i am looking to put just a bit of vee in the tail of the board i am working on. probably just about 3/16ths or so. in the past ive put increasing depths marks on the rail and left the stringer a bit high until the end using a 10 inch sanding block. ive just never been happy with the results as far as getting a smooth transition of vee out through the tail. this part shouldn’t be that hard…but it is for me! thanks dudes for any advice you have.
I sure hope someone that knows more than me chimes in, because I’m getting ready to put some vee in the tail of my next project too. Are you doing a panel vee or rolled? I have marked the rail too, and just taken it real slow with the 10" sanding block on previous boards. Also, be careful of where your board is on the shaping racks so you don’t get a deep part where it is resting on the rack. Pretty sure most of the pros use the planer for this step as well as 90% of the rest of the board, but I’m no where near that stage. Check out Jim Phillips Master Shaper DVD, I think he puts a rolled vee in the board he makes.
no, not trying to roll it. i just want ‘flat plane’ v. when i have used the planer i end up getting a more roled v. ive now had 5 beers and im heading down to the garage. who knows what i’ll get… actually tonight im going to make a template instead…based on the wayne lynch 7"2’.
Just stumbled on this thread…yes you are right, most of us (like 100% most of us) put vee in with the planer…but you guys aren’t doing a bad thing by marking the rail if you have a true flat bottom and have the board’s plan shape cut out. To be honest, I’ve used your method before!
There’s a couple things you should learn about vee. Some of it you may know and some may turn on a light bulb or two. Here goes:
Vee increases rail rocker. Think centerline rocker (at the center stringer) and then think or rail line rocker. Too muc vee could cause a hooking effect…this can promote spin out in certain boards…maybe that’s what went down when McTavish got his radical wide back deep vee bottoms out at Sunset. Hell, anything with that wide of tail would’ve spun out.
Anyway, the difference between the flat vee and rolled vee is one of sensitivity. In another thread I divulge a a model of board I named Back to the Future and curiously enough it showed up on the “Surf Vietnam” wall mural 15 minutes into “Back to the Future 2” with the professor and Michael J Fox talking in an alley. I had nothing to do with it but imagine my surprise…anyway…roll vee is loose and sensitive and is a planing vee versus a sharpdefined vee which is a displacing vee (extreme case of DV think battleships).
Now, positioning the vee is another trip…if you advance the vee (meaning you place more vee forward and less vee out the tail, you will actually swear the board is faster. The advanced vee (say under your back foot) gives you nice rail to rail while the less vee (or even flat) out the tail gives you bite and speed. I’m a big fan of advanced vees…even in new boards with single double concaves. Some guys are following a status quo (yawn) of running single barrels with a smidge of vee right at the tail.
If you’re afraid of using the planer then translate what we do with a planer into doing it like a cave man would with a rough rock or a piece of bark. Just drop that foam down to the line you want back in the tail (if that’s the type of vee you’re doing) then start blending from there. I don’tknow if that is very clear…maybe it’s better to use some coarse sandpaper on a good sanding block and count how many strokes you take on each side and keep em equal. Obviously you are doing more strokes near the rail (think 3-2-1 as you start at the rail and head toward the stringer…then more 3-2-1…then…) .
Don’t forget that this vee going in should blend with the length of the board unless you want it more abrupt…well, actually you want it to blend (use your sanding block lengthwise) so you don’t ‘trip the wate’ into some bizarre cavitation turbulance scenario.
Enjoy yourself…if you’re married I hope all this touchy feely stuff doesn’t get the wife pissed…save some for her. If she’s happy, you’re happy.
aloha
The method I’ve used using the planer is to make a cut (the width of the planer) along the rail following the outline, up to a third of the way up the board (this is how far up the vee will go). The depth of this cut will determine how much vee you will have. I then make a cut next to that one the same length, about half as deep as the one along the rail. It ends up looking like a terrace of sorts. I then use a surform, cutting perpendicular to the stringer, to blend the corners down to a flat panel. I end up with a vee that peaks in the vicinity of your back foot, that gets flatter, but not absolutely flat, toward the end of the tail. Not as easy as it sounds but I’ve had good results using this method while shaping and in the water.
good info dead…thanks
couple o’ questions;
by ‘rolled v’ you mean belly right? thats how i understand rolled v. am i wrong on this?
how far would you advance the v on a 7’ x 19"er or an 8’ x 19.5" gun? i see such a variance in this. i have late 90’s arakawas (7’ & 7’3") where he fades out a little less than a 1/4" at almost the mid points. on a 6’8" ward coffey about 3/16" of v fades out about 3" in front of the front fins- this ones a double concave.
…im all over the place. how much v would you put in a 7’ and where would you fade it?
as far as tool choice, i still use a 12" piece of oak with sandpaper glued to it. you screw up slower this way as opposed to the planer!
Foamdust has got it about right with the planer analogy…but measuring and using a sanding block is a very good way to go…no judgement on that in the least. As far as measuring vee I think most everyone agrees that the number is derived by placing a straight edge on one side of the vee plane then dividing it in half. So a board that measures 1/2" on one side has 1/4" vee…Yes?
By rolled I mean belly. The BB (Ballbearing formula I did) had rounded vee perpenidicular to the rail but also was rounded longitudinally…that is why I ran an induced straight behind it to the tail…otherwise the water would have been wrapping ‘wrong’ for what I wanted. I love manipulating water…it’s a lazy element (big fat molecule) and does what its told!
For you advancing the vee I would place it at or slightly forward of where you will position your side fins…so 11-1/2" to 14" are good numbers. The deeper and more forward you make the vee the more you will initiate the forward rail in turns. You could start with 1/4" vee and run it out to 1/8" vee at the tail…or you might want to bump it up to 3/16" vee running out to a dead flat tail.
The induced straights for rocker is a whole different world…that was what I studied throughout the 80’s for dialing in sailboards designed for different purposes and conditions. Some had very long straights like 42" with panel vees…they would get up on a plane very quickly and go to weather quite well…other boards might have 10", 14" or 18" of straight in the tail…these versions demanded more wind to get planing but jibed easily. Some boards had sophisticated three part rockers that incorporated the best of everything possible. I had a lot of variation going on depending on wind conditions and types of sailing (surf sailing, course racing, speed ditch boards, slalom sailing, etc…) not to mention what the sailor was using for power.
I combined designs to work with sailors’ sails whether it be RAF’s (Rotating Assymetrical Foils) Camber Induced, Surfsails…the gamut…we even got to the point of having to take the flex patterns of masts into consideration.
During the period of exploring vees and induced straights one thing pertinent to this conversation became very evident…if you use a planer, and you intersect your cuts, you will never get a true straight on your tail section.
Hope this helps…
A bientot
My favorite v bottom is v between the feet. I start it at the front foot and it goes back to the middle of the trailing fin. It’s deepest just in front of the side fins, and not too deep, about 1/8" total (have to keep in mind the overlap from the glassjob will remove some). I put it in with a sanding block working from middle to rear, I pull the block one side of the blank at a time towards me as I stand at the rear, The sanding block has a piece of masking tape on one end that goes over the stringer, so it removes foam only and not stringer, I put more pressure on the block of wood as I approach about 15" from the tail (for a 7’ board) and then ease off as I approach the tail. I keep making passes on each side till I get the depth I want. This approach works real well for me, giving me a more fluid bottom than I’ve been able to get with my hand shaped concaves. I really enjoy boards with this bottom. I find them to surf more carvy/fluidly on an open face than a concave bottom, but I find the concave bottom to work better on hollow fast walls. Curious to hear other opinions.
Sounds good to me…different strokes for different folks ya know?
There’s so much attention to concave now but vee is a great feature. I use to love watching the surf movies (when we all went to the theatres instead of video) with Gerry Lopez dropping in at Banzai and making subtle rail to rail movements using the edges and vee to generate speed to come flying out the end.
It’s all good…surfing, what a gift!!
if you are using EPS you can hot wire the Vee in.
the easiest way to this is if you have rocker templates
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pin the rocker template were you want the Vee to begin
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then raise the tail of the rocker template off the bottom of the board the amount of Vee you want to add
{note this is easiest if done before templating the board, if done before templating keep in mind the edge of the squared blank is much wider than the edge of the templated board so you may want to raise the rail line of the rocker template more. Alternatively you may be able to bend your rocker templates around the templated blank though because of the curve the templates a likely not going to follow the rocker quite}
{EDIT: oops forgot an important part, run a tape stringer before you hotwire. That will hold the wire on the origonal rocker line at the center of the board.}
PF… thats slick with the masking tape on the sanding block…im going to use that tonight.
im not a fan of concaves…seems like their more work than benefit. i schpieled about this one before stating that they, and channels don’t seem to work unless its sheet glass because air gets under there. and when it is glassy i think the benefit is nominal at best. i say look at fin size and widths instead. some say im crazy though…
that said i came up with an interesting idea to test concaves on the same board. here it is…in a nutshell glass the bottom back half of the board super light/ or over sand it to thin. then ‘pressure ding’ in greater and larger degrees of concave. i guess the ultralight glass could add another variable: increased flex.
ridiculous, already been done, or worthy of further consideration? i dunno
I’ve always had this thing about consistantly reproducing the same vee in ordered boards … 'without the blessings of a machine off course"
I’ll do my best to explain !!!
The Reverse Template
Firstly, we assume you’ve already cut the planshape out …sweet !!
We then make what I call a “reverse or negative template”, that is, for the rear third or half of the board, (depending on size of board) I mark out a template, but instead of cutting it out on the outside of the penciled line as we normally do, I cut along the inside of the template line … creating a “reverse template” or negative template to what we normally use as a template … dig ??
We then sand back to the pencil line for a clean, smooth, true finish. In addition, for easy handling, this template only needs to be 1" to 1 1/2" wide !!! … you’ll see why later
You can now imagine after sanding back the inside of this template now cups around the outside of the squared of blank, right to the stringer at the tail… happy dayzzzzzz
The Process
You’ve already cut out the plan shape, prepared the bottom contours , (forward concaves, rocker etc … allowing for vee ),to a point anyway !!!
Then from the tail to where I want the vee to start, along the stringer, mark out 3" intervals / dots with a shapers square
I then rule square lines from rail to rail along those 3" intervals across the bottom of the board and continue the lines down the squared of rails on both sides of the blank
At this point you have really nice measurable gride lines running at 3" intervals along the bottom and down the side of the blank (easy and takes 5 minutes)
Here’s my self developed, high tech system for getting consistent, reproducible vees … for this exercise you’ll need to get some “hat pins” there super cheap can get them at fashion places, haberdashery suppliers etc etc.
The big benefit is there about 3" to 4" long, super fine, strong and leave no marks … I also use them for marking out templates on blanks… I stole mine from wife and mother.
We now get our “reverse template” and place it roughly were we want our vee along the side of the board … easy !!
We then get our “hat pins” and push them into the blank, under the template at the 3" verticle lines previously drawn … and now when all pins are placed, we have the template being supported on the side of the blank … hence only having a template 1" to 1 1/2" wide … very easy to handle no weight on pins
Now you can adjust to whatever you want, play with variables, go away have your dinner, think about it come back to it whatever … nothing changes
Biggest benefit I’ve had is being able to visually get a feel for blending the vee’s into rocker’s … really helps with tunung !
Once you set your vee, simply draw with pencil … “now before removing the hat pins” measure the distance from the bottom of the board along the 3" marker down the rail line to the pin for the “exact measurement” which you repeat on the other side of the board … no guess work and will be exactly the same on both sides
Place pins on other side of board, rest the template on them and draw vee template … how cool is that !! ahhh
I’ve recorded and kept measurement for vees on different boards I’ve made for different rides, (beach, point,rockers etc etc) … if anyone wants the same vee reproduced on a rebuild or different board … I just need a board number to refer back to my database of measurements… simple and consistant
Oh yes, Don’t forget the 3" grid on the bottom of the board will indicate how much your shaving off each side … these can be re-drawn as you have 3" dots along stringer … all helps as your working your way down to rail line …easy !!
It might sound long and protrated … but it’s actually the reverse it’s quick and easy once reverse templete is done
Oh God I hope it all makes sense, but it works a treat with any board, the reverse templates are always re-usable like any template and keeping a record of the side measurements takes the guess work out of the final outcomes and future boards … If they get what they want, they keep coming back !!
Anyway … have a read any probs drop me line … might even do pic’s one day
W
Foamhead, i’m calling you out…
Pics of this process PLEASE
im not calling you out like biz gravy…but i need to pictures to follow as well.
also it sounds like you vee is partial and rounded. i like my vee to be gradual, but horizontally, a flat plane from rail to stringer.
Hey Guy’s … will89 & bizgravey
no sweat !!!
I’m interstate for 10 days, (work) when I get back will take some shots, it will all make sense !!!
Pretty simple system and delivers consistancy …
will89 !!! … the vee’s I’m talking about are the flat vees running from rail to stringer
Anyway hang foul till pic’s
W
We have one thread with Aussies making fins that look like origami and another thread where people are tossing around the word, “haberdashery”
Truly Sways is a unique place in the world
Great stuff, all around :>)
and x3 on those pics, please 
Here we go …
The board being used will “not have a vee” but will do for display purpose !
Firstly, board prep
We assume you have mowed your blank down and prep’d for vee stage. We then draw lines across the bottom of the blank at 3" intervals and as you can see also see, down the side of the blank, on both sides… easy 5 min work !!
Foamhead gets fussy about getting these grid lines spot on
Next, making the Negative Template, make sure template material is dead flat
As we can see I’ve made a template of the tail,(left hand side) and we have the off cut, (right hand side) which is marked out with cross’s and cutting line which will become the negative template. Don’t forget that you actually have these negative template when you make up your full length templates … I keep the tail sections when I make full length templates
Next cut out your template
Smooth out the inside edge to compliment template/tail of board … easy another 5 min work !!
Now all the prep work is done … we can start setting the vee
I’ve used up all my JPG space … I’ll post this and start again
Hey back again …
Setting the Vee
Wow look at that … the negative template set at the desired position and being suspended by those hat pins i was talking about. The pins are set on the verticle lines running down the side of the blank at the desired depth. When your satisfied with your vee setting draw a line along the top the negative template against the side of the blank. For this, you can see I have a customised pencil which I’ve shaved down with a planer and sand paper, resulting in a fine wide tip.
Here’s the shot I was talking about, As you can see the neg template has been lifted off revealing the pins and the guide line to shape vee … now the most important stage…
BEFORE you remove the pin/s make sure to measure the distance between the pin and the bottom of the board for the other side of the board. I do them one by one and insert the pins as I go.
Once all the pins have been measured and transfered to other side, simply place the negative template on the pins and re-draw the line on the side of the bank … ka bomba equal vee on both sides
Here’s a shot without pins showing line ready for shaping
A bit of a rush demonstration … It ain’t rocket science but it delivers the goods consistantly.
If anyone’s interested I can show you a supa quick method of transfering pins from one side to the other without measuring and it’s supa accurate … (better than measuring actually)
Anyway have look any ??? drop me a line
Foamhead comes through, and it all makes sense…very nice. The best ones are always the simplest.
Absolute pleasure bizgravy … there’zzzzzzzzzz plenty more tricks up this old dogs sleeve, (I mean foamheads sleeve !!!)