Again, not wanting to hijack your thread Mattwho, But yesterday I got my new board in the water. best board I’ve had for ages, possibly a . 6 0 x 18 3/4 x 2 3/8 Fast as hell, possibly the fastest board I’ve ever had, but turns responsively and you can really push it through turns as well. General rocker is 5 at the nose and 2.2 at the tail, I was a bit worried before I took i testedit as there is not much curve in the final 5 inches of tail rocker, the reason being the added concave took out the rocker on that part of the board. Single concave, but with very slight double from infront of the fins. Im stoked with it in general.
1st off you have my permission
And I would love to see photos!
By the rocker noted
We are both thinking the same.
Concave(s) my God we have a gap
My first failures were deep concaves.
Used as wake boards mostly
And some were humanily put down.
but a few of the close jobs live in my shaping bay, not to haunt me.
But rather study and compare with what is going on
Now.
As I understand this, jezz!
For the riders to “bust airs”
I’m going with a transition from
Concave to flat
after the rear fins quad
and just before the center fin truster
Also add a tail flip
and soft rolled tail block
to aid in landing revert.
Thanks for the ride report!
Quad?
My end???
New board to test, yeah?
No surf and now oil spill.
Soon me hopes
Aloha
cool
nice tribute to Barney
Hey Mattwho, its nice to be welcome here. Two heads are better than one.
Well, just back from a 5 day surftrip, got some nice waves.
Really enabled me to feel out the board completely. The board holds well, goes great- even had one guy say that the board looks like it goes real fast, I have to admit I’m a bit rusty as regards to my surfing at the moment, and I did catch a rail a couple of times so it could have been me or the board, who knows, Im a backfooted surfer but perhaps the board needed to be the tinyest bit more front footed to drive on the front foot more from takeoff while taking the drop. However tiny details, If I had bought the board I’d be stoked with it.
It paddled in ok, but just ok, if im picking holes I can say that I’d prefer that it paddled in slightly better, I’d be keen to know some of the step up boards secrets that the pros use for example some of those guys are paddling into monsters on a 5 9 x 2 3/8 board, it would be nice to know how they design them for easy entry even if it could only be very mildly applied to some of my boards. Im guessing that it wont involve less rocker in the nose area.
Concaves - Im trying to get the most out of the outline of the board to make sure the concaves are working with the rail, which means making the concave shape follow the outline of the board. I came up with that theory by experimenting in the other direction.
I have to admit that I can’t get double concaves out of my head, I was raised on them by my local shaper, although I want to keep the double ‘hidden’ within the single. Next experiment will be to see if I can subtly shape the double concave by the stringer to also work with angle of the rail used while doing a turn. The thing is I don’t think I need a faster top speed, but of course its always going to be a good thing to be going faster than normal at slower speeds.
Your theory on boards for doing airs interests me a lot, It made me think that its a long time since I did an olly on a surfboard (I always tried to olly over a buoy line back in the day) it leads me to think about stickyness, good for turning but less release.
I always took it flat out the tail or a slight vee right off the end, but I want to try and keep a very slight concave off the tail if I can, possibly a very slight double could help with release without losing speed at slower speeds from flat or vee. It was always flat or slight vee just to play it safe.
I hear what you are saying about rolled under rails at the tail for reverse landings, but more roll in the rail more stickyness? Honest answer I don’t know, my rails at the tail are probably slightly more rolled under than most, the theory being that the board wont just let go and spin out while pushing hard through a turn. However thats theory I havnt replicated a board and gone to the two extremes to know for sure.
That oil spill sounds like a real local disaster, I hope it gets cleaned up asap and without too much damage to the wildlife, we are all responsible in a world addicted to oil.
Hoping to get that ride report as and when you are able.
Hopefully attached is a photo of the latest board in action a few days ago. Not the best quality as was taken long distance by a friend with just a phone camera.
I’ll get some pics sorted of the board for you at some point soon.
LTM
Ha the dreaded double post! LMAO
Tweaked you photo
Check the exit “roost”
"It paddled in ok, but just ok, if I’m picking holes I can say that I’d prefer that it paddled in slightly better, I’d be keen to know some of the step up boards secrets that the pros use for example some of those guys are paddling into monsters on a 5 9 x 2 3/8 board, it would be nice to know how they design them for easy entry even if it could only be very mildly applied to some of my boards. I’m guessing that it won’t involve fewer rockers in the nose area.
Concaves - I’m trying to get the most out of the outline of the board to make sure the concaves are working with the rail, which means making the concave shape follow the outline of the board. I came up with that theory by experimenting in the other direction."
LTM
If I reading this correctly.
We could save some time, Money and setbacks.
I am using US blanks 6-4 EA. With some nose and tail tweaks.
The EA is more “Island rocker”
And I have spent time and money going the other way.
I mean minimal rocker.
And worked my rocker back again.
I’ll say if you can surf, no problem.
Low rocker was not to be overlooked in my work.
It is a blend with these highly rockered boards
Close to what we are doing.
Why? Performance!
Look at CI, Rusty, etc. proprietary rockers.
What I am trying to say is, FLOW
Entry rocker (kind of a joke) but
Like I tell my Boy “be the molecule of water”
How the entry feeds the concave is critical
The boards have to Paddle well and not bog at drop in
From there we proceed.
Plenty of food for thought Mattwho.
As regards to low rocker, I went there as well, I made a really nice board 6 1 x 19 x 2 3/8 I would describe it as Continous rocker, That board was a really good friend to me and I surfed the hell out of it for a year without even temptation of surfing another board. If I remember correctly it was 4 1/2 inches at the nose and 1 3/4 at the tail. The thing is you always had to have in the back of your mind that it was a lower rocker, that meant slightly angled drops to avoid pearling on steep drops. Something that I was fine with as there were other clear benefits. But for the guy buying the board out of the rack he wouldn’t want something like that.
That latest one was shaped down from a 6 7 Bennett foam blank, not my usual choice, but a hole in the deck which I wasn’t sure if it would be too deep to sand out meant that that blank had my name on it. I learn alot from sometimes having to remove a lot of foam, and it can be good practice for rocker tweaking, and can make for a lighter board (at the expense of strength?) Maybe for my next board I’ll move the rocker apex forward a bit (hopefully I wont get any sways telling off for using the term apex haha, hopefully you will understand what I’m getting at), and it could help the board be that tinyest bit more front footed, and an increase in that tiny rocker 'kick’at the fins. It seems like we are thinking similar there. Hopefully that could help entry also, we shall see.
I’d like to just add a bit on what I said about the concave shape following the rail line, I still don’t completely understand the concept 100% but since I have been making a conscious effort to do this it really seems to have livened up responsivness and the boards seem to turn a lot better without any forcing. My guess is that this is probably only important after the widepoint towards the tail, as its the angle of those rails generally dictate how tight a board is designed to turn because this is where water is released. Up front towards the nose this could possibly have no benefit at all and possibly the negative of pushing water. The solution of this theory could be slightly pinched rails… But obviously if that could make it more difficult to get a good amount of rail in the water it could affect performance. Im pretty wary of the idea of slightly pinched rails anywhere on a shortboard. More thinking and testing required haha
Hopefully my ramblings make some sense to you, or even inspire some new design ideas, if you disagree with any concepts Im interested an open to what you have to say, after all its your territory here.
P. S I’ll edit out that double post when I next sit down at a computer, for some reason it wont let me do it on my Android device.
Still waiting for that ride report!
LTM
“As regards to low rocker, I went there as well, I made a really nice board 6 1 x 19 x 2 3/8 I would describe it as Continous rocker, That board was a really good friend to me and I surfed the hell out of it for a year without even temptation of surfing another board. If I remember correctly it was 4 1/2 inches at the nose and 1 3/4 at the tail. The thing is you always had to have in the back of your mind that it was a lower rocker, that meant slightly angled drops to avoid pearling on steep drops. Something that I was fine with as there were other clear benefits.”
Like I said “you have to be able to surf”
“4 1/2 inches at the nose and 1 3/4 at the tail”
Still a lot of rocker in my humble opinion.
Here is the journey, a board I had to fight hard to get back.
http://www.swaylocks.com/forums/5-10-bolt-action-build-ride-report-update
Keep at that idea and got some great advice from Mr. Griffin
A must in the quiver for mushy on up (leave the LB. home).
“But for the guy buying the board out of the rack he wouldn’t want something like that.”
I don’t think truer words have been said.
For me, this is the challenge.
To me the idea of more nose rocker and adding tail rocker
Breaks the law of conventional old school thinking…
Guy’s from my generation simply call me “mushers”
My advantage?
Observation, I watch the board,
Mine and especially others
The pro’s sit on the edge so the paddling is 2nd
The entry?
Edge control
And transitions et, all
Pro’s drive sales.
What a shame.
I really want people to be happy with my stuff and come back!
I really appreciate your input and my head is way ahead of my fingers.
Just need to break this down so this doesn’t come off as a rant, yeah?
Being “front footed” you can get away with a lot more (as to entry) than the buyer.
I mean that forward push changes things.
Had a parabolic MC style concave fail as a surfboard.
Failed as a wake board, until one rider pushed forward.
Oh my!
“6 7 Bennett foam blank”
Bennet to me = “Down under”
Same thing here
Making 5-8 -10 outta 6-4
As I need foam
And it gets tight.
If I only had a CNC machine
And all those files!
Nuff for now,
Oh yeah
“Still waiting for that ride report!”
Hoping for tomorrow with da report!
So. Cal
Got some right now
And comin’
“Andres” 1st of the year.
Hope you have a good South swell spot too!
As this could be a great, ah Winter.
Like to address these
Ah, later
“I’d like to just add a bit on what I said about the concave shape following the rail line”
“Maybe for my next board I’ll move the rocker apex forward a bit”
Looking forward to any input on my ramblings, It’s good to have someone to brainstorm some design ideas with. It’s thle fine details of that next level that has got me hooked.
Waiting with excitement with you for the ride report.
Boy got her wet
Not the best waves.
“when I got some good sections”
it was all there.
Good news,
At the end of our phone call
Boy sez needs more juice
I say NO SHIT.
Monday Andres should show up here
And I’m scoping the East Pacific.
Plenty off the ice and stacking up!
At best Andres 4+ here.
But more importantly
“sucking up warm water”
I thinking Boys quiver
is going to get a work out.
Gotta go…
Nice one Mattwho, by the sounds of it that board has good potential.
Just by curiosity, what kind of conditions are we talking about there? waist high mush or something like that? It must be nice to have a good test pilot, someone that will come back and tell you how it is with no BS
Maybe I’m overthinking things, I tend to do that a lot. But thinking of the main part of the rail where we want the surfboard to be turning on must be as you have mentioned the rocker at the side fin area. From this perspective a simple kick off the tail can’t give us the turning capasity that we are looking for- too little too late with not enough rail in the water. Nothing wrong with having a slight kick off the end of the tail to perhaps free things up a bit and add flick to manouvers, but we cant just rely on this as there wont be enough rail-line in the water to have something to push hard against while doing a turn. This is the theory behind me pushing the apex of tail rocker up tiny bit from where it is on my current board. Looks like I’m talking myself back to staging rocker, but perhaps more subtly and armed with more knowledge? Well thats certainly up for debate.
I still havn’t really worked out where next to go with the front half, possibly flatter over the front foot with more flip at the nose, but I’m convinced for this to work as needed, the back half or ‘business end’ of the board needs to be 100% correctly set up. Ever had a board that bogs or slaps while coming down from a critical turn? its almost like a nose dive but without the nose going under, its like a ‘rail dive’ as the flip of the nose stops the actual nose from pearling. Thats why I’m working from the business end of the board to the front rather than the other way around.
Just a random photo that I pulled off google to try and show what I’m talking about with respect to the ‘business area’ of a surfboard.
I’m probably making way too much background noise here, just mostly thinking aloud in a kind of brainstorm. so having said all that I’ll take a seat for a little while and watch with interest.
LTM
Wow
intense stuff
Perhaps we can “fast forward”
with a little help from a very cool and sucessful
Ah. local shaper,
whom has my respect.
BTW
sandin’ all day just thinking about the mainstream buyers
riding “pro boards” and blaming me
when they can’t surf them.
Still a little pissey.
Proctor is on it…
Nick Rozsa rocks
Listen and watch carefully.
Eh…
Hoping my appearance of thought
Has not darkened your vision of what is true.
Todd’s feed is good!
However not Gospel.
Rozsa has talent and like Kelley “could surf a coffee table”
(Side note here, Nick is in need of some positive energy).
Nuff!
Back to the work at hand.
“I’d like to just add a bit on what I said about the concave shape following the rail line”
Good God man!
This is SOLELY my opinion
And in speaking out I (remotely) run the risk of condescending voices here in.
Well they can, and I quote, Dead Milkmen, “blow it out your ass, dude”
Doing single concaves for me is easier as,
In doing dbl concaves most start with a single in a way.
Dropping the vee produced (or center, stringer etc.)
Below the rail line is a given, IMHO.
Flow, simple.
Singles you have to be careful with volume.
In my research I tend to think two rockers.
Primary, rail line
This is why we warped the rocker.
Secondary, flow and action.
Me?
I am done trying to fake in entry concave
Till well behind an absolutely flat entry rocker.
Next up “Apex”
And I think I know of what you speak.
Next swell
“Blanco”
Some amazing surfing on that board. Some of those nose picks are so fast I can’t even see what the board is doing, amazing skills.
Proctor surfboards, never ridden one, but they must be so widely respected for a good reason.
The pipsqueak looks tuned in 100%
Trying to catch the roker apex in the video, I think i can get some feeling on the rocker, fast forwarding on the right track I think.
The step down could also have the useful side affect of perhaps being able to keep more volume in the body of the board? I wont attempt something like that myself anytime soon due to extra time shaping sanding and glassing, but things can be applied using that principle.
The next Build will be interesting.
The thing is that you have to give the people what they want, if they want a board that looks like the latest pros board we have to give it to them, but use every trick we know to make it work for them.
Double post edit
Just a quick summary of things.
It looks like we both agree that continuous rocker works, but its a safe bet for boards but for 'normal shortboards ’ in ‘normal conditions’ it will probably not make a board magic unless its for someone that loves pretty low rocker? So we are moving into staged rocker or ‘subtly staged’
Concaves- keeping it relatively deep is a good thing, faster, and more bite and crisper feel while turning.
You are 100% for single with possible flat out the tail? As I want to try and keep a slight concave all the way through the tail I’m thinking slight double hidden within the single but just a very slight double remaining off the back fin. Both could work to stop sticayness and help release when needed?
Concaves following rail line, by this i mean following the outline of the board. Personally I can’t see how this can help from the widepoint forward-im still trying to think that area out. But for me widepoint towards tail, the concave outline should follow the shape of the board allowing board template, rail and concave to work together while turning. Water shouldn’t start getting squeezed out and released until after the side fins due to the concave deepening until this point allowing more space for the water. Im really interested if you disagree with any of this concept and why. Just really curious and I have an open mind to ideas on this.
Upfront, this is where I think I am coming into line with what you are thinking, Its obvious too much general curve in the rocker here will cause more difficult entry, but how flat is too flat upfront before the nose kick, this is somewhere where I don’t know where the limit will be, from what I read from you pretty much almost completely flat along the stringer at the chest is where your opinion on where that limit is? Seems to work for the pipsqueak well, and plenty more boards from the big manufacturers getting popular with that similar concept.
Can you elaborate more on your opinion on limits of entry concave?
Stoked to have found this thread and talk through some of these design theories with you .
LTM
P. S my Android double posted again, I’ll sort it out again when I get to a PC.
“Maybe for my next board I’ll move the rocker apex forward a bit”
I’m messin’ with my old rocker as well, " $summer time blues$" gonna eat up some time
Standing by for info!
LTM
You seem to be on target in your understanding performance oriented plus’
Here’s something I really hate to admit.
Not only does this old man pick trash of the beach.
I have acquired a number of “captured enemy fighters”
All buckled or snapped and carelessly left abandoned.
Deck patched recycled and grub screws!
Then the “reverse engineering”
The last find pro level single concave thruster
By a Big nameless board of the stars maker.
Just took me back to what I was doing some time ago.
And where we are, and are collaborating on.
And I absolutly know lower rocker is really where this should go.
Like you, (I think) that doesn’t sell!
And like you I am concentrating on a “mission impossible”
How to make a pro level looking board
That has reasonable odds of success.
Been “tuning” some test board turn backs
I have to fix my rails as I fool around with edges.
And mine won’t sell either.
So, it’s give the people what they want.
Back to the release and end of the concave.
I respect your thought here.
As in my trashed board info revels
Concaves are not big
And are from edge to edge
Most exit “somewhat flat”
And have flip, some a lot.
Next batch I’m planning on leaving some concave
And let the rocker roll into the flip.
As to what is working for me right now with the entry rocker etc.
Not what I consider “low” but compromise as the tip and tail have the “look”
My rocker for 5-10
Nose to tail @12” increments
4”, 1½”, ½” -0
Tail to nose @12” increments
1 ¼”, ½” 1/8” -0
With this set up I start concave as early as 18” behind nose.
If I recall you are running 5” nose, yeah?
So I don’t wanta do the math.
But I’ll tell you this, the next go at this
and again like you…
I’m messin’ with my old rocker.
And will be faced with figuring the entry a new.
For me…
I’ll through down my outline.
And spend some time just studying and feeling it.
Skin and set my rocker.
True it up absolutely flat.
Cut the outline.
And once again fondle and study.
And #1 entry and paddle.
Sum it up with this.
I look at the flow from all the angles
I’ll use the same template to work on the entry concave.
For me (now) 18” or so is the apex to flat
And fades into the business end which is rail to rail.
I will not start until I can see it.
And again FOR ME I become water
Moreover, become the molecule and become hyper sensitive any obstructions.
No boast, just how I think.
Oh and shit yeah
I buy the farm a lot
but I feel I making progess.
Nice Post Mattwho.
Keep the stoke on that beach trash clearing, Like you I have been doing some studying, I have had a busy week with boards coming in for repair. I hate repairing boards, I’d much rather be making them, but I think about the $ and I just can’t say no, its mostly boring stuff (for me anyway)- intermediate level surfboards 6’5’’ to 6’ 8’’ , but today i had something more interesting brought in- big brand and high performance. getting the brain going in overdrive once again.
Im with you Mattwho, I can’t stop thinking about rocker. My latest board although paddles in ok, but it doesn’t paddle in with a glide. We don’t want to be fighting with the wave at the moment of take-off, we need to be flowing with the wave, like this its easier to get a good solid first manouver in if we are calmly planted and relaxed on take-off. But as it seems we are in agreement, very flat rocker on performance shortboards probably won’t be a big seller in the racks.
I was thinking about your 5 10 rocker measurements, pretty flat, I’m racking my brain again to one of my very first boards, I think the rocker was something like that at the nose and tail, purely because I stripped down an old battered board someone gave me to use the foam, this meant I was very limited with space to add in more rocker. The board actually went pretty well considering there was so many other things wrong about it.
These days I’m aiming for 5 at the nose (maximum) and 2 1/4 at the tail. This is for a 6’ board. I consider this to be my ‘normal’. For shorter boards the numbers will be a bit less. I wont go into the numbers inbetween the nose and tail unless I think I hit a real breakthrough.
**For me (now) 18” or so is the apex to flat - **I was doing some thinking on this today, I think now we will be going in slightly different directions, which isn’t a bad thing. we can ‘do’’ and report back. I remembered reading somewhere (possibly on sways) that flatter boards feel bigger than what they really are, and higer rockered boards feel shorter than what they really are. This fits into my experience as well.
For me I’m thinking of the ‘flat spot’ a little further back than you, but still having the tail rocker apex just infront of the front fins. So just a shorter flatter area in the rocker for me. Remember that whilst paddling a shortboard its is not flat in the water, its angled. On longboards or boards with higher volume they will be almost flat in the water when paddling.
With a long extended ‘flat spot’ closer to the nose makes me worry about that slap effect or ‘raildive’ when coming back down a steep face after a manouver, plus too much flat could start catching rails up front??? I’m not trying to put you off doing it, if anything if some of our ideas are moving in different directions it could really help us both to be comparing the results.
Anyway Mattwho, its a pretty cool thought provoking thread you have got here.
Its pretty late here, so I better sign off for now. I’ll check back in soon.
LTM
Eh LTM,
Really trying not to miss too much of what you are saying.
It is certain that we have differences of opinions in rocker.
Honestly no problem…
Stoked to have like thinking mind, hands and can give valuable results.
We (and anyone else, eh, **positive **to this thread) need the cover a lot of ground.
I would really like to get your take on rail shape.
Here’s how I’m thinking…
My stuff surfs so. Cal as in Ventura, Santa Barbara
My concept as to concaves is
More “juice” more concave.
So, in trying to have a quiver for conditions
Groveler Mild
Semi Gun Med
Gun (3 stringer) Spicy.
Now…
I assumed you are in OZ.
Based on what I have read.
And as I envision your board.
So I’ll go out on a limb
Western OZ?
Eh!
Repairs?
Yeah same here, however…
Once established by doing quality repairs
Take your sweet time and do a killer job.
They will kick your door in!
Have some “Demo’s for the rippers.
Somethings you said shot up a flag!
“that flatter boards feel bigger than what they really are, and higher rockered boards feel shorter than what they really are.”
MHO
It’s compromise Video Gemini proof. The buyers are blind!
Second
“With a long extended ‘flat spot’ closer to the nose makes me worry about that slap effect or ‘raildive’ when coming back down a steep face after a manouver, plus too much flat could start catching rails up front??? “
Unfortunately the feedback on the higher energy boards is slim but positive.
Or Winter was sorry.
The only problem we have had as to the “extended ‘flat spot’ closer to the nose”.
I am aware this is not exclusive to what I or we are doing.
My experience a drop on a weaker flat bottom wave that spot (being amped by rider)
Flex’s changing or thereby causing BOG and throwing the rider forward not helping things.
The last series or quiver for Boy I added to my laps in that area.
And with “El Diablo” added some aramid fiber.
The results are much better.
Get back with the rail shape thoughts.
PM if you like.
Hey Mattwho, nice video. That guy has such a relaxed style while still throwing down some big turns and hacks.
I think that I have probably been overthinking the rocker 'flat spot ’ a bit. The important thing is that its actually there, and flat along the stringer rocker. For how long is a tweak, and, for me Im planning on keeping this fairly short. Im looking for a bit of glide-in rather than a full on wave catching machine. The main question is how far up from the tail to start it, from eyeing up as many boards as possible from big name websites etc it looks like it should be just before the middle where it starts, then its the case of how far up you want to take it. Most grovellers are short, so that is going to help things ‘fit in the wave’ upfront. I was looking at the dims for the pipsqueak, I think I recall them being pretty short compared tpo a regular shortboard 4 inches shorter. Should help the flatness ‘fit’
Almost finished the last 'batch’of repairs, it really throws my rhythm out, well its low season, and I still have work so I shouldn’t be grumbling.
Rails- I’m not doing anything special here, I used to like hard rails with a slightly hard edge going 2/3 up the board (my personal preference) but now my rails I can just class as ‘normal’ looking back I might have been trying to compensate for lack of bite from a too mild concave, extra concave gives more bite, so we can go easier on the rails. These days rather than thinking of the rails as separate, I view them joining on to the concaves.
I stay pretty consistent shaping the bottom of the rails, its just a case of how far I dome them down from the deck as regards to how boxy or ‘cutty’ I make them for standard shortboards.
What about you, are you doing anything different with rails? I remember you saying that you have your own style?
Looking down the line what kind of dims are we looking at for your next build? Anymore thoughts on up front, concaves and how soft to take the rails. I have some thoughts on this, but at this stage is just theory, so I think I’ll leave that for another post.
LTM
Eh Bradda,
Thru together some pix of the concaves
groveler
Step up
Semi gun.
@ end of post.
I really can’t claim anything about “my rails”.
Other than this is nothing more than what somehow,
Started in my folk’s garage in 1970.
Older buddy falls by
We wind up cutting from stringer to the outline with a hand saw
Keeping enough foam for a ½” rail all way around.
Made four last in funky pix
Hurt like hell to paddle
But worked ah, unreal.
Then…
Gotta ride with Greg Liddle, (boards at cost)
And rode a “few” hulls.
Another buddy comes back from the Islands
With a downrailer and glorious stories
I’m going to Hawaii!
Took about 4 boards to get it right.
Some of the only guns Liddle made.
I went,
didn’t embarrass myself, 2 bad…
Bottom-line the evolution the rail of which I hail
Is what is known as “D” HIC gun
Just sharper @outline.
Hard to explain without coming off with ego.
I just really find this funny and lifting,
that some obscure backyard work would prove out.
Dick Brewer said as much about the ideal rail.
BTW a few old-timers still call me the “razorblade kid”
Pix 2 the compromise.
All about bite and release, yeah?
All I have ever learned is
Don’t be afraid to color outside the lines!
Many Blessings
