"the shoji" surfboard

General Discussion
41

My "polyspan" tissue arrived folded, in a package, rather than a roll, which was a bit disappointing.  This stuff is a polyester non woven fabric designed for dress lining.  It shrinks with heat, and is not affected by water, moisture, or humidity.

Modelers apply it with dope, but nitrate dope I found to be expensive, and hard to get.  So I just used the polyurethane floor finish I already had, to apply it.  The only drawback is that where the tissue has small bubbles or wrinkles that show white against the wood, you can't use thinner to flatten it out, it just is what it is.  I originally thought it would show clear over the wood, or a milky white, but figured either way, it would be uniform.  But instead, it looks kinda "mottled".

Not sure what I think about that part, if I like it or not.  It actually adds some character, like an old testament parchment, or an egyptian mummy, or something.  It does look kinda cool, just haven't decided if I want that on my board or not!  The open areas look fine, just pretty much as intended.

Working with this stuff is pretty much unlike anything else I've ever done.  Years ago as a kid I used to cover models with tissue, but this stuff is different.  Its like a cross between tissue and plastic shrink wrap, just has weird qualities.  Hard as heck to get it to go on wrinkle free, but the good news is the wrinkles, at least in the open areas, can be mostly worked out with heat. 

The combined weight from painting and covering was 1 lb., so I'm at 7 lbs. ready for glass.  My wife says I need to wear a kimono while surfing this board LOL.

Next step: the artwork!

42

wow - awesome!

43

Holy crap Huck, that thing is looking amazing. Loving the build thread and am in awe of your skills. Keep it coming.

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[quote="$1"]

Huck I think youve completely lost it

My hat's off to you my friend

show us (me) more

[/quote]

Hey ya Ken, plenty more over here on this thread.  I know you'd see it eventually, but figured I'd give it a bump anyways.  This is far and away the craziest board I've ever made, but having fun with it. 

45

you can get dope paint at the hobby shop

46

Hey Ken its not so easy anymore - I called all the hobby shops in the Burbank / Glendale / N. Hollywood area, and none of them carry nitrate dope.  Butyrate, yes, but not nitrate.  You can get it online, but its like $25 for a quart.  If work picks up I'll get some for my next project (yes, I'm planning on doing another one of these, if this one isn't a massive fail).

Anyways, on to the artwork.  Going Japanese flavor in keeping with the "shoji" theme, which was the original plan.  But I didn't want to paint, because the translucent look is so cool, I didn't want anything as solid as paint.  I really like the look of those colorful Japanese kites, and wanted something like that. 

And since the Japanese do so much great creative stuff with paper, I decided to try tissue paper for my artwork.

I decided on a koi fish, which is a typical theme in Japanese art, and also plan to incorporate some kanji symbols and some flowers too.  I sketched up a big koi fish, to use as a pattern for cutting my tissue. 

Again, I'm way out on a limb here, just trying stuff because.  So I ordered some colorfast tissue (meaning doesn't run, I don't think its colorfast when exposed to a lot of UV, oh well) from a school supply place for a few bucks.  I noticed when I got home this evening that it arrived today, so I cut a couple pieces and pasted 'em on with my polyester floor finish (its running dangerously low, sure hope I don't have to buy another can!).

Working with the tissue is a trip.  I don't think I've done anything creative with tissue paper since little kid days. 

Anyway, here's some shots showing what I have so far, it'll darken up as I add the layers of tissue over what you see here.

 

47

berry nice fish ,,, mr eddie's fadder

look like a door to the geisha girls dojo

do not surf that thing ,,, get it out on ebay and let it fetch you some dough

48

If you play your cards right Huck, you could be getting sushi for life. The tissue paper is genius. Very nice concept.

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Genius.  I can’t wait to see the final results.

50

Great stuff Huck.  Lovin’ the koi art.

Have you ever tried using the paper tissue, like balsa airplane models, over a frame with glass (?) – made Guillow models when I was a kid too. I’ve been toying with the idea for a couple of years now.  Figure the tightened paper tissue needs some type of aerosol sealant/re-enforcement to keep it from sagging when laminated.  Plan to test it with a narrow hollow chamber in a street deck.

Did you paint your floor sealant over the polyspan only, to bond it with the frame?  Or did you coat the frame also before adding polyspan.  Will you seal the polyspan before glassing?

Figured I would use epoxy on the frame, roll and press paper tissue over, and maybe blot tissue over wet frame resin to complete frame-bond saturation – time is the issue.  Cure resin.  Tighten tissue with water. Aerosol seal once, maybe twice. Then laminate.

 

EDIT:  Almost forgot.  Have you considered using something like the 1.45-2.1 oz industrial fabrics (volan) FG they have at Fiberglass Supply as a base laminate over your polyspan before adding a layer of heavier FG (4 or 6 S glass)?

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First of all, thanks guys for the moral support, a little of that goes a long way!

[quote="$1"]
Have you ever tried using the paper tissue, like balsa airplane models, over a frame with glass (?) -- made Guillow models when I was a kid too. I've been toying with the idea for a couple of years now.  Figure the tightened paper tissue needs some type of aerosol sealant/re-enforcement to keep it from sagging when laminated.  Plan to test it with a narrow hollow chamber in a street deck.
[/quote]

No, I have never tried anything like this before.  Its just something I got a wild hair to try.  I chose polyspan because it is (allegedly) much stronger than silkspan tissue, or even silk.  Also, being polyester, it is water resistant.

I'm glad to hear someone else has thought of this, and I encourage you to proceed with your tests.  Mike Torres (Camplus) did a skin-over-frame surfboard, using some type of kayak-vinyl, but he did not glass it.  It looked awesome, but he never followed up with a ride report.  I have always felt glass would be necessary, for rigidity of the shell.  Maybe someday I'll try what he did, 'tho, just to see what happens.

The nice thing about my framework is that if my board is a total failure, I can still apply a thin wood skin over the frame (as long as its intact - I assume its possible the whole thing could crumble into pieces first time a big wave breaks on it).  So if its just a case that the polyspan and fiberglass combination isn't adequate, all is not lost.

[quote] Did you paint your floor sealant over the polyspan only, to bond it with the frame?  Or did you coat the frame also before adding polyspan.  Will you seal the polyspan before glassing? [/quote]

I tried it both ways, didn't seem to make too much difference.  Painting the frame first did get a slightly better bond, but the paper is porous enough it works either way.  The top I did painting the frame first, the bottom I just put the tissue on and painted through it.  I have sealed the polyspan with three coats, which pretty much seals the pores, but the areas with tissue artwork will get more, obviously. 

[quote] Figured I would use epoxy on the frame, roll and press paper tissue over, and maybe blot tissue over wet frame resin to complete frame-bond saturation -- time is the issue.  Cure resin.  Tighten tissue with water. Aerosol seal once, maybe twice. Then laminate. [/quote]

Epoxy would be tricky, because you would have to get the tissue to apply wrinkle-free on the frame, which it doesn't want to do. If the epoxy set with a wrinkle, it would become permanent, and I doubt you could shrink it out.  Using heat, I could work the wrinkles out as I worked, but I found when the tissue wrinkled over the frame, it was best not to attach it there, until the wrinkled area was shrunk first.

[quote] EDIT:  Almost forgot.  Have you considered using something like the 1.45-2.1 oz industrial fabrics (volan) FG they have at Fiberglass Supply as a base laminate over your polyspan before adding a layer of heavier FG (4 or 6 S glass)? [/quote]

Yes, good point.  Pescadoloco has generously mailed me some 2 oz. glass, which I am thinking of using on the critical area of the deck (other than the planked area), under the 6 oz. (not planning on using s-glass on this one).  I may have some remnants of 4 oz. s-glass around also, I'll have to look.  I really don't know if I'd need the extra glass over the whole board, but I'd like to think not - that's why I built the grid so closely spaced - the open areas are 1&5/8 by 1&5/8.

52

Holy Huckleberry!!!

That thing is really incredible! I’m with Ken on this one, put that puppy on the market and get some serious cash my man! I would think a high end sushi place would love that as a wall hanger!

Stunning work Huck!

53

Didn’t mean to imply my idea was the same.  My design isn’t even close to your skilled artistry.  My frame plan is a crude skeleton in comparison.  The only real similarity is the use of airplane tissue for skins.  Besides, I don’t have the skills or woodworking knowledge to build what you have.

I knew of silkspan but, I had never heard of the unwoven polyester fabric for airplane skins until this thread – gotta love sways.  Did some Googling yesterday.  Some of the RC modelers swear by this stuff.

I still plan to at least try the “paper” tissue.  Pretty sure paper sagging under resin and glass is what I have to prevent/solve.  I had pretty much abandoned the idea until recently.  But a hollow chamber would solve a design/build issue I have.  I’ll experiment with paper tissue first (cost).  If that doesn’t work I’ll try the polyspan next.  This thread has me stoked again.

I don’t have much doubt that your build will succeed in the surf if you get good lamination with your glass.  I decided my chambers should be no more than 2.0" wide (heel width).  But my current project requires a very heavy glassing schedule anyway.  I think your 1-5/8" dims should work well.

What are you using to heat shrink the unwoven polyester fabric?  Hair dryer, iron?  How much heat, temp?

I am assuming your finish is something like MinWax water-based polyurethane?

My uncle and brother had collapsable kayaks with vinyl-like skins.  Believe they were called Folbots.

Really looking forward to seeing the completion of your artwork/sculpture Huck.  Don’t stop building and inventing surfboards, you have a gift.

 

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Thanks Woody and Bg, good lamination is a concern right now, but I have used this same polyurethane over paint before glassing, and gotten a good bond (epoxy resin), so I'm hoping for the same.  Its made locally by a paint store here, but I assume its pretty much the same as any water based polyurethane - I use it for interior doors, floors, and cabinets.  Yes, "tissue" covering under glass was the idea I was referring to, something I've been wanting to try for awhile, and I'm stoked anyone else would want to try it too. 

I was originally planning to go with heavy silkspan, but then shifted to polyspan once I learned of it.  It's really just dress lining fabric, so one might be able to buy it cheaper under that name, since I don't doubt the modeling suppliers are buying it that way, and marking it up then re-selling it as a modeling supply.  I have a modeling iron (for monokote) I picked up at a yardsale, that's what I started with, but halfway through I found that a standard blow dryer (also picked up at a yardsale LOL) works just as well, and is easier to use. 

If I could have afforded it, I would have used "balsaloc" to seal the wood, then you can use the heat iron to attach the fabric, as it is heat activated.  The advantage is you can attach a portion then immediately stretch the fabric to work out the wrinkles as you attach the rest.  With the "wet" method I used, you can't pull on it until the sauce has dried, so its a bit more limiting.  And of course, any area you apply the juice to, immediately sags and disfigures.  But it tightens up as it dries, and then the heat also tightens it.

If I had gone with silkspan, my approach would have been the same: attach it, shrink it, and seal it with several coats before glassing.  That should work.  When I have used silkspan in the past, I just applied it wet, and it shrunk tight when it dried. 

There was a guy on here who built a Sheldrake cardboard-grid surfboard, and he tried covering it with MonoKote before glassing - it worked well for a short time, then took in water, and dropped off the forum.  I think that's one problem with the cardboard, one ding and if you don't catch it in time, its all over.  I tried to avoid that by painting my structure, so that if it gets a ding I don't have to have a funeral for the poor thing right away hahaha. 

http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/im-building-64-hollow-core-cardboard-fish

I really don't know how the fiberglass / monokote bond would hold up over time, but I'm skeptical.  I'm hoping to get a better bond with the polyspan.

Here's some pics of Torres' skin-on-frame surfboard.  This is the thread http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/hws-deck-bracing-question-and-compsand-update

BTW, vinyl kayak skins have come a long way since the Folbot days, you should google around and see the stuff they're doing nowadays - this pic is from http://cruzkayaks.com/FOTOS.html

Several people encouraged me to go for the clear look, but I just don't feel comfortable with vinyl no glass, glass over plastic (monokote or vinyl...although the polyspan I used is in essence plastic, but different in nature from the glossy stuff), and I don't feel comfortable doing what Sheldrake himself does, which is glass over nothing.  http://www.sheldrake.net/cardboards/

I think IIRC he sets his glass up on a separate sheet, paints out his resin, and then applies it to the frame once it starts to set up.  He used to have details posted on his website, but anymore I think you have to buy the dvd to find out.  Anyway, you can see from the above pic that he doesn't get much more clarity than going over the tissue, anyway.

55

I discovered that the areas with colored tissue over the polyspan feel significantly stronger, so I decided to cover most if not all the board with colored tissue.  Originally I had just planned to use color in a few key areas.

I had to laugh at myself - guys are reinforcing their boards with kevlar and carbon fiber, and I'm going with tissue paper LOL.

I did a couple of kanji symbols on the deck by clipping them from black tissue. 

I took a break from working on the koi fish to do the deck, and I had a lot of fun with it, so now I'm only just getting back to the fish.  Its kinda cool doing all this color work with no tints or paints, just clipping pieces of tissue and brushing them on.  I found I could even do pinstripes by cutting skinny strips and just pasting them on very carefully with the clear polyurethane.

I had a couple days' work, so real quick I ran down to the paint store and bought another can of clear polyurethane finish.  I asked the salesman about going over it with epoxy - he said once its fully dried, you can go over with just about anything, no real issues that he's aware of.  Like I say, I have used it to seal my artwork before glassing (acrylic on wood) without any bonding issues, but that wasn't a whole board.

Just handling the board, it feels much "tougher" with the second layer of tissue.

56

Nice job. looks like alot of work…I hope it surfs as good as it looks

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A lot of time invested for sure, but it really hasn't felt like work.  When problems with my business, or the holiday traffic, or whatever, gets me stressed, I go work on this and I can immediately feel myself relaxing.

The shape is a variation of one I've done before, that works well for me.  This one is set up as a quad (which I've never done before, but I have backing in place for a center fin box if I want to add one later).

I intentionally chose to go with a slower, more tedious process on this one.  Its kind of an artistic rebellion against the assembly line mentality that pervades our society.  The kanji symbols mean "to show honor or respect" (by the nose) and "craftsman / worker" (by the tail). 

58

Huck

my friend

do not surf that board

that board is a piece of art!!!!!

you must display that beutiful example of craftsmanship and artistic talent, woven together, merged in harmony.

take it to an art exibit, I'll bet you it will fetch 3-4K,,,,easy 3

 

Best in show! fosho!

59

thank you Kensurf!

60

True Art Huck.

“We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.” ~ Li Po ~

One finds oneself in losing oneself.

Remove the speck of dust from the mirror.

Just do it.