Underground revival Update

Thanks for the ‘heads up’ Huck.    Nice to know that I’m not the only person doing this kind of stuff while testing. Perhaps Im not losing the plot after all.

Mattwho,  when you say that you can feel the faults in the board that didn’t work so well, what faults are do you mean?     I learn much more from mistakes than anything else, so would be interesting  if you could elaborate on the problem areas. Let me know how the adaptions go. Which one of the boards in the photos is the board you want to do the adaptions?

I am still pondering rocker, the test board, although good, still room for improvement, especially in rocker I think. More testing today, but difficult conditions, super choppy and rippy, you know those light onshore conditions that just completely chop up everything, when the wind is stronger onshore it can often be easier to find some clean faces and sections amongst the chops. But still had some decent ones with the ‘extended double concave’ but I also kooked out on a fair few waves.

   I have attached a photo of a ‘blast from the past’  the board long gone, only the photos and memories remain, going back almost 9 years to when the board was made, and my 3rd surfboard that I had ever made.  A little rough around the edges… BUT the board wen’t insane-   I wouldn’t say hyper performance or anything, but it handled anything that was thrown at it from bigger hollow conditions to small fat slow conditions- hacks ,snaps, gouges- it just did it all so naturally. Just luck in the build rather than skill.   For the record it was fairly shallow single to double concave with slight vee off the end of the tail. It was a bit of an ugly duckling.

I am convinced that the secret was in the rocker, the photo is all I have, trying to compare it to other things out there, I am not comparing myself to Proctor, but to me the rocker on that board looks very similar to the monsta v 1.3 rocker that you can see on the webpage, feel free to tell me if you think I am talking out of my rear end.     Back to the future, a new starting point from the past perhaps. 

  Im convinced the secret to rockers is the point where it starts to accelerate at the tail end, then its just a question of tweaking it slightly depending on the board or conditions.  The test board I may have started the tail rocker too early and too abruptly, and doing so left a lack of curve closer to end of the tail.  Again im nit-picking, because the board works, but to take things to the next level I need to be considering all this stuff.

My opinion, and only my feeling on how deep is too deep for concaves (because I havn’t tested it to any extreme, so i don’t know for sure) is that the webber in the photo is far too deep- i am GUESSING that rail to rail transitions could be made difficult especially while turning off the top???  the charcoal board is probably too deep for me too, its not that I am saying that it can’t work, its just potentially more to go wrong IMO. btw how does that board go? Also deep singles have potential problems in choppy conditions???

More Snooping, but I figure I’m not really competition for the big guys.

If you get time, take a look at the JS Industries website, choose a board, and click on concaves, they run a straight edge down the boards in a short video clip.    I am aiming for these kind of depths.

 

LTM 

 

 

 

 

Problem is with the red one.

Concave too far into the entry rocker.

Guess I just blindly jumped into it back then.

And now I know better, the feel is the bog in transition as well.

Gonna sand on it once the “Old Lady” lightens up with the Honey do’s!

The “grey” ( what I call it) worked well “Boy” still has it.

Just needs alot of wave energy.

hence the shallower concave(s) for grovelers

Note: still deep with the step up’s and guns.

Video.

Step up in (not recommened)

smaller surf...

 

Thanks for showing and telling on the red board. If something feels ‘off’ with one of my boards it drives me crazy, and it becomes an obsession to find out the reason.

What you say is the problem with the red board I can agree with that, it makes sense, I cant see much concave further back, and as I understand the general consensus from the pro board builders is that the deepest part of the concave should be a little infront of the front fins, so on that board trouble with water flow through the board? That also makes sense why the wakeboarders had success with putting their weight forward.

Comforting to know that the grey board goes well, I can push on with my moderate concaves without too many jitters of going too deep, although I’m planning on sticking with my single to double concaves as standard.

Stuck with the 'bodge job’wax double concave, infact I don’t want to take it off, the stickers were falling off so now I just have a wax ridge along the stringer, so I’m feeling a little embarrassed walking down the beach with it. Tried a couple of wax wings, but it just felt a bit weird without any advantages so they were taken off after the first couple of waves.

Perhaps I will add a more professional resin ridge to make the double concave permenant, It may not add too much weight as a surprisingly small amount of wax was used for the test.

By the way, the step up looks like it goes pretty good in the video, what kind of rocker numbers are you using there?

  Also with the gopro footage, is it mounted on a helmet? Or head strap?    The reason being that I ordered a gopro a little while ago so I’m keen to hear mounting tips.   From experience using a friends gopro they dont seem to do such a good job filming while surfing backhand. I’m backhand most of the time around here, so I’ll have to try and figure something out.

 

LTM

Mouth mount!!!

 pole and the nose mounts work.

Video pole…

 

I have to look up the rocker on Little Sis’

Here’s some poop on it…

see post #7 this tread.

Pretty good quality vids.

Last pic, curious, did he make it? Looks well positioned for a good landing.

HA!

Yeah he made it!

Dig this one.

And it started the quest

Ah, for a little “safety” nose rocker!

Sorry just slamed with work.

I’ll get out an update in detail

later.

Gonna take a break!

July 4th! Our day!

America Our country.

Be safe, be prepared and enjoy

I support the sneaky boots 

in the danger zone…

the O’hanna…

 

 

Ahoy,

Thanks LTM for the JS stuff!

Here’s my pick.

Very nice quad set up too!

Took the day off (3rd)

And cleared out all the crap in my head.

The red board is a loss.

Gonna give it to my grandson Deegan.

He can practice on the rug!

The good?

A revelation of sorts

The Novel

A decade ago I started making boards for the 3rd and last time

Started with the LB classics.

So when my mind wavered to innovation in these times.

Still into LB’s, noticed Skip Frye’s board.

Monkey see monkey do!

The development was good and really energized me.

Like I have said…

Just couldn’t help but notice the tow boards speed.

Yeah the Crook Shed.

Again, monkey see.

OPS!

Not so easy!

Really reached out via web

“Others test riders”

Joined Sway’s as Oldphart Shaper

And some learned no one gave a shit

To my rants and builds.

 

Eh what the hell?

Really nobody out there

So, a morph to Mattwho.

And short boards

I love R&D.

As with anyone of like mind, it is cash and time.

Yeah, shelled it out as best I could.

But I feel I got the most out of the investment.

Back to NOW…

Huck? I think you’re on board with LTM and me.

Up to Mann right now.

Hey I’d love to see Bert Burger in “DA hot seat”

I really appreciate having LTM on board!

And respect his efforts!

BTW,  LTM, my personnel 10-6  has double concaves!

Check the “contender” build  7-0 plenty of float.

Single concave, quad. One hell of a ride.

Got some $$$ for blanks, ordering a few.

Stoked!!!

Underground Revival?

Keep the good vibes alive…

Thanks for info, feedback and  tryin’ to understand my shitty rants!





You almost never see single concaves on a single fin, or a longboard (not talking about noserider concaves).  Leading me to suspect concaves work better on multi fin boards, and shortboards.  Leading me to suspect that smaller boards with less planing surface and rail fins benefit from lift more than larger boards and boards with no rail fins.  Mattwho makes longboards with double concaves, so how does that factor in?  Do your double concave longboards project down the line better?  Just curious.  What are the performance trade offs, in your opinion.

I also suspect concaves add directional stability, help focus wave energy for forward movement, but lose a little of that energy in the process, i.e. they add projection but need a bit more speed / juice, not so effective in gutless waves.

Not sure what any of that means, or if its accurate, just some random thoughts.

Thanks Mattwho, It’s good to be here.

  And Huck, nice post. It got me thinking and researching. I think I agree with everything you wrote there.

I am thinking doubles vs singles, very much rider/shaper preference.   Plenty of boards on each sides of the fence, but generally the wider you go, the more boards you will find with double concave.

I don’t want to sound like I’m preaching, Just trying to put my thoughts of info that i have digested into something that makes sense, differences of opinion, please say.

After more thinking, I am believing that Single concave = more flow through turns, and the board works better if its always kept on rail (?).  Disadvantages can bog slightly or catch at low speeds as less lift?   Also stickyness in certain conditions ( I imagine Longboards would have more of a difficult time top turning without bogging with a single concave?)  Most flat out the tail (or in some cases slight vee?) for release

Double concaves (I think from my experience) are going to push back at the rider more especially when the board is more flat in the water, especially more useful on smaller waves where speed has to be generated by lateral pumping.  Also can initiate a turn faster as more to push against?     I am very heavy footed, and I like to feel boards push back at me- so probably thats why I’m still liking the double’s.  Disadvantages - Less Top end speed, too much lift in certain situations?(still yet to decide on this), and less continous smooth flow feeling through turns. Most flat or slight vee out tail.

Of course mixing  the best of both worlds with a slight double ‘hidden’ in the single which is what many top shapers are doing, and have been doing for decades.   So no right or wrong here, just trying to somehow organise the differences.

Well, I am also hoping for some insight from Mr Mann in the GD forum.

Back to the workshop tomorrow after 2 weeks off, hopefully will get things kick started with some exciting new projects.   Used the time off to get better organized. 

  

Mattwho  -  What have you got planned for those blanks that you are picking up?

Interested and following as always.

LTM

 

 

 

 

 

 3rd shot at this.

Really started with the classic LB.

All even the trailer jobs, 50/50 conventional,  just as I remembered.

Once I saw Mr. Fyre’s board (photo 1)

So,

just like the “voice” in my head

Sez!

Break out!

Been on a mission since 08.

LIT!

I need to shut up and listen!

Thank you Brother you are a wealth of information!

Mahalo Nui!!!

Huck!

Got an 8-8 Dbl concave Quad you can have a go at! (photo 2)

Eh thanks for asking LIT,

Ah the new stuff, yeah?

A coupl’a “contenders” 7-0 single concave quads.

And for shits and giggles a few GG Felix knock offs,

Totally flat, tucked edge all the way ‘round.

Really thinkin’ some killer fins and glue ups as the “hook”

Purely speculation or $$$$.

Over.


Hi Mattwho,

Interested with the longboards,

Although I really don’t have any experience in that department.

I have never shaped a longboard,   I expect that I dont have enough patience to shape one, I get board too easily- If one of my shortboards takes more than a couple of days from start to finish I start getting  fed up, 

   BUT…    I did shape a mini longboard a couple of months ago, 6’ 6’’ for a beginner, nothing fancy- he said he just wanted to point and shoot, so I just put a convex belly on the bottom- Job Done.    I don’t think he surfed it, as far as I know he just likes it hanging on his wall. haha

 However it turned out nice, and I think this kind of board could be popular- with a performance twist.

So I’m thinking rolled entry, to double concave to vee off the back, with the tinyest bit of rocker flip at the tail. It’s going to have to work with ‘normal’ FCS thruster fins, 6’ 6’’ should not be too extreme for thruster I hope??? Can always throw in 5 quad or 5 fin option as well. 

However, I’m the first person to admit that i know f*** all about Longboards

I might go a take a look at what design features performance SUP’s are using, some of those things seem to be getting surfed in the pocket these days (almost), and turn on a dime.  

 

 

LTM

Todays project. 5 10 x 19 5/8 x 2 3/8 4 1/4 nose rocker 2 1/8 tail rocker Moderate single to double with slight vee out tail My phone takes rubbish photos. Shaped down from a 6 4 blank - uff

You can’t really see the concaves in the photo, but they are definately there

LTM,

No worries

Any picture’ll do

My power of observation gets me in trouble all the time!

With Mama!

Yeah, Hope mine (observations) help and not hurt.

Your side lights are a little high, but still effective, just maybe a few inches above the board’s surface on the rack.

“Today’s project. 5 10 x 19 5/8 x 2 3/8 4 1/4 nose rocker 2 1/8 tail rocker Moderate single to double with slight vee out tail My phone takes rubbish photos. Shaped down from a 6 4 blank”

Hope you don’t, 

mind but the truth is, I won’t be working on anything new till after summer  as (2 ha) riders have full quivers, just need SURF!

Coupla’ things that strike home with me.

5-10 outta a 6-4?

Shit do it all the time

The blanks I like are CNC stuff @ length.

I’m comfortable with some added foam

Always try to project the required rocker using a larger blank.

Ah, which I’m sure you do.

                All due respect.

                4 1/4 nose rocker 2 1/8 tail

                Eh just like

5 10 x 19 5/8 x 2 3/8

Too simple and cloudy for my old ass.

Love your work

“Some much from so few”

That is the motto I cling to

It’s a lot more important for the financially challenged shaper NOT to waste anything.

Your outline is sweet and I am very interested in the exit Vee.

My 2 cents?

My tools

#1. 2x4x 30” one side 40 other 60

Good for nose to tail blends and great for reaching across concaves for rail true ups.

#2.  Small hand planes.

                1” Stanley damn sharp

                2” Stanley damn sharp

                Wilkro razor plane.

All will work on the foam.

Ah, for those bumps in the light.

Finish?

Damn sharp spoke shave

220 soft pad.

Eh, Huck you listening?

IMHO, you are gifted.

And I really would love to see

What you can do with concaves…

A new challenge and some sidelights?

We need to talk…

LTM….

Post up some progress shots!

Sherlock and over

Hope me no lose face!

But!

It might seem we have some advice from one brave Mr. D. Mann!

Aloha Nui Kana.

Provocative, no?

“Concaves are the easiest, most obvious way to make boards go faster by increasing the flow of water through the fins.  I think the wider the board the more benefit a double barrel (from around the mid point) adds to this flow of water.  I think with the really wide grovel boards the really deep double barrel and quad combo almost acts to divide the board in half lengthwise and gives those boards the feeling that they are more narrow than they are.  I also think it’s best to leave the double barrel concave in the concave.  In other words, I think it slows the board down when you split the double barrel with ‘v’.”

IMHO

I think that we have been doing for far too long, 

is working on something that has peaked in its refinement.

And it is a kin to a whipping a dead horse.

LTM,

I know the statement

“I think it slows the board down when you split the double barrel with ‘v’."

Stings!

Rejoice in this!

I do not take it

As if the reference is addressing true Vee out the tail.

But rather the “v” ridge between the dbl concaves.

Perhaps we should go over the shaping of these “critters”

My style,

The doubles start just that way and I’ll tune the hump.

Or the third rocker and blend my concaves

Which are deepest under rider’s feet.

As I understand other shapers start with a single concave and roll the doubles in.

Kinda senseless to me.

I started what “we” called double barreled concaves single fin era, prior to the twin’s

Mostly Wilderness and CI knockoff’s even chines.

And having shaped those

my style of attack has been established.

True singles have been a long road and a challenge to my old ass!

Over.

Eh, judging from my humble surf forecast

Ya gotta be Surf’n  y’r ass off…

Much Aloha…

Back again,

3 projects on the go at the moment.

Board 1) The board previously shown in the photo. Sprayed, glassed and hotcoated, tomorrow fin installation then sanding, probably too early (curing time) to test ride this weekend, but if conditions are right for it, I might just surf it anyway.

The vee out the tail is very slight, almost looks flat, but it does have a slight vee. I have another theory on why vee is used off the back of the rear fin (I know, I have a lot of theories haha). The common term is to ‘help the board go rail to rail’. I think it may have the effect of making the  very end of the tail of the board the tiniest bit ‘slippery’ and this helps the board change direction better especially between turns- almost like temporarily moving the pivot point forward on a micro level, but while on rail you get the usual bite of the rail.  So for tail slides etc it provides more control, rather than the board just letting go all at once (I am talking on a micro level here).

2 )A scaled up version of board 1 (6’4’') - Just started, outline done, will wait untill after testing board 1 before I attack the contours-  same rocker as board 1 but just scaled up a bit.

  1. A 6 6 mini longboard  - half shaped. (started getting bored, so thats why I started on board 2)

 

Mattwho, Back to what you were saying about shaping in the doubles, I have always done single first, then added the doubles, you got me thinking perhaps to do it the other way around.  I’ll have a think about that, as long as taking down the stringer afterwards won’t cause irregularities in the stringer rocker it does seem more logical to do it that way.

 

More inspiration from Diverse, check it out, and how well it gets surfed backhand. Plus its a thruster!   Sometimes it can be like looking for a needle in a haystack trying to find clips of backhand surfing on wide or unorthadox boards.  My experience is that if a board goes well backhand it will almost certainly go well forehand- But  boards that go well forehand wont always go well backhand - (think mini simmons style)

 

.http://www.diversesurf.com.au/board-models-2/whats-hot-now/fx-felix-performance/

 

Mr Mann makes sense to me.

IMO, Speed isnt everything, yes, we need to get around sections and we want a board thats goes fast…but sometimes its good to be able to shave a bit of speed off while turning. More control over destination especially in tight situations, and after doing a topturn can help with those extra ‘tweaks’ after  a turn like pushing the fins free.   But its completely about rider preference- there isn’t any right way or wrong way to surf, as long as you are enjoying it. A little vee at the tail souldn’t slow things down too much.

Probably best to reserve full length vee for only the widest of summer boards, or retro style? For me narrower boards= less double concave, wider boards more double concave, but as I mentioned before, there are tons of top boards out there just sticking with the single concave- So nothing wrong with that either.

  Feedback from the new boards of the hotshot (not my boards) one pretty deep double concave, one pretty deep single concave. Loves both of them. He couldn’t be pressed into picking a favorite.

Yes, the sidelights!     I think my back sometimes tells me my stands are a little low rather than the sidelights too high.  To be honest I shape with my ceiling light on as well as I can generally see everything better and i don’t lose my tools as often! I just use only the sidelights at the end of shaping a board to pick out little bumps and scratches before lamination.

Favorite tool, unconventional. A flexible hand handle sander- never seen anyone else use one, but it works really good, plus i don’t have my hands touching the sandpaper all day. 

Check this vid out- Made me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1i6WmLVlfE

 

Fins plugs in

Aloha LTM!

“Mattwho, Back to what you were saying about shaping in the doubles, I have always done single first, then added the doubles, you got me thinking perhaps to do it the other way around.  I’ll have a think about that, as long as taking down the stringer afterwards won’t cause irregularities in the stringer rocker it does seem more logical to do it that way.”

No problem with that and you are lucky!

I mean I have been trapped by my old school ways back then and doing a number of LB dbls, so I had a few difficulties goin’ single.

Perhaps on next Dbl I’ll give it a go.

Mr. Mann

Dooley noted.

“Check this vid out- Made me laugh.”

Dug the chubby dude @ “Tropics”!

Yeah any of that stuff with the channel Islands in the background.

Is sacred home turf!

And I still resent cameras on the beach promoting or inviting more soulless folk into a hostile line up of those of whom have paid their dues.

Sorry my localism is showing!’

Ha in my day!

A camera on our beach was,

Well not well accepted….Nuff

 

“My experience is that if a board goes well backhand it will almost certainly go well forehand- But  boards that go well forehand won’t always go well backhand.”

That’s what I like about you.

You come off a one good rider that can explain an issue.

“Boy” is goofy foot and is on his backhand a lot.

Jezz!!! It has been backside Whoa! , front side, ah NO.

Just when back to making sure of my rails and not hurrying.

Also

“IMO, Speed isn’t everything, yes, we need to get around sections and we want a board that goes fast…but sometimes it’s good to be able to shave a bit of speed off while turning. More control over destination especially in tight situations, and after doing a top turn can help with those extra ‘tweaks’ after a turn like pushing the fins free.   But it’s completely about rider preference- there isn’t any right way or wrong way to surf, as long as you are enjoying it. A little vee at the tail shouldn’t slow things down too much.”

Spoken well!

Hey I believe it!

As I have had to stall or shed speed before toughing it on edge.

 

Really looked at the “Diverse” board.

Appears to be an Incide blank and a strange little Griffin swoop eh, even the name.

IMHO looked stiff and hung up too much , eh, waves in video, where very crappy.

Like this still photo, just a little more umph!

I find the funny as you asked about the “next batch”

Going for #4 and a Mini Sim “Killer”

“Boy” brought Fang #3

In for repair

Wicked little thing…

“Boy “got some on it yesterday.

Going over his ride report cafefully,

as he rode it quad (for once).

He said after pumping and haul’n ass,

The fins wandered or got squirrely.

And he had to stall a bit.

Bugged me!

I look at his fin set up

4 asymmetrical fins.

Fin cavitation yeah?

Could’a slapped ‘em

He knows better!

So here is a study

“Fang”

5’-8”

3 boards

1st guess

2nd wide

3rd bingo.

Gonna have to dig up the template anyway.

Let me know if interested.

Really enjoy your input and views!

Stay busy, slow down and enjoy the ride….







Nice One Mattwho,

Your little fang machine looks and sounds like it does the business, thats one very straight outline, although kicking in at the fins to keep it loose.   I need something short and wide to add to my designs, still working on that idea- too many ideas on that and I just cant decide what do do.   Are you doing anything different on fin positioning for your short wide designs?

Your Fang boards are generally flat bottom? (no concaves)

Those types of boards is where I really lack experience.

Cut lap with the vector net- good job, patience required there I expect, I presume (and hope) its easier to cut once its been cured in?     My first lam with some vector net- should have laminated the deck side first i think, tagging the v net in place first, and laminating the bottom first as usual added a few extra grams, and I don’t think will work as a production method. Live and learn.

Nice photos.