The Surfer's Journal - Vol 14, No 4

General Discussion
41
Quote:

ok to sum up then…

globalization/corporatization

vs.

the stubborn artist/craftsman/boardbuilder who is either in denial or simply doesnt want to compete on such a grand biz level…

…seems pretty obvious where its all going…

walmart v. mom&pop stores…

same shit different industry

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pretty funny…remember, you can’t get lithium batteries at the mom and pop stores. we’ve tried that.

42

Where Greg is shaping, that whole back wall is an OSHA approved air filter, but to hear Greg talk we had to shut it down. This is the area where gel coats and laminations and molds are made and it smells of poly. If we would of had a skosh more time we coulda hooked up my vacuum hose system that I got from Foam-ezy to a planer. But as it was, I stayed there till 10 o’clock the Friday night before the event to help Terry get the shop all cleaned up and ready for all the self centered, decadent, environment screwers. Too much drama for me.

WE are the future… What If the lie was nothing more than - poopee boards flex?

43
Quote:

you have to get your product out to the market in quantity for the world to see first hand.

…As long as it’s near impossible to walk into your favorite surf shops and test out a snappy/balsa/epoxy/sandwich constructed non-pu/pe board for yourself at a nominal fee you are never going to reach that end user you so enviously desire.

…the bottom line .

Now , regarding the Surfers Journal Interview …

…for us unfortunates who don’t get to see / read that mag , can someone please scan some photos from the interview and / or tell us what interested you in the article ?

cheers !

ben [ getting tired of the epoxy / polyester pissing matches …give it a break , guys !]

44

I’m kicking out on this one for now. Sorry if I’ve offended anyone, that was not my intention. Just to back up and rethink a bit, I think allblack makes the best point on this whole matter…the interview with these shapers is most assuredly incomplete. I’m sure if the editors at TSJ had granted more space for the article they all could have expounded more on the topic and their opinions and we all would have had a clearer picture. I doubt any of them are clueless about other construction techniques but for personal and/or business reasons, they have not made the switch. On my own much, much, much smaller scale operation, I’ve not had one customer yet even inquire about epoxy or sandwich constructed boards. And if I told them they had to pay $1000 for them, I’m sure they’d just move on down the street to the next garage guy building the $375 “poopie.”

Anyway, Irene is providing some tropical punch as I speak so I’m off.

45

" ben [ getting tired of the epoxy / polyester pissing matches …give it a break , guys !]"

I’m with Ben on this one. ENOUGH ALREADY. And if you can’t let it rest, at least keep it respectful… Neither camp is going to convince 100% of the other side.

PS Derogatory comments and thinly veiled or backhanded insults don’t belong on Swaylocks, no matter what the topic.

46

Before I agree with Keith and Ben I’d just like to add that disinformation is dangerous.

"And if I told them they had to pay $1000 for them, I’m sure they’d just move on down the street to the next garage guy building the $375 “poopie.”

I’m sure they would, and not without muttering a few words about what a rip off too. Don’t know where you got these numbers from, but they are wacked. Fact: A friend just three weeks ago bought a spanking new 7’0" Loehr Design EPS/RR from Surf Station for $439. with fins, no bargaining, set price. Almost sprained his elbow reaching for his wallet:-) Got him to come down on the Surftech for his son though. His son had also wanted a Loehr, but the Loehr Design section stock was low. So he got a CIS Surftech instead. They are in Costa now and they both wanted epoxy for the trip. So don’t go spreading any false information. YOU wont be making any friends that way. Especially not here, where people know their pricing, because they set the prices! (Where did you think you were anyway?)

Okay now I’ll leave quietly with Ben and Keith and the rest who have already left the room. Again I’m the doormat

47

Mark,

I’m really trying to let this go, but two quick points:

  1. The $1000 dollar tag I came up with is a ball park number for a board of Bert’s type construction. Go to his website and check for yourself.

  2. The $375 is a number I can produce for a bare bones, clear poly shortboard, in my area, taking account for my costs. For a Greg type eps/epoxy board, the number would be roughly $100 more. Still a considerable difference when dealing with your average surfer type with shallow pockets.

Maybe I’m not familiar with costs in Australia, California, Florida or NJ, but I sure as heck know the prices in my neck of the woods.

48

And as long as we are commenting on misinformation, I’d like to remind those hyping the durability thing that to the majority of surfers, poly boards are not “disposable”. Most of us don’t live in Hawaii. Most of us never break our boards. I’ve said it before - I’ve been surfing over 20 years and have never broken a board and never even seen it happen out there. Dings yes - but not enough that it’s been too time consuming to maintain the boards.

The best surfers in the world don’t care about durability because they get boards for free. The average joe doesn’t surf waves that require super strength boards. That leaves a small percentage of hardcore hell raisers out there that need stronger boards.

As a customer, I most likely would indeed buy another $500 poly board than spend $1000 on a board that would “last forever.” Why? Because my $300 - $500 boards have also lasted forever. My current quiver consists of: an ancient electric duck twin 5’10", '80s merrick quad , '96 cole 6’3" thruster , '97 harbour simms 9’0" , '99 pearson twin ,'97 ward coffey (local guy) 6’11" thruster, '00 malcolm cambell bonzer 5, '03 harbour spherical revolver.

The '95 al merrick twin finner I left with a friend in japan when i moved back to california in '98 is still alive and kicking without a single delam. I surfed it at least 200 days over 3 years there and my friend has been using it as a rental board ever since! Yes, the waves there are small and harmless - but that describes the majority of the waves surfed by surfers around the world. Thus my point.

49

I think it’s time for an ambrose post to clear the air and make everyone happy!!!But Ben does a decent job of that!!!

Right on!

Me personally…

I AM SICK TO DEATH OF EPOXY/POLY…it’s making Swaylocks much less fun!

Drew

50
Quote:

the interview with these shapers is most assuredly incomplete. I’m sure if the editors at TSJ had granted more space for the article they all could have expounded more on the topic and their opinions and we all would have had a clearer picture. I doubt any of them are clueless about other construction techniques but for personal and/or business reasons, they have not made the switch.

It’s incomplete because it’s in a surf magazine. Not one of the mullet wrappers is worth reading if you want to get any type of broad perspective. It will pretty much always be about their own pet projects, those that suck up to the editors or help pay their bills. S.J. is one of the better ones, but thats still not saying much.

I enjoy swaylocks for the variety in opinion.

I have enjoyed some epoxy handshaped boards and I love properly shaped poly boards. What does it really matter. None of it is the holy grail and it all works. One day, government regulation will force a choice and you will be able to thank folks like surfrider and other lobby groups for that.

.02

51

I’d like to ask a question about the Chinese invasion. Are these actual Chinese companies that are on their own making and marketing these boards? Or are they american/australian owned companies that have asked the Chinese to make boards for them? If it’s the latter, then I think we should stop talking like the big bad Chinese are out to conquer the us/australia surf industry and start stressing that it is the big bad greedy american/australian is out to do it to his own industry.

I know around here there are several local shapers who have come out with a line of epoxy sandwhich surftech style boards that they have made in asia somewhere. Bob Miller has a line called Cobalt for example. He continues to shape poly boards as well. He may use epoxy resin on hand shaped boards too. The cobalt are sold in surfshops though, not costco and the like. But this is a case of an american shaper offshoring production on a line of boards. I’m sure he makes more money off the sale of one of these than a sale of one of his hand shaped poly boards. But he keeps doing those too and people keep buying them along side the pop-outs in the same surf shop.

52

ok i couldnt help myself …

apologies as well , a few comments i made could have been offensive to …

but the one about some of the crew in that interview being clueless about new materials and techniques stands …

as far as the polyester /epoxy debate …

heres my slant …

all the crew who advocate epoxy are ex poly users …

but the crew who advocate poly , either havent used epoxy or have used it once or twice , didnt like it and gave up …

most try to use epoxy as if they were using poly , using the same polyester application techiques …

also lobster ive said in previous posts , that urethane / polyester construction is still valid if you make them within the range and limits of the materials …

the superlight wafers with 1 layer of 4 top and bottom just lacks common sense …

once you push a board down to this level chasing high performance , your just wasting your time …

its in this area that composite construction has its greatest advantages …

i want to make the distinction between a urethane board built well , with a sensible glass job and sealed with a gloss , in comparison to disposable light foam , 1 layer each side and no finish coat , or unsealed automotive finish …

if you make a poly solid , youve still got a good product …

that being said , if you used epoxy and made it the same weight , it would be bullet proof …

also a comment about why hasnt it taken off yet ???

if you can build a product and people are happy to buy it , then why make it better ???up till now the industry has had no reason to improve the status quo …

if a better product gets put in the market —

then you have a few choices …

1 either make a product as good or better , or …

2 bag the hell out of it and make sure everyone who has one feels uncomfortable , tell all your mates they cause cancer if they try to build one , just generally run it down to try and justify why its not worth pursuing , make every kid who comes in for repair feel like a total loser for owning one , this one never ends …

3 go buy a lawn mower …

heres one of those classic paradoxs …

100 people , 99 say one thing , 1 says another …

the 99 must be right ?..

but some of the 99 have a closer look at what the 1 says , just to see if he is telling the truth …

now there is 5 saying one thing and 95 another …

but the 95 still must be right as they are the majority ?..

who out of the 100 actually took the time to look closer and inform themselves ???

so we have the informed minority and the uninformed majority …

now the 95 have 5 people making them feel stupid ,but the 95 still dont know what the details are , so they think the 5 look stupid …

what are the 95 going to do about it ? what are the 5 going to do ??..

remember , the 5 already fully understand the reasoning of the 95 , as they also previously reasoned that way to …

now what ??

regards

BERT

53

Yes Apologies everywhere indeed if anything I said was insulting…

Something about this ongoing argument just seems so trivial to me in comparison to things like seeing your witnessing entire culture, your entire inheritence wiped out by western greed. But like I said earlier education has got to be the key to all of our futures…

Just some frightening pricing notes:

Here’s a snapshot of Hawaii:

A pretty common and popular Surftech the first designed for the technology I hear…

mfg. TAKAYAMA SURFTECH

model IN THE PINK 7699 PINK BLU YELL

price $935

Meanwhile these are flying off the shelf… Not even shaped by the guy…

mfg. JOEL TUDOR

model SOLD

price $1250

Option?.. These babies are about a $100-$150 more here and no one’s buying them…

triditional dimensions $735.00

length nose width tail thickness price

9’0" 16 9/16" 21 9/16" 13 11/16" 2 15/16"

here’s the spooky part and something I hadn’t expected seeing…

While shopping downtown at Borders last week to pickup some DVDs to share on the plight of us Hawaiians I somehow got sucked into a Hawaiian island Creations shop across the street… You know how that goes for us addicts right Ben(chip)!

Anyway as expected most of the bpard were either chinese(Island Creations) or surftechs but to my shock in the back I saw two brand new unbranded EPOXY longboards both 10’6"x23.5"x3.25" for get this… $450.00. Yup they were cheaper than the 6’3" poly Arakawa’s in the rack cheaper than machined “CDR” 6’3’s in the racks. One of the boards was on hold for Jamie Ballenger(www.chunsreef.net) for those of you who know him which is unusual since he pretty much can get a board from shaper on the island.

Why was this spooky?

Well like curren famous unbranded yellow 7’2"… If my chinese ancestors can start bringing in relatively good looking epoxies in for $350-$450 and have them sold at a large retailer like HIC, then Randy may have something to think about. $350 for an epoxy 9’0" imaged from some brand name shape is going to up the stakes quite a bit no matter what people say regarding “custom” shapes… Like you guys said it all comes down to price for most of the market… Imagine if these turned up in Costco nationwide…

Anyway looks like another mutation to ever increasing competitive mass market space…

Things are changing fast and the price of oil keeps going up…

54

Please keep in mind that a AU $1000 board is $768.10 US.

Many of these “Thousand dollar board” arguments are totally meaningless when the detail of currency exchange is added.

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency?u

Edit: That wasn’t for you, Oneula. Your Island pricing is undoubtedly correct. I was talking about the shots at Bert’s boards & website.

55
Quote:
Bob Miller has a line called Cobalt for example. He continues to shape poly boards as well. He may use epoxy resin on hand shaped boards too. The cobalt are sold in surfshops though, not costco and the like. But this is a case of an american shaper offshoring production on a line of boards. I'm sure he makes more money off the sale of one of these than a sale of one of his hand shaped poly boards. But he keeps doing those too and people keep buying them along side the pop-outs in the same surf shop.

Bob Miller was part of Boardworks - the offshoring agent in the sandwich construction.

He used to make custom sandwich sailboards in Burlingame. The custom sandwich sailboard industry, actually the sailboard industry, took a HUGE hit from kite-boards. The driving factor was mostly price. Bob’s factory went under last fall. No one was ordering custom sandwich sailboards anymore.

Bob also made custom surfboards, of any construction, but he is the only one in these parts who will make a custom sandwich surfboard. Because of how they sell, he mostly shapes poly boards, and still has some Boardworks to sell…

He sells through Palm St in Santa Cruz now, the old glasser, George, works for Rasche at M10 doing Resin Research epoxy work. Bob’s brother John runs the ASD retail shop.

Bob sorta demonstrates my point. He made and makes boards using any technology you like (even solid wood). Every year he makes boards using all technologies. His bread and butter, from shaping, is poly boards. He is no novice to sandwich construction or epoxy - he was a sailboard industry leader in custom sandwich work. The sandwich surfboards never caught on at the prices he could offer.

I certainly didn’t intend to offend anyone…prices from around here for shortboards…

Solo shaper working for himself…$350-$450

Big name boards sold retail at big shops (clear and sanded)…$475-$550

Surftech…$600

Custom sandwich board…> $1000 US

56

slim …

its all of the above …

you have australian and american run asian production houses …

you have australian and american surfboard builders outsourcing to asian owned and run production houses …

you now have asian owned but fronted by aussies and american reps , direct to retailer operations …

and you have aussie and american reps , whove just splashed out and got containers of boards from asia to dump on the market …

basically those with the money are running to the feeding frenzy …

containers of finished boards for 250 aud , thats probably less than 200 U.S. a piece …

the margins are so big on the imports , that the importers are growing fat on profit , while watching there peers lose market share and shut up shop …

a board builder can buy a container direct with his labels on them …

you now have other asian factories churning out surftech replicas by the container with the labels of there customers choice …

you have retailer buying groups who have approached labels , with some sort of reputation , and asked to use there name on a container of boards to share between them …

the board builder gets more product out and gets a small cut on each for the brand , and the retailers get the label they want , for the deal of the century …

our industry over here in west oz has basically been wiped out …

these are the guys still in business …

1 still exists on the bones …

1 has a shaping machine …

1 has gone to thailand for both polyesters and epoxies , so still in business , but no australian production …

2 do all composite stuff …

and the other 140 have either gone backyard , stayed backyard , gone and got a real job mowing lawns (that is no joke) or moved over east …

weve had containers of imports dumped into the retail outlets , its been happening for 8 years or so , really moving in the last 4…

the only reason retailers continued to buy my boards wholesale was i had something different , but i would always freak when dropping boards off to see a whole shop full of 270 dollar polyester longboards retailing at 599 and walking out the door ,then having the retailer say to me , sorry dude i couldnt resist , i got em on consignment …that was the end of my wholesale polyester board making days …but i still had the epoxy composite to keep me going wholesale …

like i say , ive seen the tactics first hand …

you wanna hear a funny story …

about 2 years back was standing around with a few board builders at a comp …

a guy walks into the group , and in a real in ya face way says …

“you guys are stuffed , in a few years the surfboard industry wont exist here anymore …”

i didnt say anything …

everyone else told him to get stuffed and that he was full of it …

well he was right …

in areas where the surfboard industry has been concentrated , it has been harder for the imports to get a hold …

any manufacturer who has done clever marketing can still sell boards …

but all the little no names , backyarders , and small producers without advertizing , have to fight it out with cheap imports , sold by retailers with clever marketing …

i heard someone accuse greg of doom and gloom …

thats funny …

i spoke to a guy today who wanted a repair done , he didnt even know he was riding a polyester board made in thailand , because it had a local brand name on it …

he was shocked …

thats what i was getting at before …

ive stood in retail outlets watching 20 or 30 asian boards getting unpacked , then gone back a week later and seen 5 left on the racks , while i was delivering my next lot of epoxy boards , and while there looking at the lone polyester of mine still sitting there coz it was priced at 690 while the asian ones were sitting at 499 , mine wholesaling at 530 and the asians at 229 …

the retailer made 160 on mine and 270 on the asians …

which one do you think he promoted ???

you see my frustration . when your on ground level , dealing with the reality …

seeing what sells and what doesnt and why …

then you read an article from crew wrapped up in cotton wool , make comments about there being no benifit to emerging technology …

like i said denial and no clue …

was i being harsh ???

you be the judge …

regards

BERT

57

Lobster,

No worries.

I found this Sunova site. Are you talking USD, AUD or yen?

http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/4065574901/epricelist.html

BTW the average surferjoe I know in the Garden State is a rich kid with rich parents with expensive beachfront. One kid on my team back a few years ago was worth about $5M and he was only 15-16. Daddy was preez of a big electronics firm. Of course sometimes they pretend not to be. Till you see their house. And there are those who are not rich. I do not discriminate. If they surfed well I’d talk to them if they didn’t surf too well I’d make a suggestion. IF they repeatedly snake me I’d call them off.

The number is on the Loehr, not a Loehr type, but the real thing, is a hard number. Go to Surf Station in St. Augustine. Save another $40! I would. I’m familiar with costs all over the place. I don’t know where you are so I have no idea what you are comparing to. Also, some people pay more. Law of the jungle. It’s a beautiful thing. Except now that gas is going late 70’s. m

58

Mara,

Nice collection.

Are you conservation minded or a collector?

Me, I’m both in moderation. I rarely trade or sell a board. I have been known to give them away though to beginners. I generally ride them till they beg to retire. I love American craftsmanship. But I’d like to have more AU and HI boards. M

59

A friend of mine installed some ice melt heat tape on the soffit of a house that belongs to a woman who is Chinese and an importer. WE have quite a few of them around here. Well this job cost $20K and she asked my friend how he’d like to get paid, cash okay? She gave him a grocery bag full of cash.

She described her business this way. The way it works is this…China makes stuff. They have these stores that look like a department story. Laid out just like a department store. But they are wholesale exporters. YOU walk in see a display of lets just say compressors and you say I’d like to order a shipping container or 10 of them. Deliver them to Port Newark. That was ten years ago.

Same for surf gear. Except now everyone gets emails from the exporters hawking their wares. They start out innocent enough, Hi my name is Sue…we have epoxy surfboards, wetsuits boardshorts yadda yadda yadda. I wonder if RF has instituted tracking on his product? Black and Decker pulled out of Asia because they could not track product.

An American fin company ordered knock off fins by a famous shaper to be made in China and had them sold in Europe w/o the shaper’s knowledge. But he found out. I called him and got the story. Or one side of it. MY ear is still bleeding. Two years later.

All I can say is when someone steals one of my ideas it hurts like hell. And I am not alone. m

60

On the level that Bert is playing on, it’s more about marketing and distribution now. Shredding pro riders on Berts boards and in ads (marketing) + Berts boards at your local shop (distribution) = money in Berts pocket. I know a lot of guys that just can’t seem to get over Merricks… with the million other brands on the racks, why do you think everyone is riding that particular brand? Because the product is superior?

Well, since we were predicting the future earlier in this thread, let me bring up a couple points. First of all about those logo-less epoxy boards that oneula saw at his local shop. I bet Surftech fears those things more than anything, and if they don’t, then they probably should. What happens when foreign manufactures start mass producing the same thing that Surfech (or should I say Cobra) and dumping it on the US market? Do you think it is going to affect the custom board market? Hell no, it’s going to cause problems for Surftech. Popouts with a sandwich construction molded around them are still popouts. And if you want to compare that to the poly-u/polyester boards that are being made in foreign lands and being imported to the states… At least that type of construction has generations of board builders backing it up, and generations of surfers that have had millions of insane sessions in incredible waves to report back- yep! that board was incredible! That type of construction will never have the same problem as something that is veiwed as “new” (even though it’s been around for 20? years) and is already being mass produced in foreign lands by non-surfers. Thats the thing about surfers, that bombarded by marketing and hype, maybe they will eventually revolt and start building boards in there err… backyards… however the hell they want. Greg mentioned a bust in '69? What happened to the popout manufactures?

Greg also predicts some kind of bust by 2010 for poly/pu boards. Thats a pretty bold statement, because for that to happen, every surfer out there that currently loves their boards is going to have to convert to an alternative construction method. From my experience, surfers are the most stubborn group of people around, a lot of them are still riding a copy of the same 6’0" they rode at the peak of their surfing 10 years ago. Or still stuck on that Gorden and Smith they had in 1965… 1965! I mean come on now! You think these people are just going to wake up one day and switch?

Sandwich construction, epoxy, carbon fiber, nomex honeycomb, balsawood, polyester, polyurethane, etc… it’s all just different materials for making the same thing… the customers dictate the market. If the market changes over to epoxy resins, it will be a pretty slow change, and the manufactures will be able to keep up. The stuff has been on the market for 20? some odd years, and the industry has been pretty slow to adopt it…so I wouldn’t say that epoxy is revolutionary by any stretch of the imagination.

And please don’t tear into me for being a closed minded “poopie” boardbuilder- I’ve got a couple gallons of RR resin on hand, and a couple large blocks of EPS at the factory. Got a couple 4x8’s of corcell and about 10 lbs of balsa on hand too. No customers for that though. Love my EPS/Corcell/epoxy performance LB too! -Carl