The Surfer's Journal - Vol 14, No 4

[wildy]

You make a good point Dave, your workers, and others I’m sure, have little desire to learn something new. They know a unique skill and craft and it’s not unreasonable for them to continue the way they are, particularly if they can’t get further training, and more so if their employer has neither the means or motivation to do it. It’s all time and money, and very few have both.

When I was continually playing with boards and fins, the main comments I would get would be ‘why don’t you do it like everyone else?’ The guys like me, and I’m sure there are many out there right now, wanted something better, not to continue with the status quo.

I now have several years of more advanced composite skills, but as yet have not used these skills to make a board. I would not go back to making boards the poopee way as my present knowledge and experience would not let me. And if I was to train someone else I would not be doing it for nothing.

I think the burger will appeal to the larger manufacturers, who can financially handle a materials and technique shift. As long as they can a afford a burger technician to train the staff properly, and in my experience the staff should be paid for the training period.

The only downfall with that is that we all know it’s the surfboard industry. Bert obviously has loyal staff, I’m sure Nev has too. But most surfer boardmakers I know, given a new toy to play with, will run off and play on their own. Loyalty to an investment by others means nothing to them.

The industry has a lot of growing up to do, and sadly the growing pains are going to affect quite a few people. The banter here is perfect example, as the variation of Swaylock boardmakers make for some heated debate.

On another note, I spent the weekend in Silverton, Colorado, one of the meccas of extreme skiing. There I saw a handmade ski shop (the skiis, not the shop!), not unlike a small surfshop, except only skis, no clothes etc. Bummer it wasn’t open, being summer, but from what I could see peering through the window they were composite sandwich with timber veneers, some beautiful work. So handmade skiis do still exist, but they must be structurally competitive with the modern production models, even if they cost more.

And the skilled manufacturers are few and far between. Ring any bells?

[Bert_Burger]

yea dave were slowly working on it …

we will be doing gregs resin down here out of the goldy for starters …

i know what you mean dave about time and resources …

in years past i had put every last drop into R&D , i would be the guy working till all hours of the morning , experimenting and trying new stuff , come up with an improvement then it was into production the next week …

it was a slow process of working the bugs , i cant remember how many times something failed , i just had to wear the bill …

and yes , it took close to 5 years to completly change from one construction to the other …as time went on crew wouldnt even look at a poly when it was in the rack next to an epoxy , so ultimatly the market made the decision for me on what the preferences were …

as far as having a home set up , that has only been in the last few years , the bulk of R&D and product development was done when i was running a production , and to do that meant , putting a little extra effort in …

to be honest dave , its got to the stage where its virtually impossible for someone in the mainstream industry to start experimenting and change over …

the business has got so competitive and the margins have got so tight that most would be in your posistion dave …

found something today while cleaning out some filing draws …

see below …

this was with a few old epoxy resin reciepts from 90 . theres more information within the document about the methods metioned …

but it fits with our discussion here …

back then i couldnt get enough information about all this new stuff , as soon as i knew it existed , i wanted to apply the same techniques to surfboards , by 91 i had a solid product in the market place , of coarse more refinement has still taken place …

a year or 2 later plenty of guys in our industry over here had the opportunity to get demos on the results of such construction , strength , weight , costs , a basic run down on construction , trevor wright of sailboard systems showed them and the benifits to the industry over here …

one board in question was 2.4 kg , 7’-8" x 19 3/8 x 2 1/2 … everyone would freak at the strength and weight and the testimonials about performance , but alas , werent interested in change …

i know i even got a call from you dave over 10 years back , expressing interest …

but as you know alot has changed in the last 10 years …

cheap foreign imports , and to make matters worse superior construction technology , stronger lighter …

retailers formed buying groups , surf companies went corparate …

now we still have to make a living the best way we know how …

a handful of crew have sold us out , they put there labels on foreign imports and gave the whole concept credability …

first the retailers formed the buy up groups , started indenting whole containers from asia to share between them and got ridiculous prices , then high profile labels were approached to brand the cheap imports and give the retailers even more clout , then cobra woke up and started GSI , and now you have surftech , nsp , south coast , giving retailers the deals of the century …

GSI have started doing the retailer rounds , and offer a standard urethane board with all the fruit , pinlines, gloss ,your label or theres 259.00 …recomended retail 599.00 or higher …

come on man ,in the late 90s maurices boards were wholesaling here for low 500s

so now 5 years later you have boards being sold wholesale for half of what they were back then …

a guy over here sacked all his staff and gets all his boards done in thailand , he makes more money and doesnt even have to touch a blank anymore …

how many crew do you know who actually wholesale to retailers anymore ???

besides those with high profile labels who run adds and have pros ??

im seeing retailers who run the asian boards actually increase there rack space coz now there making profit on boards again …

a retailer makes 5 times as much on a board from asia as a local guy who builds and sells it direct …

and now middlemen who have sniffed out a profit margin , are dumping containers of boards into retail outlets on CONSIGNMENT , can you believe that …

for retailers its just not viable to support local board builders and those that do , are doing it out of loyalty…

and amidst this whole quagmire of an industry , guys are still trying to reject technology that has the potential to keep it going …

dave , dont get me wrong …

im not writing off the industry at all , just some of the personalities in it …

id love to say , some of the opportunities ive rejected , because taking them even tho making me a buck , would have resulted in further hardship for the industry …

i would love my son to have a place in this business , but as it stands now there wont be an industry , just like greg said …

backyarders and imports sold by retailers …

what were setting up , is for local board builders and designers first …

when it starts happening , i will come and see you dave …keeping this industry alive is important to me …

our whole surf culture is structured around the surfboard …

theres plenty of crew , who have hung in there , plus those who havent sold out to asia …

there the guys we wanna involve …

im pro local industry all the way …

i could easily just say shove it , 15 years of abuse and dissing , most crew in the industry deserve to go out of business for being hard headed red necks …

but we do what we think we have to do to stay in business , and if that means bagging emerging technology coz its seen as a threat , well thats all it was , no hard feelings , just the occasional jibe or reminder from me…

going back to that article in surfers journal …

those crew in those insulated protected surfboard markets are in for a rude shock …

these massive asian production houses have been circling like buzzards , picking off the smaller markets and testing the waters with different stratagies to get market share …

and yet there is another option , got this email today from cali …

How’s it going Bert? We’re all still waiting for surf. You are right about

that number you found. I told bernie that the big south swell is going to

hit after he lives HA HA! But everything here is still good. Thanks for

writing back and if you need any information from up here just ask. O yeah I

took acouple boards into a few local shops to let them have a look see and

found that they all want them, do to the fact that most of their customers

as of late want to buy a board but don’t because they know the boards aren’t

going to last. So all of the store owners were extremly impressed and

excited. I hope everything is well and I will write back soon.

                                                                  Later

                                                                    Gabe 

see the difference new technology makes , thats the market talking …

not my personal agenda …

technology is the answer …

you think a shop will buy a locally made poly when they can get brand name asian imports for half the price ??

a shop cant get a custom sandwich board from asia , and even if they could its a 3 month wait …

with new technology , the industry has the opportunity to cut both asian imports and greedy retailers who sold us out , completly out of the picture , then re establish things on our terms …

for all this there is still the asian imports to thank …

because there target market was the entry level , even tho many dont progress to hard core surfers , alot still do …

so now there up for a custom , they go from there moulded durable light epoxy sandwich board , and get a urethane board , im hearing groans of disgust from these up and coming surfers , now there forced onto something heavier and weaker , because they cant get a custom in the construction theyve learnt on …

there tastes have been dictated by the boards they learnt on …

to me i cant possibly be any clearer …

like greg said , you have more surfers entering the market than ever , yet in every location , local industry is reducing numbers and going out of business , losing market share to ???

is that the market leading the industry ???

for all those hard core and regular surfers who would never ride a moulded epoxy sandwich board , you are the only ones keeping what industry there still is alive …only because you dont have the option of custom sandwich …

lobster , sorry to have to re mention you in the discussion , but earlier you noted that my comments dripped with arrogance …

that may be true , but were not talking opinions , were not talking about me bagging stuff because i dont do it , or because i dont like it …

all ive done is respond to my customers wants and needs and put in a little effort to suit there requests and then learnt a few things along the way …

so yea that makes me arrogant …

but please have a close look at the ignorant attitudes of some of those interviewed …

im not doing what my customers want , it makes me itchy …

im not listening to my customers coz i dont like waiting for resin to dry …

im not listening to my customers coz i dont like the way an epoxy board rode …

im not listening to my customers coz there to hard to shape …

im not doing what my customers want coz i dont like the way they look …

i wont listen to what crew want coz i dont like the noise they make when they hit the water …

im not listening to what the market is doing because its to hard to work with …

i wont listen to my customers coz i dont like riding the same board for to long …

i ignore what my customers want coz im to busy …

im not interested in my customers requests , because , soul???

lets put those comments in perspective and see if you dont have some descriptive words to apply to our industry leaders …

but hey i might just hang back a little longer with the plan , wait for my grass to grow and see who shows up to mow it ??

it may be some famous guy who used to round off the rails on urethane blanks …

look at the obvious …

regards

BERT

[GreatWhiteNorth]

western canada = fun if you’ve got a boat to access the reefs (at which stage you’ll have to acknowledge the true power of the pacific; roiling and nasty; bring your Gravol), or lucky if you score Sombrio or JR or any of the other south island breaks. otherwise…sloppy beach break for you (which on the right tide and right swell angle can get good)…and be prepared to wait for the waves, though they talk about that. I’m fine year round in my 5/4/3 excel with 5 mil booties…

eastern canada = making sure you’ve got about a months worth of holidays to wait for a decent swell, or a very strategic attack based on what you’ve seen on the swell models…and even then your airfare is gonna cost heaps…prolly almost cheaper to go to CR…and NOW you’re talkin cold…icebergs in the line-up?

and as an aside…

I’ll ride the poopees I have left until they break. I’ll sell’em used too if I can get enough funds to finance another basement project…out of epoxy and EPS; maybe even some balsa next time around. I’ve got a pop-out and it is at least as good as my average poopees. Not as good as a magic board, but pretty damn sweet and in light of my situation (having to travel for waves), I’m more confident that when I get to the swell, my gear will be with me; intact. Ain’t any harder to fix, works pretty well; could be better; enter custom epoxy (sandwich or not) boards. Greg and Bert are right; if it’s not some insular little sect where people are so scared of being criticized for trying out something new, change will happen. I was struck by the homogeneity of Southern Cal while I lived there…I bet a higher percentage of people are riding composites and epoxy in other regions around North America…

Point being, it’s not just the newbies/kooks/oblivious consumers that are buying the surftechs or boardworks…it’s also seasoned surfers looking to try something new and know that when they strip the wax off after a few sessions or trust their boards to a gorilla at the airport, that it won’t be covered in heel dents and rail cracks. There’s more than a few here at Sways…and I’m sure that if there were another option, we’d be on it. How long till the Surfburger makes it across the pond?

Finally, how many surf shops will let you take a traditionally made board out for a demo? No one. Why? They can’t; it’ll come back and look beat and their margin on the sale will be gone. Wanna sell some boards? Make boards that customers can surf for a session without it looking trashed; do some on the water demos; try out a few different sizes/shapes/designs. End of the day, I guarantee they’ll pull out their wallets if you’ve filled their need. Always hated having to drop the coin to know if a board was gonna rule or suck.

[tomatdaum]

Change is a scary thing. If you can make a profit from doing things the way you’ve always done them, tendencies are to keep doing it that way. I see parallels in two industries that have already gone through this evolution. The U.S. auto makers sat on their laurels for twenty plus years into the late seventies and had to face the realities of globalization and foreign competion. As oil prices rise they will again. But, even more close to our industry is the yacht building industry. For years Costa Mesa was the mecca of yacht building. Population density, over seas competition and environmental regulations have changed that for ever.

I just spent the weekend with the son of a major player in U.S. yacht building. Columbia yachts was a major player in the sixties and seventies. Today the next generation is attempting to revive the Columbia name in domestic sailboat manufacture. They are doing so via infusion technology and core composites. But, the numbers are slow in coming. I won’t get into specifics. But, they will be lucky if they get enough orders to cover the initial tooling expenses this year. The first boats they have produced have had very respectable results for a thirty foot sport boat. Sixteen knots in flat water for a 30’ racer/ cruiser is nothing to scoff at. But, the market is not warming to their product with the same enthusiasm as another thirty footer that was domestically designed and will be produced in China. And, there aren’t even any finished boats to compare the two. But, the orders seem to be going richter based on an as yet to be proven promised low price/performance ratio. One of the key issues that was pointed out to me was the high cost of consumables involved in infusion. When it’s all said and done the consumables (i.e. stuff that get’s used and thrown away/ sent to a land fill) is just about as expensive as the total amount of resin that they use to build an entire boat. But, it is very clean and with the proper location of infusing input locations can produce a very effecient void free laminent. Most companies just don’t make that radical of a chance until they are losing money from outside competition.

Globalization will force change on all industries. It will be/has been a good thing for the consumers. It’s a very tough thing for manufacturers to remain competitive. New brands will emerge, some old brands will fall by the way side. Some people will take risks and be rewarded. More will fail. But, that is no reason to become a protectionist advocate. It only prolongs the inevitable. As a manufacturer that is competing in this market I can tell you it’s a very tough deal to make a profit in this type of environment. But, we are doing everything we can to produce quality products at a competitive price. It’s not an easy row to hoe. But, if you’re looking long term, you better be thinking creatively and proactively. It’s those that are in for the profit here today that are resisting change. And, I can’t say that many of them haven’t already invested years of work to get where they are and deserve to make some money now. But, tomorrow is another day. Manufacturers will need to look very closely at the risk/reward ratio to remain competitive over the long haul.

[Nels]

Quote:

Change is a scary thing. If you can make a profit from doing things the way you’ve always done them, tendencies are to keep doing it that way. I see parallels in two industries that have already gone through this evolution. The U.S. auto makers sat on their laurels for twenty plus years into the late seventies and had to face the realities of globalization and foreign competion. As oil prices rise they will again. But, even more close to our industry is the yacht building industry

Boy oh boy - three things here that are so ripe! I’ll toss another analogy in later…

Let’s start with the U.S. auto industry. They have let themselves get right back into the same situation they were in in 1974, pumping out gas guzzling pigs in a time of oil shortage…this is hugely more complicated when you factor in stuff like planned obsolesence etc, but for the purposes of this discussion lets just say they kept building what was selling without creating a new market for newer technology even while they knew a day would come soon when that tech was needed. The Japanese auto manufacturers will popularize the hybrid eco vehicles and eventually Detroit will try to play catch-up, allowing brand-loyal customers to pay more for lesser quality from quickly developed and produced knock-offs of superior foreign product. Patience for this is going to wear thin.

Think disposeable machine shaped 4oz glass 'Merikan thrusters with a 4-6 month lifespan at $450 vs. Asian import for $250. They all look the same inside a boardbag or on the roof of the car…or in the landfill.

With the whole petro-chemical thrashing fiasco, with the consuming giant of China rearing up demanding to buy at fair market value more and more oil, with the environmental issues resulting from any chemical usage transforming into workplace restrictions and regulations, anybody can see the surfboard materials business is going to have major changes.

The yacht building industry had the benefit of literally thousands of years of boat building preceding the twentith century. That industry literally has seen change many times before. Surfboard building is such a young thing that most of the pioneers are still alive, and most of them got into it when they were young, and at a time when the surf world was very small and insulated. Traditionally the guys who have radically changed surfboard construction and technology have all been surfers with exposure to other industries, most notably aircraft. As surfing has generated more and more money in the past two and a half decades it has allowed more and better “careers” within the sport with maybe less input from people who have gone outside the club to make a living.

When I was in the aerospace industry I used to get the same comment at every performance review: “resistent to change”. And every review I would get to point out that I was not resistent to rational, planned change…I just never got to experience it. What I would get was sudden, unplanned, unforseen upheaval. Things like suddenly, literally overnight losing 66% of production capability for an undetermined period…try explaining that to customers, many of whom worked for companies listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Or having the president of the parent company commit my company to deliver parts in a time so short that the material order lead time was longer than the delivery date.

Managing a transition can be done. It can be planned, scheduled, budgeted, and implemented. First off the managers need to know a transition is/may be coming. It’s a “three little pigs” thing. Waiting until you have no choice is disaster. Spending youself into oblivion doesn’t do you any good either. It really sounds to me that this is a transition time for surfboard building. The technology is there to do something different, the market forces are creating pressures, the general news of the day holds portents…

In another thread we’ve been having fun with NASA and the (less fatal) space shuttle foam issues, but let me add the space shuttle to Tom’s two examples. As the Apollo program wound down and the shuttle program made it’s way through Congressional funding, a lot of design changes were made to meet a much lower spending program. This was back in the early 1970’s. I am told the computers we visit Swaylock’s on today are as good or better than what was available for the shuttles. Years go by, technology advances, shuttle technology eventually flies and works…cost cutting comes in, everything routine, etc. The Challenger blows up (design weakness direct result of pre-manufacturing cost cutting)…not so routine. Incremental upgrades through the years, more flights, and then another disaster. We find out that this was an accident waiting to happen. Somewhere during the life of this program a decision was made to consolidate physical business locations and an astronomical number of original program engineers and technicians retire or leave the business rather than move. A new president decides to send man back to the moon and on to Mars. It’s a funny predicament. There is no new technology on the immediate horizon, in part because conventional wisdom felt it wouldn’t be needed for another 10-15 years. There is hardly anybody left who worked on the old pre-shuttle technology. Current shuttle engineers famously resort to E-Bay to find spare parts for systems.

I am told China has plans for a knock-off shuttle; I guess the NASA could lease to own. This would be a good cautionaly fable, except it’s all true…

[tomatdaum]

Nel’s,

    I agree inorder to survive a manufacturer needs to be rational about rates of change and what percentage of their net worth they are willing to gamble with on new technology. But, there is always someone hungrier than you sitting right around the corner or one day over night air mail away. That's just a fact of the age we live in. In the long run standards of living will equalize around the world. Electronic communications will/are raising the expectations of people the world over. But, in the short term we have a labor rate disparity that can not be ignored. The people that are going to get ahead are those with the intellectual property they can sell to a demanding mass of consumers. If that commodity requires alot of labor, the markets is going to force the supplier offshore. If it's not environmentally green it's also going to get sent to someone elses backyard. So, our ideas and our standards are our only tools of value. And, if we get complacent and lazy they aren't of much value. It's all about how hard/smart you are willing to work.

[MarkSpindler]

Anyone see the Sunday NY Times, yesterday?

Magazine section, article on cryovaking. New trend cooking foods in vacuum sealed bag. Sound familiar? (Cooking epoxy boards in vac bags. D’oh!) Developed by a non-chef too.

Actually I was doing that kind of cooking ten years ago. I’d visit my Grandmother. She got her food delivered by a restaurant supply company. They had these salmon filets in lemon dill butter sauce vacuum sealed bag in which you cooked the fish. They were my favorite. So easy. Drop frozen bag in boiling water for a few minutes…voila!

Great taste and didn’t stink up the house. All the flavor stayed in the bag and the fish was cooked in it. Grama passed away two years ago at 102. So age should be no deterrent to try different things.

One point of the article was that industrial food processing techniques are via chefs working their way into the kitchen.

Crew needs to get out and look around once in a while. Good to breath the fresh air, and see what other people are doing. And stop being so damn critical of others who do.

During WWII Henry Kaiser could build a complete Liberty ship in 4 days 15 hours.

In the late 60’s the Chinese bought a Boeing 707 and duplicated all the parts and built their own “copy”. It didn’t fly. They forgot about center of gravity.

They won’t make that mistake again.

True about NASA engineers getting processors off Ebay. They use the old 386 and 486. Why? No unknown problems with those old chips. Or so I have been told.

Today’s digital watches have more computing power than the onboard computers of Apollo.

Random thoughts…

[meecrafty]

ok to sum up then…

globalization/corporatization

vs.

the stubborn artist/craftsman/boardbuilder who is either in denial or simply doesnt want to compete on such a grand biz level…

…seems pretty obvious where its all going…

walmart v. mom&pop stores…

same shit different industry

hey gwn,

interesting comments…kind of what FCS does…try’m, keep’m or trade’m in…yeah could never do that with a poopee…heel dings the size of salad plates after a few waves…there goes all my profit, better sell some tees to make up for it…

[oceanrider]

like reading the obituary…TSJ gives glory to the problem…thank god for swaylocks

[oneula]

Bert

don’t know if any of this is helpful and it’s mostly old news but just in case you haven’t been exposed to Seth Godin. Here’s a couple of his projects for reference.

http://www.sethgodin.com/purple/

http://www.sethgodin.com/ideavirus/01-getit.html

Kind of like guidebooks to the current struggle you’re facing in trying to create change against a fairly entrenched status quo.

My job as a product manager is to create products that hopefully make thousands if not miilions of dollars from corporations who in turn I presume pass those costs on to you. And obviously this all gets tougher as all our markets for resources consolidate and price pressures squeeze margins. But sooner or later no matter how old and entrenched the largest commercial entity is (outside of government ones)they have make those difficult changes inorder to stay competitive. But you learn it’s all cyclic and bell curved but things come to the right place over time. Until you can convince a company that what they are doing will put them out of business or at least reduce their chances for survival it’ll aways be status quo…

I think you hear an underlying theme in some of the comments provided but as exposure to your sways induced virus grows exponentially, then the change you so desperately want to see happen will drive itself. Purple cows have to sell themselves you can’t drive that, but you can help push it along once it gains momentum like Randy did once he got some momentum and like the chinese are doing now that their foot is in the door. The key is getting more product out there for more exposure to what’s possible versus what’s actually being provided now, then the revolution will come from within. If everyone here on sways who learned how to do this vacuum sandwich shuffle spent the time to pass this knowledge on to their neighborhood groms and gave away early project boards as demo’s I think you’d start to see the beginning of the virus spreading among those who need to drive the change… the end consumer… How about providing shops with a single demo board for rental services.

education is the key.

the power of all of us swaylockers showing a grem/grom how they can start building their own balsa/sandwich using glue, cheap foam, a sanding block, some tape and a straight razor is a very powerful and maybe the most powerful spark you can generate to spread the vius. Eye’s only get opened only through personal experience be that joy or pain. What I learned here from Sways and from CMP’s guidance and experience is not mine to hoard for my own personal benefit which I’m sure alot of us are doing today. But its to take the responsibility to pass this knowledge on to others so that what ever this change we’re all expecting has a chance to fester, to mutate and to take what ever course it’s going to as it goes on it’s merry way…

Yes, surfboard building is a mature business and if it doesn’t change it’s apt to be changed… But like some have said here earlier, if the customers aren’t coming in asking for something then why are you doing it? Somehow or another the ones who pay the bills for those that provide these objects need to realize that they are somehow coming up short, getting ripped off being used as a cash cow for someone else’s pocket… I think then you’ll see the drive to go elsewhere to demand the same expectations that they place on all other consumer based high ticket items… The same kid wouldn’t put up with a PSP or computer or ipod that lasted only 6 months that costs the same amount of money. They need to start feeling the same about these toys as well, but they have to actually see that there’s actually a better solution that’s not being provided intentionally… So we all have a responsibility to get boards out there free or what ever, just get as many out there as possible and see what happens… Like Shwuz says… the best you can do is to plant the seeds of change and then stand back and nurture it…

Just an observation from a nobody in this business.

But someone who’ll at least try to do some of the things mentioned above to in someway honor what’s been passed on to me.

[djk]

lobster,

Walk in either Gregs or berts shop. Bring along your favorite poly board. Lift it in the air and see if you have the nuts to throw it a good 10 feet. Then ask greg to do the same. When you are done wiping your eyes and give Greg his hankerchief back, order a couple boards and learn something. You are completely ignorant to what these 2 guys have going on, so badmouthing them or saying the proof is in the puddin is ridiculous.

I do not agree with either of them accusing the interviewed shapers as not giving the consumer the best product. I think many people still actully feel poly is the best answer.

I have a couple epoxy boards ive made for myself, a couple poly boards…and plans to make many more of each, while testing the benifits and possibilities.

This thread is completely insane. With that said…I enjoyed the article alot. Got me stoked on making my older bro a log.

[lobster]

DJK,

Apparently you lack the sophistication and brainpower to distinguish between a strident argument and “badmouthing” one’s debate opponent. While I am certainly guilty of the former I’m utterly innocent of the latter.

I think even Bert understands and accepts that he possesses an abundant ego and arrogant opinions regarding the shapers in the article, and anyone else who sticks up for “poopies.” For me to call him on it, is not “badmouthing.” For both he and Greg to call those shapers clueless, is.

Furthermore, I am not “completely ignorant” of what they both have “going on.” I have followed the many threads they have posted in which they and others have discussed their products. As for Greg, I have used his methods and materials in building a few of my own boards. I simply am not “sold” on his product. As for Bert, I have yet to see his boards in person or know of them gaining a following anywhere the “mainstream.” Does this mean I’m badmouthing him or his product? No, simply that the jury is still out. The proof will indeed be in the pudding. I do wonder though why the mainstream hasn’t caught on yet. Is it a conspiracy? Is the surf media and “poopie” industry leaders in league against Bert? Or is it simply his own bad marketing?

Both of them constantly rail of a coming apocalypse and that we all need to join them on their ascension to the comet, lest we be hopelessly damned. As Slim pointed out, they might attract a few more followers if they changed to a more positive approach rather than insisting everyone but themselves are idiots.

As for heaving my favorite poly board, which I’ll have you know has lasted for over thirty years and still gets in the water, I prefer to SURF my boards.

[allblack]

You know, it might be useful for those that were apparently offended by the answers of these shapers to get on the phone and call one or two of them and ask questions. Each would surely elaborate on what is being read between the lines of an interview that was less than 1 page long. I know one of these guys quite well and I know he would be more than happy to discuss that issue with anyone.

To call out these guys for resisting change is unfair. Several of these guys helped to bring on major design changes in the mid-60s and early-70s. While those changes were without a doubt design related, they suggest an openness to new ideas and approaches.

I suspect that many people here would be interested in hearing an “extended” interview on this subject.

[blakestah]

I’m quite sure the composite construction makes for a product better in almost every way compared to PU/PE construction.

The real $1,000,000 question is…

is anyone capable of bringing a custom sandwich construction to market at $600 or less (shortboard), or $750 or less (longboard).

I see lots of avid surfers eye-ing the new surftech shortboards at $600. Many are willing to spend an extra $75 to get a durable shortboard with a proven shape. None of them will spend $1000 for it.

Maybe this seems unreasonable, but I don’t think the market has much room for $1000 shortboards.

That’s the real challenge. And it all comes down to hours of skilled labor in production (domestic), or just plain getting a good factory up and running (imports). A lot of production engineering, either way.

And I think the crew here is really underestimating how many PU/PE shapers have contemplated this and decided there is no way to make a living making sandwich boards. I even know one shaper who has made hundreds, will still make them, but does only a handful a year because they simply cost too much to sell very many. I saw a five year old board he had shaped. It had been smashed against rocks, flown off the roof rack, and only scratched the paint. The owner was going to get another one done. But they are rare (people who value the $1000 board).

But Bert has enthusiasm and talent, obviously, and he’s taking on a big challenge…mass producing these boards at cost effective levels. I hope he succeeds…and has strong IP protection.

[Feraldave]

hi dan thanks for your ideas.

i do have a vacuum pump, i havent had time to pick up bagging supplies yet, i have fibreglass hawaii epoxy and ATL epoxys, i have access to an abundance of computer cut poly blanks, easy access to pualonia, ebache, and balsa, what i dont have is time… doing 6-8 pu boards a day,on the floor 6 days a week in my retail store, managing the factory and the website, creating all the graphics for the boards… my staff are all kept busy in the factory trying to take home a decent earn… anyone out there want to come work for me with epoxy and bagging experiance… hello anyone out there… hello… i cant hear anyone… most with those skills thats clever/skilled enough will do thier own instead and not work for wages…

[meecrafty]

Maybe this seems unreasonable, but I don’t think the market has much room for $1000 shortboards.

i wonder about this too but here’s another $1M question:

if you rode one and it blew you away in every aspect, including 3X durability, would you go back to a disposable $500 board?

not saying that it will blow you away but there are plenty of $50k+ cars riding 'round these here streets…it wont replace a ford or chevy but at least there’s a bmw or porche or ferrari available if youve got the bucks…totally depends on the local market…my market could support such prices if it delivers better performance or value or both…wont replace poopee…dont think it will anytime soon…but std eps can offer a good more durable alternative…the only real question is who’s machine or factory is gonna be making em…

chill guys…everyone is entitled to his opinion

[oneula]

My point exactly but you have to get your product out to the market in quantity for the world to see first hand.

When a group here wanted to develop a local grown rose market ie Kamuela Roses they stood out in the noon sun and gave away their product to secretaries downtown at lunch time for a year as well as gave then away at any promo opportunity they could get ahold of until locals realized that roses grown here in Hawaii were just as good as those imported from the mainland. The nice thing is that although they started off more expensive they are now cheaper. The same thing happened with the moi fish farm they developed 1 mile offshore here in Ewa Beach. Get the product out into the market and let your customers find out that yeah it tastes just as good as boat or net caught fish… And guess what it end up cheaper in the long run once the investment depreciates out…

Whether you consider it dumping or not… you have to at all costs get your product into the hands of your target customers, the market you expect to drive adoption.

As long as it’s near impossible to walk into your favorite surf shops and test out a snappy/balsa/epoxy/sandwich constructed non-pu/pe board for yourself at a nominal fee you are never going to reach that end user you so enviously desire. That’s exactly what Surftech did in the beginning and that what the chinese did by going first into Sams Club and Costco with their initial forays… Trying to get an entire industry to change is the completely wrong approach, getting the customer to change is both the challenge and the opportunity.

I’m sure the economics will work themselves out if this is to be a mass marketed product otherwise if it’s niche your market is already here (yup there’s a bunch of us waiting to pay our $1000AUD site unseen). No one in this pitiful surf business (and yes it’s a pitiful insignificant microcosm of the economy when you compare it to oil, finance, weapons making, drugs and even autos) has the dollars it takes and the governmental powers to change popular thought like some companies can. If your product doesn’t have a sustainable life then it won’t survive as a mass marketed product as a niche possibly yes…

If you really want to change the industry, then damage it by getting the EPA and OSHA to start enforcing existing laws in the books and break the back of all these shops illegally servicing this demand. Just doing that legislatively would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. It’s just too cost prohibitive without some form of resource pooling for this industry to exist as it does today without violating all the EPA rules regarding toxins and OSHA workplace/ workman’s comp insurance strangle holds every other business has to deal with. When I saw those pictures of Greg shaping that blank at cerritos with no mask and with foam bubbles all over himself and his surroundiings, I wonder how many environmental laws were broken just doing that demo. How much life was lost did those in attendance who sucked down some micro balloons in their lungs just to experience watching their wizard in action…

Funny thing is I don’t see anyone from either side of the story really doing anything other than being your typical self centered give me my pleasure at all costs surfer dude.

There’s got to be more to all this than it just being decandent fun cause if it’s not, then we should all just go our merry way and keep screwing the environment, filling up the landfills with our PU/PU remnants, suck down our alcohol and take our drugs like the rest of the world envisions us to be as a culture. You know the who care’s cause I won’t be around when it all goes to pot…

There’s alot more change that needs to be made here than just what kind of boards we ride…

Maybe that’s the problem…

Sorry long day at work…

just looking for some light at the end of the tunnel here and don’t see it…

[Bert_Burger]

ok a few points , then i will bow out and see where it goes …

lobster , i think your putting words in my mouth …

what did i say originally about the crew in the interview ??

a few were tuned , the rest were in denial or didnt have a clue …

to keep things in perspective , i was particularly focusing that comment towards opinions on new materials …

thats it …

now as someone who has run dual productions and seen first hand which style of board customers prefer , the comments made by those who tried to shape one , or rode one once , have no weight what so ever …

there opinions on new materials , techniques , composite combinations , indicate total cluelessness to the potential possibilities …

does that make me arrogant because i highlighted someones ignorance ??

if someone you knew was circulating information you knew wasnt true , or was misleading … would you say something ?? or just except thats their opinion ???

when you say things that arent inline with actual facts , its makes you look stupid …but if the person you say them to doesnt know the facts the opinions or words are fine …

remember greg and myself were raised building polys , we understand both technologies and have done enough searching into both styles to come to an informed and logical conclusion …

if there was no market for what i build i wouldnt build them …

but when you have a 600 dollar board next to a 1000 board and the 1000 boards walk out the door whats that say ???

when a standard secondhand board surfed once ,fetches 150 as a trade , because gsi have come in the market with brand new wholesale boards at 250 , thus devaluing all secondhand boards … why would a shop pay 200 or more for a trade when they can get a brand new one for 250 and more than double there money …

now compare that to a composite board i build , in the last few years people have paid more for a second hand one than what it cost new …

the market decided the direction my business took , i just went with the flow and adapted at the time , no excuses …

to me its obvious when the polys sit in the racks for years and then get discounted with dents in them , and the epoxy composites are either sold before there finished or were ordered 12 months prior …

my customers had a choice , they chose , its that simple …

i walk into other shops and the customer doesnt have a choice , so he buys whats available …

by not offering a choice , the door gets left open for composite imports …

personally im offended by crew saying im arrogant or have an ego , when all it is , is a caring attitude and a willingness to help and point crew to where the market is shifting …

from my vantage point , ive seen things all you regular poly builders havent …

if your not interested in my observations , then my conscience is clean …

good luck , hope things work out …

ive got work to do …

regards

BERT

[haubush]

Bert ,sent you a PM.

kinda off the subject…

regards.

HB