What makes a high performance board?

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Less experienced surfboard makers are always looking for the magical design innovation or feature that will instantly propel them to respect and stardom in the surfing world.

I resemble that remark. LOL j/k

I want to thank everyone for their responses so far, this is every educational for me.

Very good points Bill. “High performance” can mean so many different things to so many different people, and would usually be defined by any one person as what feels like a magic board or takes their surfing to the next level. Of course the wave break and type of waves to be ridden on plays a very big part in the design. …not to mention the skill level of the surfer riding said board.

And yes, I’m not really talking about any one latest and greatest design element to make any board defy gravity and make your friends say wow. IMO, that doesn’t exist. But rather I’m refering to the combination of design elements and design tweaks that seem to give the best overall short board performance. This would include the board materials as well. I would also like to hear about tweaks that are/were supposed to break the barrier and make a major difference in speed and maneuvering like speed finishes, the dimple bottom, venturi bottoms like PlusOneShaper commented on, and even fins like force foiled SpeeedFins, the Vector Force 3/2s, and the way they relate to the overall design of a short board meant for the most radical maneuvers.

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Original quote by Heist:

"… i have been keeping a rather detailed speadsheet document of all my creations…

(I keep mine in my head. That must be where I went wrong.)

I started this thread because I wanted (and still want) to hear other peoples thoughts and ideas on the subject, whatever they might be. To narrow down the box a little and give a general example from which to relate to, there would have to be a couple of givens.

1.) A typical short board model surfboard.

2.) The rider would have to be a good shortboard surfer.

(Average waves will suit the purpose of this discussion.)

I’ll try to get the feeding frenzy going by throwing a typical short board model into the paranha tank for everyone to pick apart.

A short board for average waves and a good surfer around 165-175 lbs.

  • Material: Epoxy board with double 4 oz deck and a 6 oz bottom
  • Dimensions: 6'2" x 11" x 19 1/4" x 14" x 2 3/8" (If he's not a real good paddler then a 12" nose.)
  • Fins: Vector Force 3/2s @ 3 1/2" & 11" x 1 1/8" inset and 6* cant with 1/4" toe-in
  • Rocker: 4 1/2" x 2 1/4"
  • Concave: 1/8" double
  • Vee: 1/4"
  • Rails: 60/40 slightly pinched
Input? Constructive critisizm?

Everyone: Let me hear yours. What would you shape for the parameters I listed?

very close to my specs and dimensions…GENERALLY, for a faster, flightier board here’s what i would change:

  • thinner with lighter corkier materials - maybe 2 1/8 - 2 1/4

  • more tail width ~14.3

  • a bit more rocker overall (surprise!), not so staged, smooth

  • single (no doubles for me) concave dependent on rocker, usually 1/8 to 3/16, peaking right between my feet, going into a sunken double between the fins and out the tail

  • no vee

  • low boxy rails with either a very small bottom radius or tucked under edge for release (im very picky here…actually picky everywhere)

your dimensions sounds like a modern rocket fish which are superfun in decent grovel…very curvy outline which i like for pocket surfing but low projection…i tried a low rocker version recently and didnt like it too much, my bottom turns felt restricted…so many variables to deal with!

Here’s the standard “performance thruster” that I like for decent waves.

I ride an Al Merrick “Twinfinner” (which is a twin fin with a small trailer, 5’10" x 19 x 2 3/8" with a very pulled in 13.75" tail, about 12-12.5 nose. Widepoint forward) This is a high performance board, but just to keep things simple and not to deviate too much, here is the standard high-performance tri-fin that I prefer:

I am 5’11" and 140 lbs. This is for average beachbreak of many varying conditions, from knee high to about 1 foot overhead.

*5’10" x 18 1/2" x 2 1/4"

*11" nose

*pretty wide tail, about 14 1/2", maybe 14 3/4" with a moderately wide tail block.

  • Very very thin rails, very boxy and not pinched or eggy in the least bit.

  • single concave, then double, then vee through the fins

Also, low nose rocker at about 4" and lots of tail rocker at about 2 1/2"

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very close to my specs and dimensions…GENERALLY, for a faster, flightier board here’s what i would change:

  • thinner with lighter corkier materials - maybe 2 1/8 - 2 1/4

  • more tail width ~14.3

  • a bit more rocker overall (surprise!), not so staged, smooth

Can you elaborate? 4.75" x 2.5"? More?

  • single (no doubles for me) concave dependent on rocker, usually 1/8 to 3/16, peaking right between my feet, going into a sunken double between the fins and out the tail

Are you talking about the tail concaves going out the tail at full depth?

  • no vee

  • low boxy rails with either a very small bottom radius or tucked under edge for release (im very picky here…actually picky everywhere)

I was refering to a tuck under edge on mine that has a normal transition from the hard edge at the tail to a std. tucked edge at the middle to no tucked edge or almost no tucked edge at the nose (soft). But you would go with a lower rail. Interesting.

your dimensions sounds like a modern rocket fish which are superfun in decent grovel…very curvy outline which i like for pocket surfing but low projection…i tried a low rocker version recently and didnt like it too much, my bottom turns felt restricted…so many variables to deal with!

What about the glassing schedule. Would a 4 oz epoxy bottom hold up, or would it ding too easy and start taking on water?

Thanks for the input JLW.

hey ozz,

regarding rocker…since i design in so many fast features, more width, more release & squirt, i get a bit of control back with rocker…to a point tho…dialing in the perfect rocker is not easy and still learning…

concave depth varies, peaks between the feet…think of it this way, its also about having less rocker down the centerline of the board…out the tail ive got maybe 1/16 max in the sunken doubles…no concave under the nose just flat…take a close look at a CI Flyer…excellent reference design

ive learned to shape my boxy rail with a sanding block…like making mini rail bands…minimal strokes of the screen too…super easy for me now

not really sure about lams…talk to greg

btw, i like FCS Rusty fronts and a medium center…makes a big difference…a lot of guys ride AMs but i dont like them…i think the tips flex too much or something…the foils are quite different too…way better on the rusty’s…also my wide point is 3 inches behind center on my 6’4s

heres my latest…really bad lighting throws off the visual symmetry but its there…

6’4 x 19.5 x 2 x 14.6 x 12 x 5.1lb

Ha!

The board I just finished has heaps more rail rocker than bottom rocker…flat trim = fast, rail trim = turny…at least that’s how it worked out on my last board. Double begins at 20", just in front of the lead fins, subtle ridge growing out of the single with the side 'cave depth staying static for a couple of inches until it slowly starts to fade to a VERY slight vee right in the middle of the trailing fin and off the tail. I’ll be testing this weekend; http://stormsurf.com/cgi-bin/4cast.cgi?ID=enp.46206 Oh YEAH!

I’d be wary of that glass schedule…most references in the archive point to at least double 6 on the bottom and triple top if you’re not sandwiching. Meecrafty can give you a better idea; he likes his bottoms soft…on his boards…;). I wouldn’t worry about water intrusion with thin glassing; that comes down to your hotcoat. The worry is denting and dinging. I’d imagine that a lightly glassed board will flex like crazy (which could be good), but wouldn’t last long…which could be fine if all you care for is the short term performance. You can ALWAYS make another one ;).

I just checked this thread out now and had to read the entire thing and re read it just so I wouldnt miss anything… It’s funny I’m in a place with virtually no surf “scene” and I’m coming up with similar things to you guys. Seems like no one wanted to mention these things to now, we were all jsut kind of keeping shit to our selves…

Ok, my thoughts on bottoms, Like thrailkill says, down at a molecular level tiny grooves or “dimples” jsut add skin friction. Polishes do work because you are filling any “grooves” and creating a certain kind of “boundry layer”. A surfboard is a planning hull, a golf ball is completely different; two different concepts completely. A golf ball has circulation, the bottom of your board isn’t going to start spinning. I like to put dimples near the area where the fins/ bottom meet. At this area there is alot of turbulence and vertices which can’t be controlled and take away from the hold of the fin ( think about how the water wraps around the fin) By creating an area of turbulence you create this boundry area at the axis and then more hold below the turbulence at the fins…

my bread and butter concave is based on a “venturi nozzle”. I’de be curious to what kind of variations you guys have been experimenting with. I rented a 1973 Bing bonzer from a shop owner in the OBX, after riding the board I started researching the bonzer and then the venturi effect. also think about how you can manipulate the rocker with a concave, versus rail rocker…

Beside bottom concaves, flex is very important, theres a ton of potential energy that you can tap into by being able to load/unload your board…If you throw a rubber band at your friend he will look at you like your stupid, pull it back and snap it at him and you can hit him in the eye…haha

My idea and style of performance surfing comes from going as fast as i can for as long as possible, simple right…

A high performance board for me is a board that will go where i want to, when I want. I think at a certain level, when you get into a certain mind frame, you really start to tap into your potential, like thinking and doing become so related, you just start throwing down…then you can tweak you’re boards…

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…out the tail ive got maybe 1/16 max in the sunken doubles…

I’m trying to understand exactly what you’re talking about.

Do you mean the total depth of the tail concaves is 1/16", and you’ve got 1/16" concave depth leaving the back edge of the tail, or do they come back level before leaving the back edge of the tail?

About the glassing schedule:

A single 6 oz epoxy bottom holds up fine. I am curious if I could use a single 4 oz without it dinging too easy. With epoxy, it is a major factor because of the weight gain from leaking dings. I don’t want to make a disposable board, unless it is specifically requested to lighten it up as much as possible. Maybe Greg will chime in with his thoughts on this.

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My idea and style of performance surfing comes from going as fast as i can for as long as possible, simple right…

Bingo. Maneuvers key off of speed. Gouges, aerials, etc. To me, average waves are a little on the weaker side. That’s why the numbers I threw out there fudged a little in the speed generating direction. A little more thickness, a tad flatter rocker, fins that have some lift, etc.

Aloha Ozzy

A question? Does an “epoxy board” mean EPS foam? EPS would change allot of things.

The situation you describe would result from me in Hawaii as a …

Super Blue Clark blank. 1/8" stringer

Polyester resin, double 4 oz deck, single 4 oz bottom. No it won’t last for ever, but who wants to be riding the same board a year from now anyway!

Sanded finish. Cause it is cheap and popular not because it is best.

I would include strength spars along the stringer as Hawaii would push the board to the breaking point. And because his larger size and thin board would over flex and not spring back properly.

Dimensions approx., 12.2 x 18.7 x 14.2 Squash tail. But these are highly dependent on the waves, surfe and boards in his existing quiver.

The fins would go on at 3 1/4" x 11" x 1 1/8". A tighter grouping like yours would be ok for slower waves, more pivoty surfing. Toed in to nose for aggressive turning, or 1" off nose for longer waves and trims. Cant at about 7-8 degrees depending on depth of concave and Resistance force needed relative to surfers turning force.

Actual fin templates depend on the rider. Stock would get the FCS YU fin.

Because of Hawaii’s differences, I would use more nose and tail rocker. Again depends on wave and rider.

I would use a full concave through the last 2/3 of the board. No Vee.

Rails, hard in tail, soft at nose, progressively blending in between. Volume of rail would depend on the rider and how he surfs and what he prefers to achieve proper weighting and deweighting without bogging from low volume or inability to fully sink the rail due to too much volume

Ozzy, I remember doing a magazine interview back in the late 70s early 80s and Rusty was there as I was borrowing his shaping room. Rusty asking exactly the questions you are and he was bemoaning that when the top shapers do interviews there is never any technical info contained in it. This is a common problem as top shapers use a broadly floating pallet of design decisions when individualizing boards. So much so that you simply can’t explain in numbers what the outcome will be, without the customer standing in front of you. And, what I would make for that same guy 6 months later would still be different as his abilities and needs evolve and my understanding of the specific blends he needs also improve. “Best” is a very transient moment in time. And is judged with very limited exposure to all the alternatives that may be available. Even the most experienced guys have only seriously explored maybe 50% of what could be. But that 50% has taught them enough so that they can reasonably speculate on 40% of the other 50%. In the remaining 10% there may be something remarkable and when the time comes it may reveal itself.

To be clear Ozzy, I wasn’t thinking of you when I said…“less experienced”. But I am glad you got my point. Seeking after that magical number for tail rocker, that you might think all the pros know and use, is a waste of time. It all depends too much on too many other variables.

That singular magical formula that can make a bad board builder good, just doesn’t exist. I know it seems like it ought to! That is why surfboard making is so seductive. Each board you feel like your getting closer to that elusive target of the perfect board. The seduction is increadibly powerful! Add in some occasional positive comments about your boards from the “hot guys” and then a magazine mention and it can become a full on addiction.

Next thing you know your deep in the business of surfboard building and more poor than you were when you had a real job and bought your boards from someone else! Ha!

Besides… even if we could all define the perfect board, how many could get their hands to do the work accurately enough to arrive at all those numbers perfectly? This is one of the reasons way playing with dramatic, visible design elements is so attractive. It is way more easy to just drop in some dimples, deep channels, venturis, unique fins etc and prove to the world that your on the cutting edge of design.

If we saw these things more like they really are…as different fashionable additions to the underlying design base…we wouldn’t worry so much that we might be missing out on the latest wave of advancement in surfboard design. These are spinner wheels, 20" speakers, Versace designed seat covers and diamond studded steering wheels. With the right adjustments to the base design, they can all be made to work. But look at the long term… which one of these is still around and kicking?

Enjoy them for the accecssorizing that they are so you can keep pace with the fashion trends of surfboard design. This is the whole fun of backyard surfboard making. There are no real customers other than yourself that have to be pleased so you can trip out on all kinds of wild inspirations. Chrome plate those channel bottoms. Put 200 watts behind those fins. Put a 12" lift kit on that nose rocker! Have a ball. There are no rules and there are no absolutes. Surfing is so different to everyone that does it and that is the magic. In no other sport can a total beginner buy some materials for about $150.00 bucks and create his own hardware to embark on his personal quest of becoming a member of that activity. That’s really amazing when you think about it!

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A question? Does an “epoxy board” mean EPS foam? EPS would change allot of things.

Yes. #2 EPS with RR resin and standard “E” or “E-warp bias” glass with a single 3mm high density PVC foam stringer. Sorry I wasn’t more clear about that.

The situation you describe would result from me in Hawaii as a …

I wouldn’t have the first clue about shaping a board for Hawaii… but I love hearing feedback about it. Too much info is never enough for me.

To be clear Ozzy, I wasn’t thinking of you when I said…“less experienced”. But I am glad you got my point.

Well I am. Especially compared to the top 1% like you and a few others from this forum. Don’t hold back. I really appreciate your honesty and openess. Don’t change a word. That said, j/k = just kidding.


Hahaha. I love reading your stuff. We’re on the fast track to poverty. lol

Extremely valuable info Bill. Thanks.

I guess I wasn’t real clear about what I was after. So very true that there is not a magic combination of numbers. I wish there was also.

First and foremost, I just like reading the feedback from everyone and hearing their thoughts and different perspectives on the subject.

Let me see if I can put it another way. If you had someone you knew, or a friend of a friend, come to you with the parameters I mentioned (weight, skill, waves to be surfed) and wanted you, or the others in here to shape them a high performance board, you wouldn’t want to shape them a stock board that you would put in someone’s surf shop, that’s just too plain vanilla most of the time. For a shop board I would keep it simple to work well for as wide of a range of customers, wave types, and skill levels as I could. But I would want to shape a friend of a friend a board with proven subtle refinements to get the most out of the board and the waves he would be surfing. For me, I have some favorite features that I mentioned before that I would incorporate into his board. But that will differ from shaper to shaper, and that is what I like hearing about the most. The diversity. e.g. – My favorite high performance board features are _____________, I like them because of ________________, they seem to work the best in average waves because _______________, my other thoughts on the subject is ________________. (I don’t mean the “fill in the blank” stuff literally.)

I also like hearing about all the other stuff too. The dimples, venturis, and all the rest. I wouldn’t put that in my boards most of the time, but once in a while I would like to make one just for fun, or for the right customer. I like hearing other people’s feedback, thoughts, and especially experiences with that stuff. Also surfer feedback about the designs they like most, and why. Priceless.

It seems that the hi-performance aspect is so rarely discussed here, that I want to beat this horse to death. ha!

Aloha Ozzy

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First and foremost, I just like reading the feedback from everyone and hearing their thoughts and different perspectives on the subject.
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I also like hearing about all the other stuff too. The dimples, venturis, and all the rest. I wouldn't put that in my boards most of the time, but once in a while I would like to make one just for fun, or for the right customer. I like hearing other people's feedback, thoughts, and especially experiences with that stuff. Also surfer feedback about the designs they like most, and why. Priceless.

We are right on track here Ozzy. This is what I meant about realizing the Accessory, nature of these things and how it is fun to talk about them. How cool would it be if there was a surf museum of only unique and original designs. Walking among them, feeling them, discussing the theories behind them…very entertaining stuff. It would be like a men’s version of “girls gone shopping”! Ha!

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For me, I have some favorite features that I mentioned before that I would incorporate into his board. But that will differ from shaper to shaper, and that is what I like hearing about the most.

I don’t think I really have any secrets or special additions for custom boards. I am pretty sure I understand your question and it may apply to many shapers but I honestly really poor my heart into every board I do. I don’t mean that to sound so self serving really. I just try to make every board contain all the correct balance of features so that it works comfortably well. In other words, be it stock or not, if I imagine a board for certain riders and wave conditions, I tune that board for that use. So… while it doesn’t make a better board than the other, a board for higher performance surfing for the same sized advanced ability rider in critical waves, for example, would generally be …

Narrower

Thinner

Have more rocker

Have less cant on the fins and less toe in

Have more severe concaves

Be light as possible considering materials used.

Have a snappy flex that was a bit firmer.

The same sized rider in non critical waves, who was intermediate in ability would get from me a board that was…

Wider

Thicker

Have less rocker

Have more cant on the fins and toed in more

Have more gentle concaves

Still be light as possible considering materials used.

Still have a snappy flex that was more easy to innitiate bend

On neither of these boards would I normally include any unusual design features.

Have you ever used perimeter stringers to allow the boards to be made thinner with otherwise comparable materials?

okay …

time for a question now …

can a “high performance” board be a twin keel fish ? a three or five fin bonzer ? a quad fin ? a single fin ?

…or , [by media portrayal assumptions] , when people talk about “high performance surfboards” in the year 2005 , is it kind of an unspoken assumption that it will be a thruster like you have just desribed , Bill ?

I ask , not so much to be the “devil’s advocate” , as just an observation of mine …and I’m with Aquafiend to some extent , in that I have observed ‘kick ass’ surfers , as he put it , RIPPING the bag out of it on single fins and fish , and twinnies [from yesteryear]…

…they are [ to my mind and eyes anyway ] doing “high performance surfing” …on boards which perhaps the magazines and the average grom on the beach would think of as “non-high performance surfboards” or even , worse , I have heard referred to as "low performance boards ".

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How cool would it be if there was a surf museum of only unique and original designs. Walking among them, feeling them, discussing the theories behind them…very entertaining stuff. It would be like a men’s version of “girls gone shopping”! Ha!

LOL. Yer killin’ me.

So… while it doesn’t make a better board than the other, a board for higher performance surfing for the same sized advanced ability rider in critical waves, for example, would generally be …

Narrower

Thinner

Have more rocker

Have less cant on the fins and less toe in

Have more severe concaves

Be light as possible considering materials used.

Have a snappy flex that was a bit firmer.

The same sized rider in non critical waves, who was intermediate in ability would get from me a board that was…

Wider

Thicker

Have less rocker

Have more cant on the fins and toed in more

Have more gentle concaves

Still be light as possible considering materials used.

Still have a snappy flex that was more easy to innitiate bend

On neither of these boards would I normally include any unusual design features.

Aloha Bill. Excellent feedback again. Thanks. (Check your PM’s.)

Excellent feedback from everyone! Keep 'em coming.

What about the rails in both of your examples? (Just for the sake of discussion.)

A quick note: the 1/4" toe-in I mentioned before was really for discussion purposes. I have never measured the toe-in like that. That’s not nearly accurate enough for me.

I’m pretty new to this site having recently gotten interested in building my own boards after a long non-surfing hiatus. I have to say that the information in this thread is tremendous. Thank you all!

I’ve pretty much tried them all…

board/bottom shapes/textures fins and chemical add-ons (currently I like Surfco’s and 303)

It seems its all about how a board can instantly generate speed and control it.

So a board that works for the mush of Barber’s Point isn’t something I’d ride at Haleiwa, Pipe or Sunset.

What I saw being made for AI from Eric and Jeff was a 6’2" with very subtle curves and extremely light. It seems that for competition most boards don’t have radical anything with the exception of the bananas which only lasted a short while most comp boards come back to the industry standard 6’2" with subtle changes here and there.

Meanwhile for the non-pro alot of things are available because most of us are looking for a crutch since we can generate speed like AI, Mick or Parko off the tail or off the nose with a wide monkey stance like Taj. So most of the radical design are for us “common folk” cause we are willing to give it a go. Hell just look at Chippy…

With out speed it’s almost impossible to “create” performance no matter what you ride and the wave you are riding plays a big factor in how much speed is available.

So far the fastest “junk wave” board I’ve ever rode is Jeff Alexander’s gemini design which is a complex arrangement of concaves. A huge scoop to deep nose concave flattening out to a shallow concave flowing again to a deep concave through the tail running through a set of quads. Fishes are okay too but thick/thin ultra wide boards do not come around from behind very well and you can never count on being in front of or near the “hook” ak the time. .I haven’t found anything that develops the same speed out of a single turn yet.

But would I ride this in some serious hawaiian stuff… No, I’d rather have a BK, Rawson, Brewer, or Bushman under my feet where speed and edge control are what you are looking for… Narrow, thin, hard vee’d and gunny.

So for me to look at a boards performance without considering where you will be riding it or how good of a rider you are, would be a valid question.

Just a old fart’s look at this never ending question and search…

I always liked this shot of Matt Howard at Rincon (“Mad dogging” I believe is how one magazine put it)… Gene Cooper’s boards are not what you’d typically associate with the much hyped “high performance” designs others are trying to market but obviously in the right hands and in the right waves they have plenty of high performance capability.

http://www.cooperfishsurfboards.com/mateo.html

Could you post the results of all that R and D? Just to give you parameters- how about for hollow, So. Cal beach break, head high and under, surfer about 5’10" and 160 pounds? What would you recommend for speed and hard turns (forget airs, I’ve only seen two local surfers consisitently pull airs and the groms flailing out the back of the waves is not my cup of coffee).