the reasons why sways does not have a rocker catalogue

[Huck]

Just read through the whole thread, start to finish.  Its a good thread because it has some passionate and informed imput from a lot of people, and a lot of good food for thought, so I thank GDog for starting it.  Its also got some superfluous stuff LOL.

Everysurfer's response made the most sense to me, out of all the responses, because he talks about how to arrive at a rocker (using three radii for nose / middle / tail), and he talks about how to tweak a rocker, and what results one might expect from said tweaks.

I never did actually get an explanation of what a "swaylocks rocker catalog" would be, if such a thing were to exist.  Would it be a pdf file?  Would it be a thread with pics and ride descriptions?  Are there really any swaylocks catalogs in existence?

Like everysurfer, I design my own boards, rocker included, and while they are clearly based on shapes I've seen, they are never exact copies.  The whole concept of copying boards is a large gray area and kind of an ethical minefield, although apparently not a legal one.  Meaning there are plenty of ethical objections to be found, but I haven't encountered anyone who suffered legal ramifications from copying a board.  It seems a whole industry has sprouted based on copied designs.

GDog has stated there is no legal "ownership" of shapes, but there is still a strong sentiment against using someone else's shape, and marketing it as your own - although there is widespread acknowledgement that this goes on all the time in the surf industry.  But since a lot of swaylocks builders just build for themselves, I suspect that there would be no marketing involved for most of us here.  Which leads me to the observation that most of the objections stated by industry people are industry objections, not really applicable to the home-builder.

However, as has been stated, there are extensive rocker catalogs available on the internet, and also rocker-tweaking tools available on the internet, so the need for a new "swaylocks rocker catalog" still seems obscure to me.  It does seem if such a thing existed, it would be a great communcation tool when trying to describe a particular rocker, so maybe that's the rationale?

Malaroo states he uses a portion of an ellipse for his rockers.  That seems logical.  Just playing around on Microsoft Paint (it is set up to draw ellipses), I derived the following two rockers from the same ellipse.  I just used different portions of the ellipse to get one with more curve in the tail (the first one), and one with a flatter tail (the bottom one).

I could do that all day, and come up with numerous rocker variations.  So a catalog seems to me kinda like the old trigonometry tables - redundant once trig caculators came out. 

[rooster]

@$1

Let me start with some ideas.  For the pureists out there, this is my own work, which I freely share.  I didn’t copy anybody, just made the same or similar boards (mostly rounded pin short boards) repeatedly, with different rockers and bottom contours.

The first idea is that rocker is a series of curves.  Entry, middle, and tail.  Every curve is a segment of a circle with a defined radius. The different radiuses can be placed in the three different sections of the board.

 

Nose and tail measurements don’t tell the story.  example of two typical 5" nose, 2 1/2" tail.

A entry rocker radius of 7' - Middle rocker radius of 40' - tail rocker radius of 25'

vs.

A entry rocker radius of 7' - Middle rocker radius of 25' - tail rocker radius of 40'

If the greater radius measurement is in the tail, and more curve is in the middle, the board will go faster, and stiffer than the exact nose and tail measurements with but flatter in the middle, and more curved in the tail,

Look at the US Blanks 68 A.  The entry rocker radius is 5’-2". The middle rocker radius is 27’-10".  The tail radius is 38’-7"  This blank will be  stiff in small waves, compared to a different blank, where you reverse the middle and tail radius numbers.

So for what it’s worth, here is what I found.  If you want to turn easy, small waves, but not a lot of drive, 35’ radius middle radius, with a 6’ radius tail flip, and 2 3/4" rise tail measurement   Will work really good, makes me surf 20 years younger, but only if I stay in the pocket.  In the flats, and you are dead.  Same board with the US Blanks 68A natural rocker will go down the line twice as fast, but be half as quick to do a full cutback.

My winter 7’-8" semi gun flies down the line, is stable, but will still cutback has a middle and tail radius of 28’. 2 3/4" tail rise. But if you go back to the US Blanks I mentioned earlier, that natural rocker was 38’-7" radius.  WHy is the longer board 28’ while the shorter board is 38’.  Because with the semi gun so mush longer, it wouldn’t turn at all with  the larger radius.

Why do flat fish work? because they are so short!  If you want a longer board to turn, increase the curve and where you put it matters.

So to end this post… more curve in the tail, flatter in the middle will turn easier, but go slower than more curve in the middle, and flatter in the tail, with the same tail rise measurement.

 

Got a problem here.  Rocker numbers in feet?  ie.  natural rocker at 38’-7" equals 38 feet- 7 inches?  

Every, I know you are a carpenter.  Can we be more precise with the terminology?  What are we talking about here?

[everysurfer]

Rooster,

It’s the radius of the arc that creates the rocker.

I did a quick explanation in a build thread I did a while back  http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/6-5-stringerless-divinylecell-deck?page=4

I don’t like just points every foot.  Doesn’t really tell what the rocker is doing.  For my stuff, I use rocker sticks.  I draw a full sized arc on a 2 x 8 and cut it out.  Use a 50’ tape measure and a nail in the ground.  Hook the tape on the nail, put your pencil on the measurement, and drag the pencil against the wood, keeping the tape measure tight.  There is your rocker stick.

 

 

[everysurfer]

Here is  how to do it.

Go find some open room.  Put a nail in the ground and hook your tape
measure to the nail.  Walk off a distance, set down your 2 x 8.  With
your tape hooked on the nail, and the pencil against the tape measure,
draw an arc on the masonite.

From another build thread…

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/stringerless-build-thread

[Huck]

With all the concern about board makers stealing other’s shapes, does anyone besides me find it odd that the shape-off competitions at sacred craft are judged on how well the shapers are able to copy someone else’s board LOL? Just a thought from my perverse brain…

[everysurfer]

Hi Huck,

a pointed question.

I think it goes to the intent or the “Soul” of the endevour, and whether it is to pay homage to the past legend.

To copy anothers shape, giving full creative credit, and only demonstrating your own skill with the tools is ok.  Like a violinist in a orchestra, giving credit to the composer and conductor.

To take credit for the composition is plagerism.  When a shaper says they have a great idea, and seek credit for it, when they just copied it, is paint by numbers.

 

[BgSurfer]

@$1

Malaroo states he uses a portion of an ellipse for his rockers.  That seems logical.  Just playing around on Microsoft Paint (it is set up to draw ellipses), I derived the following two rockers from the same ellipse.  I just used different portions of the ellipse to get one with more curve in the tail (the first one), and one with a flatter tail (the bottom one).

I could do that all day, and come up with numerous rocker variations.  So a catalog seems to me kinda like the old trigonometry tables - redundant once trig caculators came out. 

Not only can the elipse be used for rockers, it can be used to generate an infinite number of board-shape templates – add points, square tails, etc; center the elipse or shift it forward and backward.  Many possibilities and no intellectual theft.

[Huck]

Hey Mark - yeah, I knew that.  Just noting the irony of it.

[GDog]

Thanks folks,all these points lead to a better understanding…

 

Small increments of change,whoever is making them,does not result in interlectual property…in this,or any other sphere…

 

progress is normally made in these small increments

taking what has already being discovered and in the public domain,understanding it,and taking it further would seem normal,and human…

i did want to get back to some of Bills other concerns but was waiting for gettorat,whose having a go at ‘nurturing’ a newbie on another thread,without them ‘thinking he’s an a$$hole’…getto,maybe your words arn’t as bad as you think…

ambrose,as his friend,i’d expect your eloquent comment,and would deserve it…

[ambrose]

rearranging thoughts on screen

for clarity:

is paint by numbers.  intellectual theft.

 To copy anothers shape demonstrating

your own skill with the tools is ok. 

To take credit for the composition is plagerism. 

 “Soul” ?  A pointed question.

 demonstrating your own skill 

  seek credit for it, 

Many possibilities and no intellectual theft.

To disrespect anothers dance because it isn't your own is beneath you.  Too tribal, too ghetto, too Zenophobic

http://MarkmillerConstruction.com/

Isn't that the Aloha spirit? Welcoming all in their own way?

greenough

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igN3FqwC29E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL4QX-bOZAQ

shaping while riding

...ambrose...

paying homage where homage is due

to Join A guild the journyman must present a masterpiece

to be critiqued by members of the guild to judge the piece.

[GDog]

thanks ambrose,watched him in action too…

Greenough pioneering shape shifting,a concept  modern boogie boarding appears based on,

and does he mind…?

 

is anyone else working on a stand up version?

where rocker can be altered slighty thro the back 1/3 of the board, thro foot position and pressure,

giving the ability to load a springboard type kick on release…

could it be done with materials we use…

or are better materials out there…?

[stoneburner]

@$1

to be critiqued by members of the guild to judge the piece.

It has been a common history of Guilds or a body of “peers” to use subjective criticism to preserve their power and prevent or block change and/or new ideas and technological advancement.

Revolutionary change typically topples the previous establishment.

[GDog]

Haha,spoken like a true ‘tree hugger’ stoneburner

but i wouldnt figure on a period of anarchy just yet

more likely a none event,just a general realization we have past the point anything truly original is likely to be found,and that the old and abused principles and ethic of rocker ownership,should make way for a different struggle in the following era…

my previous example proves how putting something in the public domain,before any application or consent,precludes any further ownership claims,it becomes common property,and one for the future

should we need it…

 

 

 

[ambrose]

 

 

Looking For Clark Rocker Catalog ?

 

 

 

an old thread

http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1026153

LonelyTyrant 

Joined: Jan 6 2007

 

The copy I have is 134 pages long, printed on extra wide old-school greenbar paper. Each page has over 50 seperate rocker descriptions. The listing is sorted by mold. 

 

 

…ambrose…

here is some research for ya G

there will be a test

there are some that had this  

committed to memory.

and all the R.B. secret rockers

are not listed as well as other

proprietary rocker information.

some rockers lasted only a season

and some just a couple weeks

rockers have proven to be quite fickle…

perhaps as fickle as candle flames

collecting moths with singed wing tips.

 

[stoneburner]

@$1

Haha,spoken like a true ‘tree hugger’ stoneburner

just a general realization we have past the point anything truly original is likely to be found

While I bemoan the loss of substantial portions of the planetary canopy and sensitive ecosystems for concrete and profit and rue the record loss of species (flora & fauna), my comments address the inner circles of territorial conformity and protectionism.  New technical skills have been rejected by artisans. Both the scientific community and religion have thwarted advancement over the centuries to protect their own power and authority.  New theories, discoveries and technology have almost always flown in the face of the establishment, met with great resistance and overturned the authority and stature of the previously established norm.  

Their are infinite combinations of variables left to explore.  To believe all of significance has already been discovered is the arrogance that fosters stagnation.

However, most advancements have been built on the discoveries and knowledge of those who have gone before.

[everysurfer]

Here is a question for Ghetto Rat, Alan Gibbons or anyone else who has shaped for Channel Islands,

I have a MBM and also a K Step -Up.  On both boards rocker  from mid point to tail, the curve isn’t continuous,  There is a flatter area between midpoint and the fins.  After the fins, the curve increases again. 

Can’t tell whether the sander flattened this area by mistake when blocking, or whether Al wanted it there.

[stoneburner]

The greater the flat area under the center of gravity (board + rider), the greater the speed.

[everysurfer]

But was the flat spot intentional?  Very slight.

[stoneburner]

@$1

But was the flat spot intentional?

On this, I will defer to the Rat.

[kendall]

@$1

 

Like going out and buying a Fork to eat with…  Are there enough significant differences in Forks these days, to bother with extensive shopping effortrs or paying vast differences in prices.  Does it really matter what country in the world your fork is made in?  Don’t they all perform well, not rust out and last a lifetime at a cheap price?  What more could an average consumer of forks need?  That is a matured product.  Of course, if you are trying to impress yourself or someone else, then you may go out and buy forks from the most famous silverware manufacture that will ring your bells.  Did you learn about it in “Forker” magazine?  :-)  But what percentage of consumers have these “Fork” conserns from reading Forker Mag!  At some point it becomes clear that there just isn’t as much need for small speciality Fork makers anymore.  And unless the media and industry finds a way to create a need for these speciality Forks as improvement over the mass produced ones, there probably won’t be.  And even then, the consumer need will be driven 99% by marketing and not by real product diferentiation or functional features.

Forks are a matured product.  So is the contemporary surfboard.  Zillions of small (hand shaper) silversmiths likely went out of business in the last few hundred years as forks matured and the manufacturing techniques to make them improved to the point where they were able to be made, faster, cheaper and with plenty of function and quality for most consumers.

 

 

That’s forking awesome