Hey Ozzy,
Where have you heard about the venturi bottoms?
I watched others play with a lot of stuff like that in the mid to late eighties. I watched a builder named Maxwell (excellent shaper, hope he doesn’t mind) experiment with some of this stuff, and that’s where I got the idea and started my anti-knowlege. ha!
(By the way , do you mean ‘higher’ …above the wave [airs] , or higher up the wave face while holding in ? [ ie : “the high line” ] )
Sorry, I’m still trying to catch up. I’m in and out 'cause I’m rebuilding a triple-boot server from scratch tonight (All night probably). I’m just a party animal ain’t I.
Either, but mainly airs. Speed translates to either. Depends on the surfer. I’m just into high and hard. Bust it out!
Yes. A friend of mine who is now shaping for Kechele in Florida used a speed finish similar to what you’re talking about when he was making his own boards here under his own label. Fairly smooth, but had some texture. Good for hiding sander swirlies also.
They say the second thing to go is the memory. I don’t remember what the first thing was.
…That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.
lol
hey ozzy, i’ve played with hydrophillic coatings as well but it still comes down to a good combination of features…the total package if you will…my boards are biased towards speed but the way i do it is not easy…the board’s weight is a HUGE factor…here’s what i mean…i like wider curvy outline boards with lots of release for speed in mostly avg bb conditions…a few months ago i lucked out and made a 6 pound composite…much lighter than usuall…the board was amazing…so i made another one very mimilar but 5.5 pounds…not quite majical…turns out the rocker and bottom scheme were vastly different…so i went back to ride the original majic one the other day…i’ve reworked the thing due to some structural failures…im out there really struggling to find that majic in good fun waves…slow to respond and missing sections etc etc…three hours later i get out of the water and the board just seemed heavier but i wasnt sure…at home i measured its weight - 7.5lb! water intrusion…way too heavy now so the majic is lost…i thought the majic was mostly from its serendipideous rocker but the weight of the board was a huge part of it too…so now i just finished a 5 pounder balsa composite…similar outline, similar rocker and with good flex…tbd…
are you riding conventional pu/pe construction boards? have you tried a lighter crispier standard eps epoxy? if not you should consider it…not necessarily higher top speed but much faster acceleration which is actually more valuable and important in your/my style of surfing
cheers
then id see same dude next weekend take off on a crumbly little fat burger and wobble his way to his feet, then perform something resembling the ‘funky chicken’ for about 2 seconds before cartwheeling over the handlebars!!
(please don’t post those photos of me from that day okay , heisty ?)
cheers mate !
ben
Ozzy, Guys,
At the microscopic level, where all this shit happens, the sanded finish so loved by many simply has more wetted surface. Also has more drag. The highly polished/waxed (tensioned) surface dramatically reduces wetted area to the extent that it can be felt at paddleing speed. One of my “dirty little performance secrets” of the 60’s and 70’s was to leave the rails wet sanded (400, or 600 grit) and have the bottom highly polished/waxed. Think in terms of what the water molecules are doing. One other little touch is to leave the fin with a glossed, but sanded (400/600) finish. That’s where you want boundry layer attachment. It reduces stalling in abrubt high AOA turns. There are other more significant things re: fins, but that’s another discussion. The sanded finish does help on the fin.
“what makes a high performance board?”
Materials used aside , I would be interested to hear people’s thoughts / experiences on [what seems basic , but may not in fact be] …
thick vs thin
narrow vs wide
longish vs shortish
flattish vs rockered
concaves vs vee vs flat , and other bottoms [eg: bonzer]
rail types / shapes / modifications [eg: wings , e-wings, rail channels, stings , double bump]
fins …number , placement , size …
yeah , yeah , I know …"search the archives, Chip …lots of good stuff there " [and it’s true] …
but … what I am more thinking of is…
the combinations of these above listed design elements …and what people have found works best for THEM , in their waves , to allow them to perform at a "high performance " level [whatever that means to people].
The thought I was having a minute ago , and it relates to surfing in the previously mentioned “huntington hop” conditions , is …
finding and utilizing the fall line / trim / using the waves ‘power pockets’ to generate speed.
hey chip…your post helps me bring up an interesting point…
i think if someone wants to make his own board with an emphasis on hi-performance thru design, its really wise to have a keen understanding of what is actually physically happening to the board from the water, from the water to the board, from the board to the rider and from the rider to the board…
so when the question is asked:
“what makes a high performance board?”
instead of this rail does this, that rocker does that…i think its more educational and intuitive to take it to a more fundamentally physical level and say…
“a modern high performance surfboard maximizes speed and maneuverability while maintaining good control”
so then the next obvious question becomes “how to do i maximize all or some of these features knowing that when i maximize one i may or likely compromise another”
you gotta know your basic needs and wants and then understand what has to happen physically to satisfy those needs - this step is more fundamental and leads to better more intuitive understanding of the design process
for instance, if i want a board that maximizes speed and im willing to compromise some control, the obvious thing to understand then is, what makes a board have more speed? some ways to get it is to maximize lift, maximize release and minimize drag (im not saying these are the only solutions)
notice that i havent said anything about design features yet but i now know more intuitively what needs to happen physically to make speed gathering easier - this my core point. You now have a better understanding of what needs to happen physically…then you learn/implement the design features that makes the desired physicals happen.
there’s a really good recent example of this…it was Bill B’s discussion on fin cant in another thread…very physically intuitive and i agreed 100%…
which doesnt happen very often 
are you riding conventional pu/pe construction boards? have you tried a lighter crispier standard eps epoxy? if not you should consider it…not necessarily higher top speed but much faster acceleration which is actually more valuable and important in your/my style of surfing
But with the advantages of a polished and waxed surface in the water, I still don’t gloss short boards because of the extra weight. Seems that is the main driving force, and why I’m going mostly to epoxy sticks. It seems that the weight factor is the foundation for responsiveness, acceleration, and tight radius turning.
Venturi bottoms are where it’s at IMO, substantial speed increases coupled with a stable yet loose feel. The “intensity” of the venturi runs the gamut but all the types tested had a definite influence on the performance of the board.
The ones I looked at had either 4 or 6 crossing grooves on the last quarter or third of the hull getting the deepest (about 1/4" - 3/8") as they came off of the tail. Unfortunately I never got to ride one.
What kind of geometry are the ones you’re refering to?
hey chip…your post helps me bring up an interesting point…
i think if someone wants to make his own board with an emphasis on hi-performance thru design, its really wise to have a keen understanding of what is actually physically happening to the board from the water, from the water to the board, from the board to the rider and from the rider to the board…
so when the question is asked:
“what makes a high performance board?”
instead of this rail does this, that rocker does that…i think its more educational and intuitive to take it to a more fundamentally physical level and say…
“a modern high performance surfboard maximizes speed and maneuverability while maintaining good control”
so then the next obvious question becomes “how to do i maximize all or some of these features knowing that when i maximize one i may or likely compromise another”
you gotta know your basic needs and wants and then understand what has to happen physically to satisfy those needs - this step is more fundamental and leads to better more intuitive understanding of the design process
for instance, if i want a board that maximizes speed and im willing to compromise some control, the obvious thing to understand then is, what makes a board have more speed? some ways to get it is to maximize lift, maximize release and minimize drag (im not saying these are the only solutions)
notice that i havent said anything about design features yet but i now know more intuitively what needs to happen physically to make speed gathering easier - this my core point. You now have a better understanding of what needs to happen physically…then you learn/implement the design features that makes the desired physicals happen.
there’s a really good recent example of this…it was Bill B’s discussion on fin cant in another thread…very physically intuitive and i agreed 100%…
which doesnt happen very often
thanks “Mee” …
can you now take that a step further , please, and give examples of rail / rocker / width / outline / bottom contours / fins … that YOU have found fast and manouevrable ?
and how those features translate / work or not , when confronted by what a lot of us mainly ride on a daily basis …onshore , fat , rolling waves in the knee to head-high range ?
…because this is where I see the difference at my home break …the guys who can and do generate speed [and position well] on really borderline / average looking waves , and make sections and even get tubed , when there doesn’t appear to be any way . Obviously , wave sense and natural ability play a big part too…but I can’t help thinking these guys [usually only a handfull , where I surf] perhaps have not only a good understanding of the wave and how to get 'bursts of acceleration ’ from it , but also HOW to USE their boards to do that .
ben
Thanks Heist for THIS !!
[Off the fin toe in thread , but very relevant to here , I think ?]
"… i have been keeping a rather detailed speadsheet document of all my creations, complete with rider feedback.
it deals in wide points relative to mid points, fin toes, splays(cant), various other differentials… and of course, “measurement X” (as i call it)- the distance off the stringer that a projected line (thru a side fin) passes thru the forward rail.
… at just a quick glance at my speadsheet, i can compare all my shapes (down to precise numerical quantities) ,and using the feedback ( much of it my own personal riding) many “trends” and “majic” numbers show through…
in a way, eliminating some of the unknowns, and setting very clear parameters that i can follow when shaping/designing/setting out fins etc, to achieve a certain “kind of board”
*post script… in fact in reflection, many of you, im sure, have a similar chart in place? "
… cheers !
ben
I think an f’n kick ass surfer is what makes a hi-performance board.
A high performance surfboard is the one that works best for a given surfer in the conditions that are being ridden. Today it was a 9’10 Hap Jacobs single for me. Yesterday it was a 7’5" egg that was all over the wave face and would nose ride the slower sections sweet. Tomorrow who knows? Pick your board and hope it’s the right one. Sometimes the choice is magic. Sometime it’s just dead wrong.
No Worries, Rich
what makes a high performance board?"
Materials used aside , I would be interested to hear people’s thoughts / experiences on [what seems basic , but may not in fact be] …
thick vs thin
narrow vs wide
longish vs shortish
flattish vs rockered
concaves vs vee vs flat , and other bottoms [eg: bonzer]
rail types / shapes / modifications [eg: wings , e-wings, rail channels, stings , double bump]
fins …number , placement , size …
yeah , yeah , I know …"search the archives, Chip …lots of good stuff there " [and it’s true] …
but … what I am more thinking of is…
the combinations of these above listed design elements …and what people have found works best for THEM , in their waves , to allow them to perform at a "high performance " level [whatever that means to people].
The thought I was having a minute ago , and it relates to surfing in the previously mentioned “huntington hop” conditions , is …
finding and utilizing the fall line / trim / using the waves ‘power pockets’ to generate speed
Bill Barnfield , if you’re there , please ?
…I would be interested hearing your feedback on the above , please ?
thanks !
ben
Aloha guys
Great thread! So many things to comment on…but…I am just leaving the shop and have been instructed by my Wife and Daughter to “stop at Foodland and get Milk and Hostess Cherry Pies! And maybe a video. Ha!. And to be careful cause they are calling for Flash Flood Warnings on Oahu.”
So that said, I can’t participate further for now. Maybe when the family is asleep I can pop out the laptop at home and log in.
These threads are great, but they often come at times that aren’t easy for me to sync up with. Jumping in late after the momentum has tapered off is a drag. Much more fun to be there when the heat of the action powers the discussions.
Some quick thoughts…
Thraikill…great comments, kill those old wives tales
Meecrafty…Right on…Performace isn’t indivual design features, it is how they are combined to deliver a specific result that the customer views as High Performance to him.
Halcyon…Made the same point. Its what rings your bells.
BUT… I do think there is a kind of board that generally does better what Ozzy was first asking about. The board that is in a league of its own strictly made for high performance surfing. A board that 99% of surfers don’t need both because of their abilities, the quality of their waves, and why they surf.
Ozzy… Yes, polished has a very different feel than sanded…but then there are many variations of bottom treatments as PlusOneShaper noted.
Heist…The Funky Chicken broke me up…still chuckling!
Gotta go get those pies now!
[=Blue]High Performance Surfboards! Just the name conjures up all kinds of images and expectations of wild innovative design features that cause the boards to be leaps ahead of all others. When fact is, the best boards, proven over time, are devoid of gizmos and quirky design features. Not that there aren’t leaps in design from time to time. But once stabilized, it is small consistent refinements, within the parameters of that eras basic design, that creates and defines the high performance surfboard.
Keep in mind, this is assuming that the terms “High Performance Surfboard” and “Best” or “Most Advanced” are all pretty much synonomous terms. If not we have to have two distinct discussions here. One to describe the most advanced surfboard made. And one to define how and who should judge what a high performance surfboard is and then what the board is.
If we look for the most advanced board we must consider what the criteria is to define it and validate it. Simply choosing the winner because it is the most radical departure from the existing standard, doesn’t necessarily mean the board is “advanced” or really even ahead of the standard. The word “advanced” implies that the board is first in the race down the pathway toward the eventual place where all boards will someday be. Simply calling something “advanced” because it is different, is completely inappropriate and the only fair description would simply be “new” or “different”, with no presumption to it being better.
Sometimes, in fact quite often, the standard model can be quite advanced. Take tennis rackets for example. Other than Howard Head’s Prince Rackets, that had a much larger head, standard tennis rackets have been a well established and evolved design that doesn’t seem to have too much room for radical innovation. Nor have any really set a player apart from the rest. Still that doesn’t stop the best tennis players from continually exceeding the players before them and playing those “standard” rackets at incredibly “High Performance” levels!
The same is true for surfboards. We have a very matured product and a very matured activity. Even at the highest levels, surfers only differ from one another in very small increments. It has been awhile since a new surfer has come along that has a style or technique, leaps beyond everyone else. And even more rare is the surfer who has done this based on some kind of new or original surfboard design.
Less experienced surfboard makers are always looking for the magical design innovation or feature that will instantly propel them to respect and stardom in the surfing world. Little do they know, that great boards have very little to do with such elusive and self agrandizing dreams. But rather are a result of a slow, methodical, plodding through an immense pool of mostly existing design possibilities. All the while slowly absorbing and learning what things do what and in what combinations they do them better than other, and for who and where those combinations will excel.
I wish I could make these realities more exciting and provocative, like it can be when talking about all those imagined and hoped for “advanced” designs. Be assured, I hate to have people look forward to my posts, like a bad case of depression! Ha! But I haven’t figured out how to tell the truth in as exciting of ways that one can explor a great fantasy.
Lets face it, the fun and excitement in surfing and surfboard building, really comes from not taking any of it too seriously. We mostly make toys for fickle children who play in dynamically changing sand boxes, with continually evolving styles and fashion. While it is important to make those toys safe and customer friendly, we shouldn’t get ourselves in a tizzy over making our plastic, sand box buckets and shovels out of Carbon Fiber, Kevlar, Polyester or Epoxy. Not that these aren’t great materials with huge potentials, but for the majority of customers, they wane in comparison to good principles of business and exceptional customer service.
High Performance Surfboards are those boards that allow a particular surfer to surf to his ultimate abilities in the waves he needs to, if he wants to. It is all in the eye of the beholder and that is exactly what makes surfing so much fun and so unique among sports activities. Everyone can participate at whatever level they like and at the same time, believe anything they like about whatever level they “think” they actually perform at. It is all kind of one big illusion that everyone agrees to leave generally unmeasured and unjudged because it is much more about the experience and value that each person gets from surfing and much less about finish lines and absolute measurements of performance.
That is exactly why it is so hard to definitively define what a good surfboard is, let alone what a High Performance Surfboard is. Still it is all fun to speculate about in that sense there is no need to really resolve anything.
Please continue the fanciful discussions about design they are great fun and a good read. I will try to throw in my 2 cents here and there on things like sanded finishes or other issues that come up.
[blue/]
Lets face it, the fun and excitement in surfing and surfboard building, really comes from not taking any of it too seriously.
" A M E N … preach it brother Bill !" I look forward to your posts for the simple reason of …
they are a reality / perspective check , as well as the voice of experience . Thanks !
ben