the fastest board is flat.
the slowest board is over rockered.
the world as we know it is simultaneously getting
better and worse. Only the new kids will truely adapt to these changes.
in the grandest of concepts everything is intentional,and a mistake.
…ambrose…
have you studied the rocker catalogue?
that’s the “secret” merrick 3-stage rocker and it is very much on purpose.
I don't know if it still the case but 25-30 yrs. ago big wave Hawaiian boards had this "segmented" rocker. They didn't have continuous curves. They were completely different from what was surfed on the mainland.
"Secret" Indeed.
Another one of the threads that cites blank catalogs as source of rocker secrets...
Except for a very few longboard blanks, there are no ''finished board'' rockers in a PU blank catalog. Most blanks, and especially the newer ones designed with CNC in mind, are designed to have some rocker shaped into the bottom. Also, most blanks are designed slightly on the flat side so that they don't distort when custom rockers are glued into them. Adding rocker doesn't distort much, but flattening a bent one will distort every time (deck will get lumpy).
Ambrose,is there something downloadable there
stoneburner,wouldnt the arrogance be expecting to get there without using available knowledge
kendall,i agree with bills assessment within this analogy,but not with your comment,please explain…
Mike,thanks for keeping me on track…
tommy got any more u want to add on merricks ‘less secret’ three stage rocker
tblank,a few measurements wouldnt tell that story,anyone any pictures…
everysurfer,can i ask for a little tolerance here,u know i have more pressing questions for getto
kendall,i need to say this,Bill has almost written the guide book on here,in the hope people like yourself will become better shapers,you’ve written two words,and in my opinion, got them totally wrong
you can see i dont want other peoples words thrown at me on this thread,with spurious comment,just clear and concise arguement,either way…
Bill predicts our decline,accurately i believe,based on the current model
clear enough reason to look at any alternatives…
Sorry if my two words to Bill’s quotes seem totally wrong to you. It was more directed at the brilliance of Bill’s replies (and knowledge in general) than towards you. I haven’t been active in these forums for a while and I just kinda blurted something out when Bill’s reply struck a nerve (good one).
I’ve been surfing 48 years (I rip:)), have owned hundreds of boards from a bunch of shapers, have been involved in the surf industry, “surfing technology”, and manufacturing “the most advanced surfboards in the world” (marketing hype). I’m friends with, and have worked with many of the world’s best shapers. While there are guys out there like Wil Jobson that can tell you every measurement of every board he makes - not from charts, but just because he can’t help but know those things, most great shapers I know intuatively build great boards. They’re not thinking about rocker dimensions. They’re simply building in the rocker that “feels right” to them.
What makes a surfboard “magic” is totally subjective. What works for you won’t necissarily work for me. I personally like way more tail rocker, less nose rocker, and smaller fins than most other surfers are comfortable with. Also, how a board works is much more than just it’s rocker. It’s a combination of rocker, template, rail shape, bottome contours, volume (and where it is), etc.
My comment on Bill’s qoute was directed towards the thought of commodotizing and standardizing surfboards. With 50% of surfers being beginners, there’s a market for “standard” boards. I’m personally torn about how I feel about this. Surfing is my favorite thing. While I’m not into how crowded my favorite spots have become, I don’t feel that it’s my right to deny others the chance of enjoying the same things I do. The surf “industry” allows surfers to make livings from sharing their passion. At the same time, the business of surfing is what’s killing it’s “soul”. Shapers created the boards that allowed the industry to exist. Now they’re at the bottom of the food chain.
Most surfers (me included) want boards for next to nothing. Mass-produced factory made boards make that possible. There are some significant costs associated with the influx of cheap boards. Individual shapers can’t compete on price and lose the ability to survive in a business they created. Surfboards become standardized like tennis rackets and forks. Surfing becomes a “sport” and not a culture.
The whole idea of a “rocker catalog” feeds into what in my opinion is killing the individualism that’s great in surfing and surfboard design. While I endorse shapers sharing information with each other on what has worked and what hasn’t for them, the catalog implies there is a right and wrong. It also implies that anyone (or any factory) can use this information to make boards as good or better than those of the true masters (Bill among them). Once surfers believe the best boards come from factories, individual shapers lose the ability to survive in an industry they created. That’s not a world I’m looking forward to. Surfing for me is about the love of the ocean and connecting to it on a very personal level. The boards that have worked best for me are ones that were made by shapers who were also great surfers. They weren’t looking at rocker charts while shaping my boards. They were looking at the lines they were making while considering my needs, ability, and style, and making the best possible craft for it’s intended purpose.
While I’m not denying there is “science” associated with surfboard design, I think distilling it into sets of imperical numbers ultimately dilutes the essence of what makes surfing so great. I prefer talking with my shaper about what I want in my next board, waiting for it to get made, bringing beer to smooth the process, and the anticipation of the first surf. Waxing up a new board that was made just for me (or by me) for the first time is way more gratifying than bringing a fork to the beach.
Having surfed with Kendall before he rips. He’s on good terms with one of the most esteemed shapers ever. I call it a blessing to have spent time in the room with him through the years, and have classic memories both good and bad. And this guy whom everyone revers I never recall using anything else other than his eye to adjust rockers to what he thought would be best. I keep numbers, but I am not married to them, and in the end its all about flow. Gdog reminds me of a guy who takes wants to take credit for mastering a painting by numbers, and never dare to go outside the lines, and that’s too bad, and for me that describes a mad man living in cage.
blushing 
Note the significant selling point.
[img_assist|nid=1065954|title=The same quality but cheaper!|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=100|height=63][img_assist|nid=1065954|title=The same quality but cheaper!|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=640|height=404]
yeah,same thing stoneburner,sorry,i will make mistakes
No worries kendall,i’m sure you would see how your comment on Bill’s bleak evaluation of our future prospects,would seem odd to many on here…
but thanks to the misunderstanding,a most worthy piece of rounded, honest opinion, covering many of the questions,which i will get to, at the heart of the problem,
and crucial to holding our rightful place in the market…
i hope i can change your mind on this,accessing this information,and the mass producers will all have this caperbility,will not turn a group of the most independently minded men on the planet,into sheep,
far from it,
and i think that anyone looking at us that way, has sorely misjudged us…
gettorat,nice of you to drop in,have you come to stick another fork in,or like kendall ,who has taken the time to explain himself,to good effect,have you come to offer an insightful look at the industries view of ownership and the other complex issues surrounding this period of transition…
kendall,u come across as a good bloke,please enjoy posting in this debate…
when you realize by choosing a name defining one self
the stone is cast on the water.
Removed observers clarity,
seeing a dog chasing it’s tail
A voice rings out like an abbey bell
"Hey dog you are chasing your tail ! "
and the dog in the heat of effort
replies…" PRETTY SOON WE ARE GONNA
CATCH THAT TAIL"
in the imortal words of tonto
‘‘what do you mean we.’’
…ambrose…
shape the blank
into a new board
ride the rocker
and the deck
and the rails
like no other…
his real name was
Jay Silverheels.
hi kendall
aint this dog fun to watch?
thanks ambrose,i’m hoping the people prefer to be swayed by logc…
Hey Ambrose - it’s been too long. Need another one of your “surf for world peace” tees. My fav.
It is fun to watch. Perception is influenced by perspective. How do you describe the color blue to a blind person?
I remember back in '68 or so, a couple guys came back from a winter on Kaui, bringing back some Hanapeppe surfboards.
They walked into Wises, with the boards, and proclaimed they had the new "magic marker". By then, a few of the progressive Kelly's crew also rode those 7'7" x 16" wonder needles. One of them actually rode pretty well.
We poured over those boards (me about into #32, so still a novice) and made our usual caustic remarks how one would ride like this, the other like that, and how "imperfect" the shapes really were.
One of the guys, a former LincolnHigh football QB, offered to shape a few for Bob, right there on the spot! Incredibly, after about 3 hours, his shape came out almost better than the Kaui shapes, certainly more even, but had reverse rocker for a longer length from the tail up. We offered he messed up (well, Bob, not me). He said the increased negative rocker actually would help his board catch waves earlier, get more drive out of bottom turns, and generally work better!
Well, you know the results. He could have thickenned the tail, widened the tail, moved the thick point or the wide point around, harden the rails more than the "standard", or even weighted the board with different glassing schedules, and still make the board the same lemon it was.
Stock, the 7'7" x 16 Hanapepe worked really well for OceanBeachSF. Lengthened tail rocker, not. Or, change any of the above, and even with perfect copied rocker, another lemon would result.
Ambrose probably knows all the players involved. I used to give him a ride to Pedro in my white MercuryComet, and sometimes, back.
kendall,so soon,
i thought i was offering the chance for you to hear different perspectives…
or is yours the only valid perception…
I don’t see Bill’s evaluation as bleak. It’s just reality. The only real difference with his analogy when it comes to making surfboards is - there aren’t as many people who need boards as those who need forks. Making gobs of money in the surf industry is really (really) hard. Surfers tend to want boards for next to nothing (as I said before, I’m included). There are some large-scale manufacturers that are making money. Channel Islands makes tons of boards, that people love (sometimes simply because the logo). They are still designed by, and primarily built by surfers. Anacapa is CI’s brand that was introduced so compete with the influx of Asian made boards. While not built by surfers, the shapes are still Al Merrick designs. They decided to make their own “won’t dent your pocketbook” products. Hey… if someone is going to knock you off anyway, you might as well do it yourself.
Surftech and Boardworks make mass-produced boards, also designed by established shapers. Buying one of these will get you something that should work, without a custom price… or feel.
Asian factories that jumped on the surf bandwagon have really hurt many shaper’s abilities to make money selling the objects the entire surf industry was built on. They’re focused on a pot of gold that’s not really there. I don’t have a problem with people trying to make a buck. I don’t have a problem with Asians (I’m one). I’ve just seen a lot of people getting into the surf business that are doing it only because they see dollar signs, not because they’re passionate about it. The dollar signs are an illusion. Surfers seem rich becuase we live enviable lifestyles. In reality, most of us are cheap, and there aren’t so many of us (except maybe at first point Malibu).
While cheap boards have definately made it harder for a lot of shapers to make livings (some have given up trying) Guys like Bill are icons that will always have a following, and shouldn’t have problems finding buyers for their products. Every time Bill posts photos of another build I feel the desire to place an order. Even though I’m a cheapskate, I’d rather pay more for something as personal as my magic board than save a few bucks by buying a generic factory made pop out. I also like supporting those who have devoted their lives to honing their craft.
I’m not ragging on you. It doesn’t really matter what my opinion is. Put together your rocker guide. Use it to make boards. Maybe they’ll surf great.
I’m just saying that for me personally, I wan’t my board built by someone who intrinsically knows what works, and what works FOR ME. Surfing is totally subjective. Surfboard design is totally subjective. It’s not simply numbers. There is NO SUCH THING as a perfect surfboard or perfect sets of numbers. You might think my favorite board sucks, and visa versa. That’s fine by me. Even if there was a perfect design, I don’t want to buy my surfboard like many people buy tennis rackets. The tradition and history of shaping boards is important to me. I support those who have given their sweat and blood making objects of my desire. I’m not invested in the sucess of those who simply want an easy way to exploit what amounts to my religion.
I’ve heard different perspectives. I’ve been around a while. Mine isn’t the only “valid perception”… but it’s the one that’s right for me
I’m not making any judgement calls on you, or your reasons for wanting a rocker guide. I don’t even know your intentions. It doesn’t really matter. If you need one, I hope you find it. For me personally, the best shapers don’t need no stinkin guide. For hobbiests, like most on Swaylocks, there are plenty of experts willing to help with friendly advice. If you asked Bill for rocker numbers for a particular build you’re working on in your garage shop, I bet he’d be happy to supply you with some. If you’re asking because you want to find a pot of gold at the expence of his years of sweat, blood, and experience… you’re gonna have some resistance.
“By then, a few of the progressive Kelly’s crew also rode those 7’7” x
16" wonder needles. One of them actually rode pretty well."
Kevin Saltenrich, the Daly City Wunderkind, rode the flaming piss out of his Brewer 16" needle rocket.