I’d have to agree with those that said a Paipo board is the fastest surfing craft. Nothing beats it for going down the line, not even a shortboard. Not to mention nothing beats it getting back out to the line up either since you can cut through waves like a hot knife does through butter. That said, I’ve seen a lot of long boarders catch tubular waves.
Aloha,
Al
about ten posts back I started weaving a mat out of Ti leaf it was kinda coarse weave kinda herringbone like about 1 1/2 diamond shapes and tucked return rail/selvage about 2’’ thick neutral bouancy-flying towel profile ,
then I thought desert island
oops no chance no water
no Ti plant
man oh man
my mind is still the fastest
…ambrose…
anything that sets it free
with no dragging encumberences
gets it closer to it’s potential
what would be fastest in knee high rolling slop ???
what would be fastest in jaws tow in size waves ???
what would be fastest in clean 4 to 6 workable walls ???
what would be fastest in choppy down the line point breaks ???
what would be fastest in shifty peaky beach breaks ??
what would be fastest in shifty sloppy soft beach breaks ??
standard thruster , old log , mat, mush killer , tow board , performance longboard …
all styles of boards can be matched to different scenarios so not one board rules supreme …
know your quiver , understand the flow …
every dog has its day …
regards
BERT
My second question isn’t really about what’s faster ( niether, really was my first. It had more to do with how and why a mat works and can that be applied to a hard board?), it is if you could only ride one surfing vehicle for the rest of your life, what would it be? I’ts kinda like marriage…If you could only be with one girl for the rest of your life…
I guess I am wondering if anyone’s choice would really be a mat. And I don’t mean any disrespect to Dale or any mat riders (one of my best friends is a hardcore mat rider/maker), I ask cause I just don’t get it but the way it is talked about has got me really curios.
Whats faster than a speeding bullet?
Paint a big S on your board…that would do it, lol
George Greenough:
"There is a feeling to riding a mat that’s hard to explain. You can be on a two foot wave and it’s over your head. They’re good for tube riding on small waves because you are lying down. The sensation of going over texture is really neat. The speed is excellent, and the illusion of speed is also tremendous. Your face is eight inches off the water. Sometimes closer.
"A mat has a variable shape. You shouldn’t blow it up rock hard then go out and ride it. You run it softer in small waves so the corners will stretch out flatter and it will skim more, and a little harder in powerful waves so it will be stiffer and hold in more. You can fine tune the handling between rides by adding or letting out air. That’s an unbelieveable thing to be able to do. It’s like changing boards any time you feel like it.
"I ride my mat really soft. When the mat’s soft and you are running down the wave there’s very little water coming off the outer rail. You can see this in pictures. As you throw a mat into a turn you squeeze the front. That stiffens the mat up and it holds in through the turn. You learn how to squeeze the front when you want to hold in and release our grip when you want to break loose and skim.
“Mats are the most challenging things I’ve ever surfed on. I love the way they feel too ride, and they work in any kind of wave. Also, they’re very easy to transport. You can roll up two mats, a pair of fins and a wetsuit and put it into a handbag and carry it onto a plane. If I had to ride one thing out of all the surfing vehicles I have-- a mat would be my choice.”
Photo by Harold Ward - http://www.funfotoz.com/
“The funny thing about mats is that they’re the easiest thing to surf on a basic, beginner level, but they’re the hardest thing to surf on an advanced level. It takes 10 years of experience before you can drive them anywhere near their potential. I’ve been riding mats day-in and day-out for over 40 years, and I’m still learning things. I’ve never been bored riding a mat, ever. They’re just too challenging and too much fun…”
dog #1…‘’.woof woof ‘’
dog#2…‘’ reepf reepf ‘’
dog # 3 …‘’ grralph grralph’’
all went hunting together in the yard they got a nice fat squirl and #1 ate his favorite and #2 ate his favorite ,and # 3 polished his favorite all were full and went off to take a nap before playing in the afternoon sun before munchig on some bones before dark
aint it nice when all the dogs dont fight over the same parts of the carcass
mebee thats why the higher intelect imagines and pursues diversity. now that we concieve tha alteernative,thank ye st.george , perhaps mat 101 A
is a course worth signing up for …but deny the practical labratory and you wont get your certificate to hang behind the desk in the office
…ambrose …dean of registrars university of ignoramus de luz
hi Aquafiend
you have a good question.i think it’s a matter of what your really into.and that sometimes changes.have you ever taken two different kinds of wave riding vehicles to the beach?and then took one out and realized you want the other one more?i’m partial to mats but i also like longboards and before becoming aware of mats that’s the kind of board i wanted to ride,i never had a lot of success on smaller boards.i think i could be a one woman guy if her name was Selma…
so what! I can (and have) busted airs on modern shortboards- along with small lost roundnose fish mostly what i surfed before I started experimenting with different sh!t and i still surf those boards on occasion. Most of that shit on smaller waves is by guys with stinkbug stances who pop the tail. They can do 3 foot backside ollies on the flats after dropping into a closeout. And that just multiplies when they’re in bigger/better waves.
No doubt talented riders can fly through some amazing sections on modern equipment but as always the real impressive stuff is in waves with power and shape. And there is a point where with certain long period waves at a certain size where I am fairly positive that an semi empty mat or no rocker spoon would beat them to the bottom on a straight drop (as for down the line yeah modern shorty could probly pump and keep up/catch). I know because I have surfed all 3 in the same surf. have you surfed a flex-spoon, regular pavel or romo quad, or mat in firing surf? I’ve aired over the back (with board) on waves on a KNEEBOARD on a 5 foot wave where i knocked the wind out of me hitting the water.
So dont lie to yourself carl- It’s not just the rider+craft package, its the rider+WAVE+craft package.
Sincerely,
a smart alec kid who’s possibly wrong in over his head mouthing off to a reputable ghost shaper but doesnt give a sh!t or like your cranky posts but is just cranky himself and curious to see your reaction which will probably be silence and a roll of the eyes haha
hehe I hate this side of surfing (the competitive dick measuring contest) but sometimes its interesting to throw up some devils advocate stuff/different ideas. All in good fun. Take care all.
Obviously it’s the rider+WAVE+craft package… You’ll get no argument out of me. I seem to remember that somewhere in the scenario perfect surf was included. (See above posts) I was simply stating that at my local surfbreak the fastest surfer was so and so, and that he literally hauls ass. It’s absolutely incredible to watch- watching him surf always makes me remember how much untapped speed there is in the modern shortboard. This guy would blow you and your flexy spoons doors off- I’m serious, only a few people in this world can really make a modern shortboard truly haul ass- and when I see it done, I know there isn’t anything that can beat it. As for myself- the fastest I’ve ever gone has been on lis fish knock offs in small surf and on my 10’0" tri and 8’4" single gun in large surf. You wanna go fast? The bigger the wave- the faster you’re gunna go. Your little flexy kneeboard isn’t gunna cut it over 10 feet- same thing with the pavel fish… and the mat… that would be interesting. What will happen is you’ll be going so fast, and planing so well, that you are going to be unable to push your rail over and under the water to “set an edge” …and you’ll spin out. Thats where the modern shortboard has all of the wider planing surface boards beat- (Pavel, Lis, Fry fishes, all the same) the control- As you go faster, you can keep pumping- working those “wings” (side fins) under your board to generate more and more speed… instead of just slipping along the surface trying to hold on. You say that the modern shortboarder could “probably pump and keep up/catch” you on your magic flexy spoon? …well, what if you had a shortboarder that could pump even harder than anything you’ve seen? Would he blow right by you like you were standing still? Being able to generate even more speed at high speeds is what truly separates modern shortboards from all other craft in my opinion. -Carl
No doubt the penny will eventually drop and people will actually start to measure speed via gps. Statements like “I know that no one can go faster than this guy at my local beach” would be so much more interesting if we had mph figures to go with them.
Noooooo, don’t start this again Emma!!!
cheers
Hicksy :-))
Question: what if you had a shortboarder that could pump even harder than anything you’ve seen?
Answer: Call the zoo. Tellum you’ve just spotted a monkey with his ass on fire.
It hasn’t even begun yet. Take cover!
But seriously it would be a bit of fun to measure your speed now wouldn’t it?
I hope THIS thread doesn’t degenerate from here into a mass debate .
ben
as I was saying …
[some threads are MADE to be ignored ]
and so they asked the Lady Aster
at the races at the Churchill Downs
what grand Dame is the faster
Its plain to me.
and its plain to see
that the fist one round
that wins the pound
at the races at the Churchill Downs
Now I may be speaking like a fool
carving gargoyles with a blunted tool
but it seems to me
to measure speed
whats lacking is
a fixed course tis
the elemental feature
to satiate tthe creature
that wishes
to be the fastest
of fishes
in nature the fastest of fishes
devours every thing else slower
what a digestive burden
…ambrose…some times you too might say , WHAT DID I JUST EAT ,and know the weight of the cross on the greatest predator
In the video Sprout, the surfers ride a wide variety of surf craft. Shortboards (which do in fact include single and multiple fin boards from 6’0"- to 9’6"+), fish, longboards, and mats. Dave Rastovich rides one of Dale’s mats in one foot onshore crap. When the surf gets serious - when speed is essential he puts the mat away and steps onto a more appropriate surfboard.
The theme of this video is the variety of surf craft available to all of us and the tolerance to recognize that all these craft will bring joy to the rider.
Dale should be proud and excited by the versatility and fun of riding one of his mats. But lets be realistic here ! Is anyone going faster than a tow surfer on a bowling 40 foot face at Peahi, Mavericks, or Pescadero. Is anyone riding a mat at 10 x 10 Teahupo’o. And what are they riding - a very specific “shortboard” design. Mat ? Paipo ? Fish ? Longboard ? I don’t think so. When Rastovich and Dan Malloy chose to ride double overhead Bawa bombs with alternative equipment they pull out two retro single fin semi guns by Gerry Lopez. That’s an example of being realistic and riding appropriate alternative surf craft.
As a footnote, my observations tell me that many threads on this surfboard design forum are a little too quick in their criticism of the modern shortboard and how it works. There is a wealth of very significant design elements in the modern shortboard and in all surf craft. A little open minded design cross pollination could be an asset to your next surf craft.
As long as someone thinks shortboards are not functional and to ride them you must have a stink bug - butt wiggling approach to riding waves (can someone please tell me why that seems to be the consensus opinion on the Swaylocks forum about shortboards) one fails to recognize the beauty, function, and synergy of the elements of their design.
Respectfully,
Steve Coletta
Steve,
On being realistic:
David is the first to admit he’s a relative newbie on surf mats.
It’s been my observation that a great many surfers are simply looking for things that are fun and challenging to ride in their local, everyday conditions… 1’ to 8’ waves, from flat onshore junk, to clean and hollow.
There is a growing hunger for alternatives to the modern shortboard.
For the vast majority of surfers, 40 foot faces at Peahi, double overhead Bawa bombs, Mavericks, Pescadero and 10 x 10 Teahupo’o are little more than fantasy entertainment.
Cross-pollinator, that’s me, guilty as charged and pleased to be smelling all the flowers whether old or new and watching surfcraft evolve is a constant fascination. The constant parade of new boards seem a series of experiments in the attempt to optimize performance in various wave conditions. What will generate maximum speed potential in 4 foot mush is pretty much worthless in double overhead barrels unless it’s a very unusual stick. I’m sure we’ll all agree that very versatile board is always a treasure.
My challenge these days is to shape a mid-length board (that’s what suits my style best) that will give me some serious paddle speed so I can get into waves very early and develope the speed that I need for a head high + wave that I know is going to jack up suddenly and gobble me up without it. A performance longboard handles the wave I’m ridding great but I’m up for the challenge on a shorter board and I will attempt to shape it myself. It’ll have to have immediate acceleration and a great amount of downline speed so rocker as always will have to be sweet but not excessive because it will cut down on trim speed. I know that as I relax the rocker I’ll loose some maneuverability but I don’t want to sacrifice any more than it have to. As we know any break can become full of variable sections as the wind condition and swell patterns change and without adequate rocker adjusting trim line at a crutial moment can’t be done quickly enough.
It seems that if I hold a little extra width in the nose of the board with a somewhat relaxed forward rocker will help with trim and paddling speed. I’m still undecided on what to do with the tail rocker and how work it in. I’ve sketched several templates and drawn the outline on the 8’7"R that I’ll be shaping the board out of and 8.0"x14.75"x21.25"x14.25" looks pretty close to what I want but I’m still scratching my head. I’d like the board to handle fairly good sized waves but I’m not going to be in anything with a face over 10 feet, that I’m pretty sure of. I’ll be diving into the project in a couple of weeks ~ can’t wait!
I know that there are many shapers here on the forum with the scope of what makes a surfboard work that reaches far beyond my present humble beginnings. An idea or three would be grand if you’re inclined to share any.
I figure talking about a specific board may facilite a greater understanding of “What’s Faster?” for all of us.
Speed without maneuverability ain’t worth much when it comes to surfboards but some of us can handle more maneuverability than others. For a young flexible athelete, I was once one, I concure with Cornelius. You just can’t bet a modern shortboard. but at 62 I’m not as flexible as I once was so regretfully I need more of a crutch. The challenges are still just as much fun though ~ maybe more.
Landlocked, Rich
P.S. How about that little blue fish in “Sprout”? Who was riding that thing?
I mean we’re talkin’ serious speed here.
It looked like the film was running at fast-forward! Wow!
Carl- mats don’t turn by having their rails pushed under the water to set an edge.
The tow argument actually brings up an interesting point of view. In order to test “what is faster” you could (in theory) grab run’s magic flexy spoon, one of Dales mats, and of course a wide variety Lis fish knock offs, and head down to the local lake and drag them behind a ski boat. Then we would see what is “faster.” We could drag Dale along on his mat until we got tired and then crank a nice hard turn at 30 mph… oops… no more Dale. After that we could move on to the Lis fishes… how fast do you think they could go? 15 mph? Oh oops, another hard turn… looks like the lis fishes are out of contention… What about Roy’s massive wood speed machines… think they could handle a turn at 5 mph? Personally… I’m bringing either a really pulled in shorty or a tow board… I’ll be having a blast… know why? Because at speed, the extra planing surface of any kind of wider board (Lis, Pavel Romo… whatever) becomes pointless because you can’t control it. And the mats… yeah they will haul ass… but so will an innertube… have fun keeping it under control though. -Carl