Surprised this has not been posted here yet:
http://www.stabmag.com/elliot/wave-garden
really?
ok, how does your design change for freshwater wave pool…
zzzzzzz
OK, I’ll bite.
I was the guy who wrote up the business plan and raised over $11 million to build the Ron Jon Surfpark in Orlando. I dedicated nearly a decade of my life to making it happen. It failed in the development stage because the computer-adjustable floor was a disaster and we had to rebuild it several times, draining much of our funds that were earmarked for completion of the full-sized pool and completing the project. We did manage to make some very high quality waves, both lefts and rights, in our “training pool”, which was about 40’ x 120’ and produced a waist-chest high very short ride.
As you might imagine, we learned MANY lessons about what works and what doesn’t in creating artificial waves. The biggest lesson, however, is that it’s not if you can make a wave, but WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU MAKE THE WAVE! The big trick is managing the reflections, currents, and other disruptions that occur immediately following the wave. It is quite easy to make a high quality wave. It is quite another task to make 2,3, or 4+ waves per minute, which is the throughput you need if you stand any chance of making a Surf Pool commercially viable.
So, even though Wave Garden has released some very short and cleverly edited videos, I am skeptical that their solution provides an effective solution to manage the currents/reflections/chop that occur when making waves in an enclosed space. Look at the videos, and it appears there is a substantial amount of whitewater, chop, etc. immediately following the wave. These will bounce around the pool and make the next wave a mess. Notice the wave in the video is produced when the basin of water is completely still. I am curious to see what wave #2, 3, 4, etc. will look like and how much time in between waves it takes to get a repeatable high-quality wave.
Nonetheless, I will reserve further judgement until I see additional footage, and regardless, I applaud these guys’ efforts.
Interesting stuff, Jamie. I’m fascinated by the developing work in wave pools, and have been dreaming about what they might be like.
I’d like to ask you 2 questions, since you seem to be closer to this situation than anyone else I’ll ever have a chance to ask:
Is it possible to make a wave pool that can reliably (operate 300+ days per year, 10+ hrs per day) produce 6 perfect, 6’-8’ waves (lets say just rights for now, and with a ride length of 100m) per minute?
If so, about how much $$ would it cost to build such a wave pool? Assume the real estate / permits / power / water / parking / zoning, etc, etc are already taken care of.
Etmo,
6 waves per minute is most likely too much. Not so much from a technical standpoint, but from an operational one. It would be very tricky to keep people out of each other’s way with a steady stream of waves in 10-second intervals. Managing currents at this interval would also be a major challenge, though we have gotten pretty close. More reasonable intervals that are both technically (wave quality) and operationally feasible are in the 3-wave per minute range. But even this requires a pretty specific dampening solution. One way to get 6 per minute is if you had 2 pools, side to side or back to back, running simultaneously. But of course that’s more space and more $$$.
As far as cost, let’s just say it’s $10MM+ as a very round number.
Not that you asked, but the problem with Slater’s ring solution is how large a piece of land it would be on (there are also serious technical question marks). This would require 10+ acres and a substantial mixed-use real estate development inside it to justify the cost of the land it require. We are talking major $100million+ investment to justify that kind of project.
So perhaps you are starting to see that the big challenge in surfing wave pools is not making the wave, but all of the other critical economic factors around it.
Jamie,
Thanks for the response. 10 million sounds so much more affordable than I had guessed. If you really could reliably generate 3 perfect, 100m, 6-8’ waves per minute for a total project cost of less than 25 million, then I can see the economic challenges, but maybe my assumptions are off. What are the holes in this thinking:
25 million cost ~ 775k per month to pay for the money at 7% – is that a reasonable rate for 25 million? Figure another 200,000 per month to pay for labor, insurance, maintenance, etc, etc?
Each surfing customer is assigned 8 waves per hour. Generating 3 waves per minute means I can carry ~ 22 customers per hour. Say 8 hours per day, 25 days per month means 4400 revenue-generating hours per month, so each hour costs each surfer 222 bucks? Is this anywhere near the numbers you guys were facing? If so, yikes. That’s going to be a tough sell.
Thanks also for the info about Slater’s ring solution. If it were built in some place where land is cheap, perhaps 10+ acres would be more feasible, and alleviate the pressure on the mixed-use requirement, although then I suppose you have the issue of being at a distance from your customer base. But still, 10+ acres?? That’s a friggin’ big ring. I didn’t realize the implementation required such scale.
VERY interesting insight.
does the ring form factor help mitigate the refraction issues you allude to or does it just have its own set of drawbacks?
This looks like the next generation on from those standing waves that use big and fast quantities of water shot over a wave shaped formwork.
I like the idea of making a more natural wave with real volume, I wonder why they cant alter the 'ring' idea and just make it a long pool of 100yds X 20 foot wide ? Sure the waves only going to be 20 seconds long but sensibly after that most people have fallen off anyway...
The ring idea makes sense to have multiple endless waves but the scale of the beast is slightly silly when it needs a block of land the size of Scotland to build it on.
Etmo,
Your assumptions are pretty far off. First of all, nobody is going to finance such a venture at 7%. WAY too risky. We are talking private equity/venture capital type returns needed for this risk. Unless it’s just window dressing for a $100+ million mixed-use real estate development (mall, casino, resort, etc.). But we all know how tough that type of financing has been to get over the last few years. Don’t want to give away too much of my research, but your biggest costs are labor and power.
You are right in that you have to build the business model up from “what would you be willing to pay” and see if it pencils from there. $222 would probably be a non-starter. Our proposed pricing for Orlando was in the $50-70 range per person for a two hour session, giving you about 15-20 waves during that period. Still pretty pricey but worth it for high quality waves. We did a ton of market research in Central Florida and felt we had ample demand had we actually pulled it off and opened. In our membership signup (no money required), we had over 6,000 people signed up.
Afoaf,
I haven’t seen the Ring model in person, but some of my colleagues have and they have serious concerns on how it would scale up to real size.
..........." no worries bro , I'll take this wave , and you can have the next one ">>>>
great insight on the post-wave water flow/backwash/riptide happening in an enclosed space. with similar equipment, why not ‘upgrade’ a wave-less beachfront or lakefront to make it surfable. would that make a more doable, more cost-effective project ?
You can see the second wave is messed up, and this from a thigh-high first wave.
With the ring, what happens if you fall? How do you get out of the pool? Do you get run over by the guy behind you? I don’t get it.
This shot is from the Wavepark website.......they say it's 8 ft
That’s a photoshop image …here’s my version.
Hey Billy ! that's only 4 ft !..............the wonders of photoshop,,,,,,,,,
I'm sure , deep down , their intentions are good ,apart from big dollar developments. I think it's still way off in the future , when they get some problems sorted. The concept would be good out in the desert somewhere. In any case I think it's a better alternative than foolin with things in the ocean. Would be a better alternative to another golf-course development anyway......
So why is it all of a sudden cool to publicly moot these wave park / garden ideas when the physical reality is still just a fantasy ?? Why promote a wavepark that needs 100 acres when its just not possible ? Dont geddit ????
howdy surffoils,
no locals to enforce localism hehe is that a good thing or what, hmm? " )
cheers,
From Ive seen Surfiols, they are being marketed as 'waterparks", with whitewater rafting rapids , cable-ski etc etc, not just wave riding places. I.ve seen an artical on an artificial wave in Malaysia that looks pretty good , so it is do-able.....and the one in Japan is pretty good too , with some good lookin head high waves...not my cup o tea , but in concept , maybe one day it will happen........as long as there is no global water shortage haha!