What makes a high performance board?

General Discussion
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Quote:
Could you post the results of all that R and D? Just to give you parameters- how about for hollow, So. Cal beach break, head high and under, surfer about 5'10" and 160 pounds? What would you recommend for speed and hard turns (forget airs, I've only seen two local surfers consisitently pull airs and the groms flailing out the back of the waves is not my cup of coffee).

Do you want to generate speed well AND pull hard turns? B/c there is a trade-off there.

Do you want to be able to generate speed or sustain speed well? B/c there is a trade-off there (unless you use rotating rail fins, then you get the best of both).

At 5’10" 160 you could probably pick up just about any performance oriented shortboard, a tail about 14 inches wide, single to double concave, hard down rails, and do well…fins toed in 1/4" for more speed generation, 3/16" for harder turns. If you use less toe use more rocker and vice versa. Fins set at 3.5 and 11 inches, or 3.5 and 10.5 if you want harder turning and twitchier, or 3.5 and 11.5 if you want to draw turns out more, more stable.

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Great info oneula! Thanks.

Chip, other designs hi-performance? IMO, I think the truth is in the eye of the beholder.

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Quote:

Could you post the results of all that R and D? Just to give you parameters- how about for hollow, So. Cal beach break, head high and under, surfer about 5’10" and 160 pounds? What would you recommend for speed and hard turns (forget airs, I’ve only seen two local surfers consisitently pull airs and the groms flailing out the back of the waves is not my cup of coffee).

I see that you’re addressing your question to PlusOneShaper, but if I might throw my 1 cents in as well.

The best thing for me would be to look at your favorite board for those conditions, and build on that. Then I would want to know if you want Poly or EPS/Epoxy.

But to throw out some numbers with minimal info, I would shape you:

  • 6'2 x 11" x 18.75" x 14" x (2.25" thick for poly/2.0" to 2.125" for epoxy)
  • 5.125" x 2.5" rocker, 70/30 down rails with a tucked edge (no bumps or wings)
  • 1/8" single concave flowing to 1/4" of vee off the tail (to help go rail to rail at higher speeds and give your turns a little more bite)
  • Vector 3/2 fins with a center hatchet fin set at 3.5" & 11"
  • Side fins 4* cant and toed in to two inches off the nose
  • Round tail or a rounded squash
But that's just me. I'm sure that PlusOneShaper and the other guru's here can nail it down much tighter for you.
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this thread and these comments really interest me , because none of the boards I have made yet have really satisfied me in every area …

some trim nicely , and maintain speed well . Some bogged rail on backhand reos. Some nose ride well . Some went rail to rail well .

Most all of them paddle well [2 1/2" thick?!] , but the thickness in the tail, combined with a 5’10 , 145 lb forty four year old , sometimes meant turns were sometimes a bit sketchy [slidey , which I don’t really look for in a turn]

After trying quite a few different designs since I started surfing , I had pretty much avoided the "modern , ‘high performance thruster’ " , [from 1991 onwards, anyway] , as I found / find the lack of float hurts my back too much after too short a period of time . That , and the “oversensitiveness” of the narrow outline, and narrow nosed template , seemed [seems] to me to work best when continually turned . Not a bad thing , it’s just that for me , “double pump” bottom turns and lots of ‘wiggles’ on the face to generate speed , where normally the board would have done that for me …well …these would take getting used to . [Can be done , not a problem …just a rethink on my part, and adapting my ‘style’ to fit the board.]

BUT… now…

I am at the place now where , after trying some things to satisfy my curious nature [fish , horrendous attempt at a three fin bonzer [let’s forget that one , shall we ?] , ‘stubbie’ , 7’ single fin , vee bottom , bonzer bottom single fin , 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 fin setups , single concave, belly , 50/50 rails , s-deck, channels, flat bottoms …

I have to admit that I am now more curious [and ready] than ever before to actually buy a ‘modern’ shortboard blank , with more rocker and narrowness than any of the boards I’ve made [with the possible exception of the ‘greenpin’ lavz is presently on] , and make a “conventional” thruster . [Whether it is “high performance” or not under MY feet , will remain to be seen …But then again …realistically…How many 44 yo’s do you know who you see CONSISTENTLY busting and landing airs , doing cutbacks to reverses, backhand reos around to 11 o’clock , and backhand and forehand carving 360s, for instance ? ]

My thruster may be a little wider and thicker than the previous measurements mentioned [my back , remember ??] , but I am hoping to at least get the feel of what riding “one of them” [regularly] is like . And , if need be , adapting my surfing to suit the board’s ‘performance’ characteristics.

One good thing about having lived on this beach for 15 years , is that I have a group of people who could and would ‘test pilot’ a thruster I make , who surf better than me , and who ride thrusters all the time . So , this would give me some kind of ‘baseline’ to work from , hopefully .

Then again , maybe I should just talk to ‘stubs’ …who purports to being a young thruster only rider . [you know …“never lose touch with [my] inner grommet” perspective …

ben

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Chipper I think something like my weapon which is 5’10" 19" 2 3/8" with a higher general volume would be a good base to start on.

maybe go up to 6’2" add some more rocker.


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hi Josh !

…nose and tail measurements

nose and tail rocker

tail tip to tip measurements …

please ?

cheers !

ben

…is that the channel bottom ?

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Flat bottom, around 1984, let me go check the nose and tail dims… (there on the stringer)…

nose: 11 5/8"

Tail: 14 5/8"

Pod: around 5"

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thanks mate !

…I just went down the shops , and saw one guy out in head high plus sets …25 knot onshore , backwashy … side chop too .

After I’d been watching for about a minute , he drifts up the face of a wave ,spins around , one paddle , drops vertical , FLIES off the bottom … stalls …and gets a stand up tube . Flies out of that , buries his arm to the elbow , bertlemann style , then brings it round . For the foam rebound . Pumps off the bottom …pumps down the line , and boosts an air . In the closeout end section , which he lands , no worries .

NICE wave in .

It’s Drew .

I check out his board . Its a solomon s-core , 6’2 x 18 x 2 1/4"

Drew is 24 , 5’10 and about 80kgs [?12 stone / c 170lbs , or so?]

the bottom is a pretty basic thruster setup , with single to double concave , and tucked under edges , softer in the nose , hard in the tail .

It’s a pintail .

…I think I was MEANT to see that !

ben

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Chip: Destiny?

I’ve always been a hi-perf guy. My philosophy has always been: “If I’m going to fall, I’m going to fall over-powering a section while laying it on a rail and not chop-hopping.” I have always lived by that. And now that is what turns me on when shaping a board.

Btw, I absolutely hate the modern “hop out of a lip to pose for a pic before going splat.”

Shortboarder for life. Lay it on a rail.

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I think you were too…

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hi Greg …

you mean meant to see it , or having a brain fart ?

both are fun , sometimes

windy ben

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And I’m with you Ozzy…lay it on a rail.

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Meant to see it.

I was at Byron years ago, and a guy called Ben King took off forehand on a head high right near the wreck. He went really fast from takeoff, full top to bottom, sending spray everywhere, to finish up with a linking full speed roundhouse cutback right back up to 12 oclock and bashed the shit out of the closeout, all done with incredible style.

He rode a Gary Timperly twin fin, not unlike MRs. (Timpo ripped too)

Best wave I’d ever seen ridden at that stage of my surfing. There are other moments, but that one sticks.

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so Wildy , you reckon ben king was benking [as the springbox would say ] it onto a rail ?

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Quote:
Have you ever used perimeter stringers to allow the boards to be made thinner with otherwise comparable materials?

Aloha Blakestah

Hmmmm. Not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying that boards with PS can be made thinner with less tendency to break? If so I don’t disagree. But it is a big leap to PS to fix a problem that I haven’t seen as big enough to warrant the associated production costs and increase in price to the customer.

Not saying it wouldn’t be worth it. Just that customers aren’t asking for it. Nor rushing to pay for it.

Did that answer your question?

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can a "high performance" board be a twin keel fish ? a three or five fin bonzer ? a quad fin ? a single fin ? ...or , [by media portrayal assumptions] , when people talk about "high performance surfboards" in the year 2005 , is it kind of an unspoken assumption that it will be a thruster like you have just desribed , Bill ? I ask , not so much to be the "devil's advocate" , as just an observation of mine ...and I'm with Aquafiend to some extent , in that I have observed 'kick ass' surfers , as he put it , RIPPING the bag out of it on single fins and fish , and twinnies [from yesteryear].....

…they are [ to my mind and eyes anyway ] doing “high performance surfing” …on boards which perhaps the magazines and the average grom on the beach would think of as “non-high performance surfboards” or even , worse , I have heard referred to as "low performance boards ".

Contest and some free surfing that pretty much follows the contest “style” of surfing have defined High Performance Surfing as a particular thing in MOST people minds. Especially if they read the magazines too much! Ha! So much so that we can say HPS and know what most would think we were talking about.

But in reality that it way to narrow of a view to incompass all HPS. It is a commercial/contest/media view that is used and promoted to sell stuff. That doesn’t mean it isn’t out on the cutting edge. It is! But it is a limited description and view. Regardless though we are kind of stuck with it.

For example, anyone that knows HPS at Sunset would tell you that Butch Perreira was one the the best surfers at Sunset of all time. Easily on a par with the best guys in the world. And far beyond most of them on just syle alone. But he couldn’t win a contest there. Bobby owens had a similar problem!

But back to the issue. If we attach too much cool factor to what we or they think HPS is, then everyone will want their version of surfing to be included under the HPS umbrella regardless of where they are surfing or what they are riding, or how they actually surf. This of course won’t work and will water down the whole thing.

Heroic events, activities and performances need to be protected so that they retain some value. You just can’t go around calling everyone a hero. They might be super stars or celebrities but only a very few people really qualify as true HEROES. If you don’t protect the use of the term it will be overused and soon have no meaning at all.

So… maybe we need to find a few different words or phrases to describe what we are really talking about. HPS at Pipeline and Sunset just isn’t the same thing as HPS is at Huntingon Beach. Both are at the upper limits of the Zone they are being performed in, but there is a huge difference in the ZONE. We need a different way to quickly communicate that difference. HPS is just too inclusive and makes this whole discussion we are trying to have, way to broad.

It may all be HPS, but some HPS deserves a differnt kind of award and a protected language to go along with it so we know what we are talking about and the right images come to mind. But then that isn’t what surfing is about really and the reason it is so popular is because everyone can believe they are doing that HPS thing and no one can reallly tell them different. Everyone is the best in their own mind and what is so cool about surfing is that it paints with such a wide brush on a huge canvas that no one can ever really get measured and we can all comfortably live right or wrong, in our own personal illusions.

Gotta go home. Catch you guys later

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Aloha! Here is Titus with our version of “high performance”. Aloha…RH

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nice !!!

…are all three tow - in boards ??

Todays serendipidity for me !!

A friend just got back from a second hand shop [looking for more old boardshorts for me to cut up for fins ] , none there …

but…

scored THIS , instead …a ten year old issue …

…good timing , eh ??

382×512 72.7 KB

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Bill,

Reading your posts with great interest…re your rails you say they’re soft in the nose and get harder towards the tail.

The last few boards I’ve made, I went with B burger’s idea of keeping a hard rail all the way up…seems to work for me… you against this kind of design … if so why?

Really interested in hearing your reply…no one seems to agree wrt surfboard design do they!

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Howzit?!? The red and the blue ones are 5’10" fish types. No straps, paddle in. These things go off, from tiny size to large size. Seeing this guy ride them at Hanalei is an experience to remember. I’ve ridden some nuts waves out there too on 5’10"-6’3". Going so fast on such a small board is one of the most rad sensations, ever. The smallest blue one is a 5’2" wakeboard deck with a hydrofoil bolted to it. Special shoes for riding that one. You can kind of see the foil on the ground. Aloha…RH