It will come if you deserve it. Today there’s no respect or patience, and it’s OK to screw someone over to get ahead.
Surfing is the perfect example, the newer surfers are some of the worse.
[quote="$1"] I see a problem with taking someones proven design specs, copying it then selling that without compensating the person who created those proven specs. [/quote]
Thats a big problem everywhere - unethical people making money off other's work. When I was a commercial artist, the copyright law only protected your work up to 80% - in other words, if someone reproduced your work, altered 20% of it, then it was considered a new work. So some "smart" companies ripped off others' work, hired artists to modify it 20%, packaged it, and sold it as "clip art". You go to the print shop to get cards printed up, they have a catalog of logos to pick from. Unethical in my book, but perfectly legal.
A friend of mine invented a tool, and spent a lot of money to patent it. As soon as he introduced it, a major tool company made a copy, changed it slightly, filed for their own patent, and began marketing heavy. They're making the big bucks off his tool, and he doesn't have enough capital left to fight it in court - exactly what they were planning, I'm sure.
Another example - I know a roofer here in town who advertises "roof inspection and repair with a guarantee". He claims he will inspect your roof, do any needed repairs, and guarantee it for two years. I met him once, and he was crying about the heavy rain. I said You're a roof repair contractor, I thought you liked the rain. He told me that on his roof repairs, he just slops some Henry's black tar on the obvious leaks, then hopes for two dry years, "this is Bakersfield after all", he told me. Legal? Absolutely. Ethical? You decide. Yeah, he cries the blues when we get the occasional heavy rain, but he's making lots more money than I am.
You can make all the laws you want, but you can't legislate ethics.
There are good guys with cnc machines too, just trying to use the latest tools to do what they love - make surfboards.
huck,your not suggesting understanding rocker using numerical data against ride reports is unethical.?.
sharkcountry,i start from square too,but this isnt about me,its about a livelihood,and the effect of big business…
ambrose,like the way you look at the big picture, many thanks…
beerfan,newer shapers can become first class craftsmen YES,can we secure a future for the young guys.?
Ray,sorry if you think i gave you a hard time,but that really ain’t me…
ghettorat,reading bill and deadshaper,mnths ago,made me ask the question…
Kite,rocker index file,i feel safer already…
Sorry Gdog, but I’m not in it for the money. I know people with machines and have been encouraged to try using the computer to design, but that’s not what I do. I’m just making a few oddities that the real builders don’t have time to mess with. I plan to stop as soon as I get through the stash of materials I excitedly purchased a while ago. Then I’ll go back to the pros with their better tools, workspaces, and more knowledge about board design than I care to deal with.
In my world, the guys all have their favorite shapers based on years of working together. Every now and then someone new comes along with something worth checking out, but the go to guy is going to be the same. Maybe you’ll be one of those new guys with that special something we all want to try.