What's faster?

General Discussion
1

After reading the article on Greenough in the latest Surfers Path, I was wondering a couple things

  1. What is the fastest surf craft? Is it a hard stand up, or a sponge/body board, a knee board, an air mat, a butt-surfer??

  2. Why/how can an air mat do what it does? And could this feature(s) be integrated into a stand up? i.e. You know how a Zodiac/Avon type boat has the hard inner fiberglass shell surrounded by the air bladders? What if you had something like a hard deck and rails with an air bladder as the hull? I ask not knowing what even makes a mat do what it does. And yes I have ridden a mat. But obviously not enough to know why it works. A buddy of mine rides them and has one of Dales as well as makes his own.

2

Trouble with fast crafts is you need waves to match, otherwise you’re trying to turn back a board that is not made to turn…lousy board for the waves.

Just how to measure speed?

Pure MPH is not important, as it’s proven that every board currently ridden is fast enough to make the waves, given a good pilot.

Speed means sailing in a straight beeline. Is that remotely close to fun? Does your waves warrant running out for the shoulder every time?

Or does your waves want you to rip bottom turns, aerial off the lips, tail gouging cutbacks into 180’s off the lip again?

Er… maybe you should ask the guys who surf Maalea Bay. They come closest to needing a fast board…narrow miniguns.

3

so far so good …

I hope THIS thread doesn’t degenerate from here into a mass debate .

ben

4

knee board is my geuss. but mats the one i have ridden at least ride with the wave sorta conrolling their own speed a bit, they never have to be sped up they will keep up with the wave one their own, tis is from personal expierence in waves that were fairly slow so i don’t know if this would apply to the others. bodyboards are by probably the slowest of the fore mentioned craft, other than bodysurfing that is but nothing is required vehicle wise for that, however a sponge does hae it’s strewnths, riding on an inverted face and control are all part of the equation, plus the fact that you can ride it standing kneeling prone butt dk .

5

You bring up a good point LeeDD. I guess what I am after is how can Greenough, Dale, and other experienced mat riders generate so much speed on a fricken pool toy? No offense meant Dale. It’s just that it seems so diametrically opposed to what is common conceptions for surf craft, atleast in my limited and ignorant understanding. I really want to know what the secret is that enables them to accelerate and ride like they do and know if that can be adapted to a stand up.

6

Anything with a natural flat rocker goes fast across the face of a wave, from lunch trays to mats to doors to surfboards.

Inflatables have the advantage of not only flat rocker, but ribs with channels to direct forward momentum.

Boogie boards make the fastest sections at Pipe or Shipsterns, so they’re fast enough, but they’re not always the fastest in flat sections where surfers bunnyhop.

Some very knowledgeable surfers say a Paipo board is the absolute fastest vehicle for wave riding, with a good pilot, of course.

7

Nothing is faster than a well designed short board. Nothing !

Consider the additional distance covered by a board turning all over the place to a board going in a straighter line on the same wave. Speed = distance / time. Time being a constant for any wave rode from point A to point B, covering greater distance due to maneuvering in and out of the pocket, up and down the face of the wave, INCREASES the distance thus a faster surfboard.

Granted short boards are difficult to ride, and can go to sleep or drain off their speed when riders fail to keep them in motion, but that does not discount the logic. A board that covers a greater distance in the same amount of time is faster.

That’s my 2 cents.

8

That’s what I was going to say LeeD. A paipo board is the fastest board I’ve had.

BTW - did you see my message about the fin? Wrong template, but EXACT same performance, you were right! The fin works great. :slight_smile: Thanks a ton.

Aloha

Bryan

9

aquafiend65,

Surf mats generate much of their own trim speed, but they can also carve hard rail turns, short or long arcs. The rider adds to that by squeezing and releasing the forward rails, as well as by subtle changes in body position. These actions increase or decrease the mat’s internal pressure which instantly affects the mat’s speed and control.

I’ve made and surfed them all kinds of ways… from heavy, stiff and bend-resistant, to ultralight, supple and highly flexible. The fastest lines have been with modern mats, running at low air pressures… the “magic towel” as named by George Greenough.

One of the ways surf mats achieve higher velocities is through balanced, neutral handling. Speed without control is useless, especially if a single vehicle is being aimed at a wide operating range of waves and surface conditions.

This type of equipment is literally created from the inside out, in three dimensions: length, width, thickness and internal structure… made more complex by having to allow for internal- external stresses, extreme flexibility and elasticity.

A really good surf mat is constantly adapting itself to the rider’s body, the wave face and its surface textures. The top and bottom surfaces react separately, like an independent suspension system. This adaptation involves significant changes to flexibility, malleability, length and width, profile thickness/taper, rocker, rail contours and buoyancy distribution.

Mat surfing has almost nothing in common with any other form of prone riding… either by handling, performance or sensation. For those who want to do aerials, drop-knee and tricks, bodyboards are the answer.

You’re right, in many ways modern mats are diametrically opposed to common conceptions for wave craft. In fact, for most new mat surfers there is a period of “unlearning”… especially perplexing (and humbling) because much of what they know as board riders has little application to mat surfing.

For some, a significant question eventually arises:

“If you want to go fast, why is it necessary to surf with a high center of gravity, a high visual perspective, high wind resistance, hard unyielding surfaces and minimal body contact with both conveyance and wave?”

George Greenough began trying to answer that question almost 50 years ago…

Yet, whether trimming or carving, mat surfing is about the pure feel… with velocity as the by-product:

“the glide, it’s the glide when fully engaged that is so intoxicating, hooking up to the curl line and becoming free flight personified… try for a couple years and you may get a day like today, with my friend Dave and I feeding our souls on the ripening fruits of our labors. Dave said, ''I got more ‘satisfaction pleasure’ in half the amount of time today… I surfed for twice as long yesterday on my favorite board, but I didn’t feel anywhere as good as I do now”

Ambrose Curry III of Kauai

The closer surf mats are to gossamer, nearly uninhibited,

almost ephemeral… the faster they go.

The wave is the master shaper.

10
Quote:

A really good surf mat is constantly adapting itself to the rider’s body, the wave face and its surface textures. The top and bottom surfaces react separately, like an independent suspension system. This adaptation involves significant changes to flexibility, malleability, length and width, profile thickness/taper, rocker, rail contours and buoyancy distribution.

============================

So then are you saying that one performance characteristc of a mat is that it absorbs a “bump” or “imperfection” ( forgive me Lord’ y’know what I mean) or rather adjusts itself to the undulating surface and therefore doesn’t experience as much resistance as does a “hard/solid/rigid board” which will slam into a bump or imperfection in the wave surface and experience more resistance?

11

Within the last couple years when I really started experimenting with my surfing, I have three kind of good wave craft scenarios that stick out in my mind. I have ridden one of dales mats in real good pushy head high-slightly overhead point waves, a flex spoon in long period solid overhead powerful point waves (last thurs the biggest i have had it in so far), and a 7-0 x 18.5 x 2 7/16 mini-gun 6+4 s glass deck 4+4 bottom sanded gloss standup in heavy midtide reef at 11 feet at 17 seconds, and anothertime same reef christmas day a year ago when the nearby (really nearby) buoy was 12 feet at 15 seconds…

The fastest I have ever (felt I’ve) gone (on a drop) was on the spoon on one of the bigger sets of that particular day. The drop wasn’t even really vertical, just a big pushy wall. The board rumbled on the drop and the wind blasted my face (it was glassy semi-calm) and I kinda out ran it before lining up doing a cuttie then lining up some top to bottoms way down the point. I surfed it poorly in my own opinion on that wave. It was more of a big semi-mush wall after the initial good (but not death vertical) drop.

There were also some waves that were the smaller gems of just a great pushing raceable wall where the 9 lbs of neutral floating/sensitive solid lam deck and dead straight fins/no rocker except when in a turn that I felt like I was just flying to the point where I was about airing and losing control on smallish ripple chop when going to turn to slow down. (probably pilot error as I dont surf it much)

The first thing that came to mind after that one flex spoon drop was how it reminded me of the feel of the mat (exhileration/acceleration) on smaller waves (about head high and good as opposed to twice as big). I mean this spoon is roughly 1/16" to 1/8 at thickest of solid glass under the knees and its sensitive (the rumbling flexing ripple feel on the drop acceleration) but the mat just takes that concept to even higher sensitive/wave shaped levels.

Allowing a similar feel on lesser waves.

Because of this I would say that the mat would’ve been faster in the same situation.

The standup scenario was exhilerating heart in the throat, but more because of the arm paddling timing of getting up for the drop…the feeling when standing and riding/pumping wasn’t comparable (in a relative sense removed) and I didn’t go as far out on the flats effortlessly. Though on some bottom turns and cutbacks when you are in that sweet spot, that push and acceleration from a good board does feel good and thats what keeps me surfing standup still. You know, the cutbacks that at the end they feel so good you close your eyes, droop your head, and your arms/torso/hips feel ‘relaxed’ at the apex before bringing it back around down the line…

Tow-ins go fastest, I mean jetskis, I mean speed boats, I mean fighter jets. Speed isn’t as important as the big picture of the FEEL. Just a kid’s opinion.

12

Greenough said he preferred the kneeboard for it’s lower center of riding, where your eyes are like go cart riding, in a vehicle that still turns well and gives the feeling of surfing.

When you stand up, of course the feeling is not as exciting.

Mats, your eyes are 12" from the water.

Only way to tell is to ride semi closed out waves, like Maalea Bay.

Paipo still wins, after everyone has their chance to shine.

13

Yeah I gotta surf one of those someday. I’ve examined one before (hawaiian paipo) it was glass and the front 2/3rd was pretty noticable hull that flowed to flat out that weird wider rounded triangle rear portion.

14

Ok then next question; You’re stranded on a desert island w/ perfect surf.You have a choice of one vehicle to be stranded with…A mat, paipo, knee board, what ever…what would it be?

15

Hate to make a simple question complicated, but give us a brief overview of these perfect waves…

Roger

16

for me a flex spoon kneeboard. It tube rides great and its a perfect compromise between the pros/cons of standup vs prone surfing. Its neutral so u can duckdive (almost) anything. Hardly ever lose it leashless. Has decent feeling of wave intimacy. It trims it carves. Problem? It needs really excellent waves, I’ve surfed it probably 7 or 8 times in a year. And a couple of those times I SHOULDNT have. But your scenario has the perfect surf hehe

But if you’re going to be on the island for a LONG time the mat might be better to keep your interest. It would be way harder to surf consistently (at first and maybe for a long time) because there is so much ‘variability’ its more versatile/ a better challenge / keep you more interested depending on your mindset.

I surfed a day somewhere in december where there were like a half-dozen guys in a 4 mile stretch where you have your own peak driving through tube after tube, eventually pushing your personal takeoff spot deeper and deeper until you’re driving through foam sections inside the tube…I was surfed out after 2 and half hours and just stood there for 30 minutes watching perfect a-frame peaks peel and spit with no-one around.

Unfortunately (or furtunately if you’re not cynical) it seems human nature requires growth and learning/variety/challenge or even perfection becomes taken for granted (??)

cant give an opinion on a paipo never surfed one longboards are useless in good waves (tubes) (to me) and who gives a sh!t about a 6-2 thruster 10 off the lips and an air if noones watching to think you’re cool hahahaha

edit- (that dec. perfect day that almost got boring was on the flexy)

2nd edit- hmmmmmmmmmm though it would be a good challenge to master weird trick surfing on a thruster…i never really got consistent with airs…you sure I can’t take 3 boards to the desert isle?? haha

which takes us to pronemans question- perfect tubes? perfect wedge ramps? perfect pointwalls? all of them? ah the beauty of the subjectivity of surfing…we’re all different as long as we’re stoked and respectful its a-ok

17

In 1973 surfing interview with Steve Lis .Warren Bolster said," In waves up to ten feet ,Steve is the best and fastest waverider, I have EVER seen". I watched him in big jalama, on a 5ft 5 fish ,and I would still say he was the fastest I have ever seen still by far–just crazy ,bizarre speed. Mostly it looked like hydroplaning-skimming(only the fins touching the water)

18

The fastest surfer I know that surfs my break (Pleasure Point) is this guy Bud. He rides a modern shortboard. He’s a pudgy f**ker too… I don’t know how he goes so fast- at times I have literally ripped his boards out from under him and inspected them for rocket packs and such. Nothing there- A talented surfer on a modern shortboard can’t be beat. They fly… literally. They get going so fast that they just launch- we’ve all seen it a million times. Don’t lie to yourselves- it’s not just the craft, it’s the rider+craft package. -Carl

19

so what! I can (and have) busted airs on modern shortboards- along with small lost roundnose fish mostly what i surfed before I started experimenting with different sh!t and i still surf those boards on occasion. Most of that shit on smaller waves is by guys with stinkbug stances who pop the tail. They can do 3 foot backside ollies on the flats after dropping into a closeout. And that just multiplies when they’re in bigger/better waves.

No doubt talented riders can fly through some amazing sections on modern equipment but as always the real impressive stuff is in waves with power and shape. And there is a point where with certain long period waves at a certain size where I am fairly positive that an semi empty mat or no rocker spoon would beat them to the bottom on a straight drop (as for down the line yeah modern shorty could probly pump and keep up/catch). I know because I have surfed all 3 in the same surf. have you surfed a flex-spoon, regular pavel or romo quad, or mat in firing surf? I’ve aired over the back (with board) on waves on a KNEEBOARD on a 5 foot wave where i knocked the wind out of me hitting the water.

So dont lie to yourself carl- It’s not just the rider+craft package, its the rider+WAVE+craft package.

Sincerely,

a smart alec kid who’s possibly wrong in over his head mouthing off to a reputable ghost shaper but doesnt give a sh!t or like your cranky posts but is just cranky himself and curious to see your reaction which will probably be silence and a roll of the eyes haha

hehe I hate this side of surfing (the competitive dick measuring contest) but sometimes its interesting to throw up some devils advocate stuff/different ideas. All in good fun. Take care all.

20

Some surfcraft need to be constantly worked, and others effortlessly follow a wave’s natural lines. Some surfers like to constantly drive their boards, while others prefer a more relaxed style. Some waves encourage turning, and others require pure trim. Some situations demand a little of everything.

Happy is the surfer who successfully blends style, waves

and equipment.