I see all the threads and info about building boards the old way, and the innovative way. All that stuff is great. I love reading about it. I’m not trying to slight that in any way whatsoever.
I also know that this is basically a question and answer forum, but…
My question is:
Isn’t there any more shapers like me that like the performance aspect of surfing? I guess I’m having a brain fart here (ok, bad description), but I would like to read about the performance innovators that live by: deeper, faster, higher.
I’ve done my share of R&D, but I’d like to hear from others. Mr. Barnfield, anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Personally, I think most of the crowd here are shaping for themselves and friends…And the majority of those people are surfing/matting/skimming/body boarding for fun, not to be in the WCT. They surf what makes them happy, and what they can handle. I’m almost positive that 98% of Swaylockians can not surf a “high performance” board the way it is/was meant to be surfed, therefore they do not invest the time and thought into shaping high performance, “modern” equipment…At least that’s the vibe I get. That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.
that’s what my business partner and I do almost exclusively. We are pushing the design of the the high-performance tri-finned shortboard. 20 to 30 personal boards a year apiece is common. My most prolific “R & D” year in recent memory was 60 boards. This has been the best way for us to gain knowledge. Copying what the other guy is doing will get you about 90 percent there. That last 10 percent is the huge challenge. Keep pushing the envelope…
Ok. Good point. …but I didn’t mean to suggest that I want to shape for the WCT, but that is the kind of thing I’m talking about. I just want to be on the bleeding edge of speed, – for lack of a better word. Thanks for your input. Seriously. I’d like to hear from others.
…have I stepped across a swaylock’s line by asking about performance?
being serious for as long as this takes me to type now …
My question is:
Isn’t there any more shapers like me that like the performance aspect of surfing? I guess I’m having a brain fart here (ok, bad description), but I would like to read about the performance innovators that live by: deeper, faster, higher.
I would be very keen to hear about the performance innovations that you shape into your boards that help you to consistently surf deeper , faster , higher .
(By the way , do you mean ‘higher’ …above the wave [airs] , or higher up the wave face while holding in ? [ ie : “the high line” ] )
cheers !
ben
p.s. - “brain fart” is fine with me !! Us aussies know ALL about those , trust me …
Good one chip. That hits too close to home. But some of us want to find a way to keep our hand in the corvette world. Even if we have lost a step or two.
+1: Thanks for the words. I’d like to hear your thoughts on dimple bottoms and venturi grooves to start with.
yeh bro. lets talk aerial boards, crazy grabs, stub nose hybrids, how to boost higher, carving threeo’s…
just say the word
yep ,
and heist , that looks like a fairly “high performance” turn you’re doing in your avatar photo , to me …
Okay , now let’s hear what “high performance” really means …anyone ?
Aerials , carving threos and higher airs would probably fit the contest criteria [and the surf mag’s “criteria” for photos]. But , I’ve always wondered , and said it previously …is it the board performing at a “higher” level ?
Or … is it that the surfer has to perform more just to keep the board moving , and not sinking ? [see , for example, the “Huntington Hop” , performed regularly at a beach near you , by legions of thruster riders , once the surf gets around …oh…the knee high mark and a bit full , let’s say .
Third element [in my mind , anyway ] …and Gary Elkerton was ALWAYS a spokesperson for this …
"high performance WAVES for high performance surfing / surfers " [his famous quote was along the lines of "formula one racers need a formula one racetrack " ]
I found the dimple bottoms seem to carry a bit of water with them. Just my findings, empirically rendered. They possibly could reduce drag but not even close to the reason a golf ball can fly further and faster, but rather the boundary layer is thinned a bit, I think, and this may reduce the drag.
Venturi bottoms are where it’s at IMO, substantial speed increases coupled with a stable yet loose feel. The “intensity” of the venturi runs the gamut but all the types tested had a definite influence on the performance of the board. Where have you heard about the venturi bottoms?
I agree plus1, and the venturi grooves I saw, (late eighties), they didn’t seem to line up with the perceived water flow from the back third of the board through the fin area. It seemed like it was an attempt at the “sanded finish” aspect that so many people talk about being so much faster. (Trapped air as a cushion.) Yeah, right. Don’t get me started.
yeah dude… the “huntington hop” seems to be a product of people grossly overestimating their own ability, and requesting boards far too small/thin/short whatever… just coz thats what the local pro rides…
i did a fair old stint in a very large surfboard factory… in fact i would even be in the shop up top wondering around in my respirator sometimes, and have to fill in a custom order for a punter… “yea nah fully want a tiny board bro, low volume blah blah spray this decal that”
then id see same dude next weekend take off on a crumbly little fat burger and wobble his way to his feet, then perform something resembling the ‘funky chicken’ for about 2 seconds before cartwheeling over the handlebars!!
all because he didnt invest some time on a big, stable, non-performance board…
i always like a customer who is very honest with regard to ability, ultimately they are the ones winning.
in my opinion swaylocks has taught me so much in regard to design and performance, i dont know where id be without it.
further i dont think i have ever had a reply or discussion that has failed to help me in some way- sorry about the sickening “warm fuzzies”… just wanted to say that i appreciate the expert advice
Okay, got it Ozzy. I thought you meant the bottom contour or “dishing” but now I realize it is the skin texture to what you are referring. A lot of research done on that topic in the sailboat racing world. Could be worth a search. “Micro-grooves” come to mind as does “shark skin” film.
I think a lot of people missed the physics of dimple bottoms and golf balls.
Golf balls have dimples because they are made to grip the air as they fly at high speeds. The same way a baseball pitcher uses the seams of a ball to throw breaking pitches. Surfboards are geared to lower speeds, and higher angles of attack.
I have said this for fifteen years and nobody has believed me yet. ha! Sanded finishes do what people say and give you 1% - 2% more speed because of the tiny bit of trapped air between the board and water because of the sanded finish. True. No objections at all. BUT…
Back in the late eighties, at a contest in SPI, (South Padre Island, Texas), there was a handful of Hawaii pros that came over for the contest. They told me and a couple of others that were there about turtle waxing the hulls of their boards. (…and a couple of other things.) We thought, yeah, right. Then we tried it. IT WORKED!. I don’t remember who it was that said that, but every time I think of it, the name Dane Kealoa pops in my head. It could be him, or I could be a mile off. I don’t remember. Anyway, later I thought about the physics of it and why it was what it was. … Twenty years later I think I have an idea what is what. Maybe not, …but, maybe so.
When you drop a drop of water on a counter top; what keeps it from spreading out in a sheet of water one foot by one foot and a millionth of an inch thick? What makes it hold it’s humped up shape making it appear like a drop of water? Surface tension. The same thing that the sanded finish of a board traps against it’s bottom and “rubs against the rest of the ocean” when you surf.
Waxing a glossed board’s bottom releases more of the surface tension just like the water sheeting or beading off of a freshly waxed car. This was when (most) all boards had a glossed and polished finish. I tried the glossed finish by itself. Normal. The same board, the same day and tide and conditions, but with a turtle waxed hull, +10%. Yes. It I could feel a substantial difference. You just had to keep the wax off of the rails or when you tried to pop up on your board, you would do a face plant … froggy style. ha! The same thing later (same board, same conditions) later that day with a sanded finish, +1%, maybe 2%. These results were repeated time and time again.
I can not be right +1. Where did I go wrong? Am I brain farting again? ha!
Okay, got it Ozzy. I thought you meant the bottom contour or “dishing” but now I realize it is the skin texture to what you are referring. A lot of research done on that topic in the sailboat racing world. Could be worth a search. “Micro-grooves” come to mind as does “shark skin” film.
You had it right to begin with. I’m just such a slow typer, and a brain farter, that I can’t explain my thoughts very well. I’m no Bill Barnfield. ha!
As far as a speed finish, I have my own ‘secret sauce’ speed finish that feels like fine sandpaper. (Thanks Mr. Bill for giving me the idea for the “tease 'em and leave 'em” treatment.) nyuck nyuck nyuck.
i will watch the development of this latest one with interest ozzy,
i was spray finishing boards for years- acrylic clear with a flatting additive, and leaving fairly corse(sharkskin styles), then got into cutting back to 400 grt, then later 1200, all in the name of finding the fraction of extra speed.
if nothing else, i far prefer the feel of a heavily wet sanded board ( say- back to 1200 )
and call it superstition- but before any competition i surf, i spend to night before "jif"ing my board bottoms (a household bathroom cleanser with a very mild aggregate) it gets them soooooo smoothe and clean…they just look like they’ll do 4000 kh/h!!
I am remined of surfing a rivermouth/point break in Indo years ago. After a few days we noticed our boards were slick and shined. At first we thought it was something in the water (chemically) but eventually figured the silt suspended in the seawater somehow rubbed into the boundary layer and against the bottoms of our boards.
let’s blow the lid off…