the reasons why sways does not have a rocker catalogue

Guys i don’t want want to deceive you,rocker was the single most devisive factor which would stop us becoming the sum of our parts,and competing effectively against the growing threat of mass producers,it was the factor most needing some common agreement,and a great starting point… hence the title…

 

but a 3d design centre, back by the most comprehensive knowledge on the planet offering a range of options by a host of local shapers and advertised alongside mass producers world wide, is the goal…

 

a level playing field

 

i like a fair fight…

a level playing field…?

 

a vote for a flat earth…?

I’M in.

hey wher’s thet box?

my agoraphobia merit bage is gettin dirty

I need a fresh one.

…ambrose…

drop in 

change the shape

of the earth.

previous post written

while drinking 1st 120z.

of orange pineapple

apple bannana aloe

blender drink.

does mescalito 

reside in the aloe vera ?

…ambrose…

when apraiseeing these comments

we must consider the fuel each 

contributor  is running on.

Wonderbread…

is way diffrent than foraged fungus or 

plastic  wrapped steak,or fish stix ,

or even pizza hut pizza.

we not only are what we eat

we are thinking on what we eat.

the instructions provided are for

the kids raised on revell hot rods.

some hot rods started with an old wrecked car.

 

 two most

famous facists were vegetarian

elsa scapparelli said so.

Haha,i’ve gotta meet you sometime ambrose…

 Lil’gdog, Yeah I liked that piece by Barnfield enough to repost because he’s the real deal, but imbeciles are like inbred muts one of the first things to go is there sensibility.  Credibility and respect are  earned; I hate to call out names, but sometimes Its necessary.  Nonetheless, there is no one magic rocker, but that’s another for another time.  

yeah gRat,liked it myself,not often you get slated by an icon.tho i feel his anger was directed at the undeserving…

this whole thing is based on the fact there is no magic rocker…so read on

.and i’m lookin forward to earning your cred…

Mescalito was last seen taking Panama Red out of town.

Sout' da border,

Down May-Hee-Co way.

Hey GDog…

How ya doing?

Hey     What the hell… I’ll be the first in your data base…

I’ll tell you this :    If you want to go fast and keep up to a kite ,relaxed entry with  moderate lower than average tail rocker works the best alround…

My 5’10" boards are 4 1/2" max,     by      1 5/8"  to   1 7/8"

My 5’ 6" boards  are 4" to 41/4"     by      1 1/2" to 1 3/4"

I have more exact inch by inch measurements documented,but … Who cares…

All boards are vacuum formed using  adjustable rocker tables…

 

GDog

Surfing has grown tremendously in the last decade or more.  A very large portion of those now surfing are beginners or fairly new to surfing.  I recall a recent survey that showed, if I remember right, beginners were nearly 50% of those surfing and were primarily what was fueling the growth.  

Most manufacturers who are exclusively Hand shaping and using in house glassing are smaller volume producers.  Consequentially, they have been a lot less effective at meeting this growing consumer demand for surfboards and SUPs, compared to the higher production operations that are using shaping machines and large outside glassing facilities.  Asian mass producers, often molding their products, have been even more successful in gaining a large share of these new customers.  Hand Shapers, as you have noted, “seem” to be missing out.

But if volume is not the sole measuring tool, then many of these smaller manufacturers are doing quite well, thank you.  Some have discovered that smaller volumes, delivered with unique personality and higher prices is also a viable business model.  Some might call this more “soulful” and are willing to pay a little bit more to have it.

“Levelness” of the playing field?  Seriously!  Do you really want to have that discussion.  99% of backyard surfboard builders, who are selling their boards, are likely operating illegally.  Should we even discuss whether or not the incomes generated are declared and appropriate taxes paid?  Many smaller mfgs, while operating in proper industrial zoned facilities, quite likely wouldn’t meet proper building or use codes, let alone health and safety requirements.  Additionally, very few abide by the laws pertaining to employees as most are paid as subcontractors rather then employees.  All these illegal activities create a distinctly UNlevel playing field that significantly reduces the costs of operations and therefore improves profitability or allows lower retail prices further tilting the playing field.  

On the other hand, most large operations have to meet these requirements as they are inpected regularily to insure that they do and the liability risks of operating illegally just isn’t worth it. 

Lastly and probably more important to your question and also to the problem you seem to think exists…

There is a maturing of the product in the surf industry.  There are very few real product differences in contemporary boards that can or do distinctly define them.  Most all, perform well, look nice and are constructed reasonably well.  With a lack of significant technical differences to espouse, sales are generated via shrewd marketing.  Larger producers do so by spending more money on advertising and promotional activities.  Smaller producers market mostly via bro deals, lower pricing due to their lower costs from illegal operations and can provide more personal attention to customers.

This same maturing of product, happened in the mid 60s when boards evolved into being all the same as they were primarily designed to nose ride, as that is what the contests and surf media machine was promoting.  So while most of the industry was heading in one sole direction, there was a powerful wind of change blowing, that soon erupted in what is now known as the “short board revolution.”  

Today, while there is more willingness in the media to expose and entertain us with different kinds of boards, the Pro Contest Scene, like it or not, is still the major force in defining what a “cool” surfboard is.  And while that product may be a bit thinner, narrower and have concave bottoms, it has been essentially the same for nearly 30 years.  This kind of product maturity or stagnation, becomes hugely attractive to mass producers, especially those who mold boards or need long lead times to manufacturer like Asian mfgs do.  

Hand shapers don’t face competition because they don’t have access to a “rocker data base on Swaylocks”.  They face competition because their product is boring old news and too easy to replicate in high volumes in China!

Like going out and buying a Fork to eat with…  Are there enough significant differences in Forks these days, to bother with extensive shopping effortrs or paying vast differences in prices.  Does it really matter what country in the world your fork is made in?  Don’t they all perform well, not rust out and last a lifetime at a cheap price?  What more could an average consumer of forks need?  That is a matured product.  Of course, if you are trying to impress yourself or someone else, then you may go out and buy forks from the most famous silverware manufacture that will ring your bells.  Did you learn about it in “Forker” magazine?  :-)  But what percentage of consumers have these “Fork” conserns from reading Forker Mag!  At some point it becomes clear that there just isn’t as much need for small speciality Fork makers anymore.  And unless the media and industry finds a way to create a need for these speciality Forks as improvement over the mass produced ones, there probably won’t be.  And even then, the consumer need will be driven 99% by marketing and not by real product diferentiation or functional features.

Forks are a matured product.  So is the contemporary surfboard.  Zillions of small (hand shaper) silversmiths likely went out of business in the last few hundred years as forks matured and the manufacturing techniques to make them improved to the point where they were able to be made, faster, cheaper and with plenty of function and quality for most consumers.

Do you see another design revolution on the horizon that might save the day?  Cause a rocker database on Swaylocks won’t.

 

[quote=“$1”]

 

GDog

Surfing has grown tremendously in the last decade or more.  A very large portion of those now surfing are beginners or fairly new to surfing.  I recall a recent survey that showed, if I remember right, beginners were nearly 50% of those surfing and were primarily what was fueling the growth.  

Most manufacturers who are exclusively Hand shaping and using in house glassing are smaller volume producers.  Consequentially, they have been a lot less effective at meeting this growing consumer demand for surfboards and SUPs, compared to the higher production operations that are using shaping machines and large outside glassing facilities.  Asian mass producers, often molding their products, have been even more successful in gaining a large share of these new customers.  Hand Shapers, as you have noted, “seem” to be missing out.

But if volume is not the sole measuring tool, then many of these smaller manufacturers are doing quite well, thank you.  Some have discovered that smaller volumes, delivered with unique personality and higher prices is also a viable business model.  Some might call this more “soulful” and are willing to pay a little bit more to have it.

“Levelness” of the playing field?  Seriously!  Do you really want to have that discussion.  99% of backyard surfboard builders, who are selling their boards, are likely operating illegally.  Should we even discuss whether or not the incomes generated are declared and appropriate taxes paid?  Many smaller mfgs, while operating in proper industrial zoned facilities, quite likely wouldn’t meet proper building or use codes, let alone health and safety requirements.  Additionally, very few abide by the laws pertaining to employees as most are paid as subcontractors rather then employees.  All these illegal activities create a distinctly UNlevel playing field that significantly reduces the costs of operations and therefore improves profitability or allows lower retail prices further tilting the playing field.  

On the other hand, most large operations have to meet these requirements as they are inpected regularily to insure that they do and the liability risks of operating illegally just isn’t worth it. 

Lastly and probably more important to your question and also to the problem you seem to think exists…

There is a maturing of the product in the surf industry.  There are very few real product differences in contemporary boards that can or do distinctly define them.  Most all, perform well, look nice and are constructed reasonably well.  With a lack of significant technical differences to espouse, sales are generated via shrewd marketing.  Larger producers do so by spending more money on advertising and promotional activities.  Smaller producers market mostly via bro deals, lower pricing due to their lower costs from illegal operations and can provide more personal attention to customers.

This same maturing of product, happened in the mid 60s when boards evolved into being all the same as they were primarily designed to nose ride, as that is what the contests and surf media machine was promoting.  So while most of the industry was heading in one sole direction, there was a powerful wind of change blowing, that soon erupted in what is now known as the “short board revolution.”  

Today, while there is more willingness in the media to expose and entertain us with different kinds of boards, the Pro Contest Scene, like it or not, is still the major force in defining what a “cool” surfboard is.  And while that product may be a bit thinner, narrower and have concave bottoms, it has been essentially the same for nearly 30 years.  This kind of product maturity or stagnation, becomes hugely attractive to mass producers, especially those who mold boards or need long lead times to manufacturer like Asian mfgs do.  

Hand shapers don’t face competition because they don’t have access to a “rocker data base on Swaylocks”.  They face competition because their product is boring old news and too easy to replicate in high volumes in China!

Like going out and buying a Fork to eat with…  Are there enough significant differences in Forks these days, to bother with extensive shopping effortrs or paying vast differences in prices.  Does it really matter what country in the world your fork is made in?  Don’t they all perform well, not rust out and last a lifetime at a cheap price?  What more could an average consumer of forks need?  That is a matured product.  Of course, if you are trying to impress yourself or someone else, then you may go out and buy forks from the most famous silverware manufacture that will ring your bells.  Did you learn about it in “Forker” magazine?  :-)  But what percentage of consumers have these “Fork” conserns from reading Forker Mag!  At some point it becomes clear that there just isn’t as much need for small speciality Fork makers anymore.  And unless the media and industry finds a way to create a need for these speciality Forks as improvement over the mass produced ones, there probably won’t be.  And even then, the consumer need will be driven 99% by marketing and not by real product diferentiation or functional features.

Forks are a matured product.  So is the contemporary surfboard.  Zillions of small (hand shaper) silversmiths likely went out of business in the last few hundred years as forks matured and the manufacturing techniques to make them improved to the point where they were able to be made, faster, cheaper and with plenty of function and quality for most consumers.

 

Do you see another design revolution on the horizon that might save the day?  Cause a rocker database on Swaylocks won’t.

 

[/quote

Stick a fork in it, because its done.  Bill your insights are the best.  On a side note; whatever happened to the Oneida corporation, an interesting study if you care to research its founding.

cheers kite,you already have the gift of peace from non ownership,feel’s good eh…

 

Now thats a deep,clear objective insight into our world as it stands!

 

can i thank you on behalf of all the folk here Bill,for giving us your time on this one,well worth the hike to get here…

 

This maturing,stagnating point,as originality grinds to a halt,should be a great opportunity for us too,to review designs from past to present,and map the characteristics we want to understand,rightfully and fairly,jumping on the learning curve and joining in a common aim …

 to never make another bad board…haha

 

we do have this information at our fingertips,never will so much have been thrown away for the wrong reasons…

 

 

Love “seein’” ya here Bill.  

Elegant, and right on as always.

[quote="$1"]

we do have this information at our fingertips,never will so much have been thrown away for the wrong reasons...

[/quote]

Hey GDog there doesn't seem to be much interest in comparing rocker notes here on swaylocks, but this thread has piqued my interest.  I personally feel rocker is one of the key ingredients of a good design.  I've sent you a PM, I'd love to compare rocker notes with you, never hurts to learn a little more!

Rocker, to make a sweet riding board…
Who’s surfing it? What kind of waves? Size? How’s the rider feeling?
Now add template adjustments, thickness flow and actual measurements, tail block shape, wide point location, entry shape and design, and that’s about HALF the variables.
Weight, weight balance, fin location and sizing (sss), shape, configuration. OK, now closer to 3/4 of the variables considered…
If it’s as simple as you think, it’d be called … kiteboarding…

[quote="$1"] Rocker, to make a sweet riding board..... Who's surfing it? What kind of waves? Size? How's the rider feeling? Now add template adjustments, thickness flow and actual measurements, tail block shape, wide point location, entry shape and design, and that's about HALF the variables. Weight, weight balance, fin location and sizing (sss), shape, configuration. OK, now closer to 3/4 of the variables considered.......... If it's as simple as you think, it'd be called ..... kiteboarding.... [/quote]

Hahaha!  Ooohh my head is spinning.  Yep, these boards are complex things.  But if yer gonna build 'em right, I honestly believe you gotta understand rocker and its role in the package, and you have to look at how its incorporated into a successful design.  Search the archives for rocker stick, rocker table, rocker gauge, etc.  Good shapers take a hard look and a hard think about rocker - I don't think you can afford to ignore it just because its not simple.

Rocker numbers - everything else withstanding - have to be at least to the 6", and I like to the 3" w/in 18" of the ends. Catalog type stuff with one number, names of curve types, etc…  Not quite the same…

Right on Taylor, now you're talking my language!  How much rocker isn't the same thing as what rocker - I think thats why tblank said you need a rocker catalog to order a blank (or a picture / diagram of the rocker on the catalog page).  You might not be using the identical rocker, since these things tend to get tweaked like everything else, but you have to know the rocker you plan on will fit in the blank you're ordering.

Surfding has mentioned that he likes to pay close attention to the deck rocker too, since he minimizes foam removal on top of the blank, and shapes from the bottom, since the blank skin is tougher near the surface, and he wants that toughness at the deck.

 

@ Lee D…You’ve got that right…ha,ha…

 

 

 

 

 

I can only dream of being as good as the riders in the video’s above… But this sport is anything other than “simple”

 

I’ve got more “simple” kite rocker dimensions for anyone interested…ha.ha…

 

Most surfers have a quiver of boards due to all the variables you mention above…  So do kite surfers… Different boards with different outlines , rockers, widths etc. etc.

 

LeeD…If I’m to be the   Official  Sway’s  Kite Surf  whipping boy for all you snobby assed  purist surfboard builders to laugh at… then so be it… Thank God I don’t build Sup’s as well…lol…  What a dip shit…

 

 

Wow!

That third one is what nightmares are made of - Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore!

I liked this one too...

[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyzzx853XKA]

Yeah here’s one more “simple” Kite board trick…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erh0rsCMEoM&feature=player_embedded

 

Here’s a good  Fiji  one…

http://vimeo.com/29500587

The crane jump is done with a twin -tip board and huge “balls”…

The Fiji footage is true kite-surfboards…