What's faster?

General Discussion
41

Dale. I would be proud of your skills - producing mats that ride well in a variety of conditions. They are a fine alternative surf craft.

I just don’t know how to respond, though, to the inference that I’m not being realistic. Read my previous posts with an open heart and an open mind and you’ll see my intent is not to discredit mats or any other surf craft. It’s simply to express my opinion about “what’s faster” and try to provide some accurate observations to back up that opinion.

The thread is about “What’s faster.” Whether the average Joe surfs extreme waves is another topic.

The fact that competent surfers choose to ride “shortboards” in demanding conditions confirms (for me) that those craft are the fastest and most reliable tool available.

Halcyon. That’s Dave Rastovich on the blue fish in Northern New South Wales. The board is either a Rich Pavel or a Van Straalen. Maybe a “quad” as opposed to “keel” fish. In addition to the footage in Sprout there is a nice sequence on pages 86 and 87 of the Surfer’s Journal, Volume thirteen, Number five. The same article has some great images of outstanding performance on fish.

In closing, I’m still curious about why there is so little support (and so much critcism) on this forum for the wide variety of shortboard designs - designs that can be modified to perform in 1 foot to 40 feet, 60 pound grom to 240 pound adult, beginner to pro. I may be wrong about this, but that seems pretty versatile to me.

Respectfully,

Steve Coletta

42

“What about Roy’s massive wood speed machines… think they could handle a turn at 50 mph?”

Carl, those big pintailed boards can handle turning at speed very nicely, thanks!

" . . .at speed, the extra planing surface of any kind of wider board (Lis, Pavel Romo… whatever) becomes pointless because you can’t control it"

Not true. A wider board is easy to control at speed if it is drawn into a fine pintail. It is the tail that gives good control.

“We could drag Dale along on his mat until we got tired and then crank a nice hard turn at 30 mph… oops… no more Dale. After that we could move on to the Lis fishes… how fast do you think they could go? 15 mph? Oh oops, another hard turn… looks like the lis fishes are out of contention…”

What’s all this “nice hard turn” stuff? All that is necessary for surfing fast is sufficient maneuverability for control and positioning on the wave. 'Hard turning" is not necessary.

Why tow boards up and down? That’s not surfing! Instead, just carry a tiny gps speed recorder.

Regards,

Emma Stewart (for Power Surfboards)

43

If you really want to know where my heart lies read the last sentences of both my first and third posts in this thread.

my smart ass earlier reply to you was half-joking mocking of your disrespect to Liquid and others. They are entitled to their opinions which I am sure they derived from their experiences. It doesn’t mean anyones lieing to themselves. Theres certainly no lack of exposure to the style of surfing you speak of, but have YOU had good exposure to the styles/occurences THEY speak of?

I was honest with what I have felt/accomplished and stand by it as my experience as small/meaningless as that may be.

There are so many infinite factors involved in surfing, posts like these crack me up.

I thought very similar to you when I was younger (i’m 24 now) but instead of opening my mouth I got/made the craft in question and surfed it for about 8 months-a year in lots of conditions.

I found that there is a LOT of potential in the different craft I spoke about that is unknown/untapped and certainly unpublished. And I also found that there are people with way more experience/credibility than me (and possibly YOU) that feel similarly!

Of course there are surfers that can blow by me, just as I can blow by a bunch myself! Everything is relative and we all have our place.

Dunno about a well made kneeboard giving in a turn so easily…as long its SMOOTH/glassy you’re so low and stable (+ outside rail grab/inside hand lean pivot point)how could it give before a standups legs would buckle (??) Mats probly take that even further but I need way more practice to understand the hints of things I have already felt in them.

Towing behind just takes away the whole point of an efficient wave catching/surfing craft to me *but i guess you could still learn stuff.

And ‘magic spoon’? heh that thing is a friggin monstrosity but in certain times and places it works and feels good *(a big semi-smooth powerful workable 100 yard point wall - I guarantee you would get going fast enough to have an ear to ear grin and be shaking when you kick out and air over the back) . You should make yourself one with what you know/your ideas i’m sure it will be cleaner than mine. Take care

edit* additions

44

Steve,

Please… no disrespect intended.

Perhaps the “What’s faster?” question can be looked at from different perspectives?

What size and type of wave? What rider? Under what conditions?

Waves are ridden standing, kneeling, prone and sitting.

If the question is defined by the highest possible speed, then tow-in surfing (standing) on the largest waves is the obvious answer.

Is “the fastest” defined by the shortest distance between two points, i.e. a straight line? Or by the total area covered?

Some surfing equipment functions best in smooth, hollow waves within a fairly narrow size range, while others handle a broad spectrum of waves and surface conditions.

Some boards need to be constantly pushed by the rider to maintain and generate speed… others draw most of their speed from the wave itself.

For any number of reasons many surfers settle for a happy medium between the two.

I suspect for most surfers, such questions have little relevance.

45

i hate it when surfing begins to look alot like politics.

46

“In closing, I’m still curious about why there is so little support (and so much critcism) on this forum for the wide variety of shortboard designs - designs that can be modified to perform in 1 foot to 40 feet, 60 pound grom to 240 pound adult, beginner to pro. I may be wrong about this, but that seems pretty versatile to me”

Now this an assumptive attempt at answering a good question (as I’m not a mind reader who’s speaking for everyone):

I don’t think anyones really doubting the validity of the modern shortboard - you’re right they are extremely versatile and simply work for a certain style of riding. I still enjoy riding them 50 percent of the time myself- that used to be 80, and before that 100!

I’m just curious about why there is so little support (and so much critcism) in the mainstream surf media and contests for the wide variety of OTHER surfcraft designs - designs that can be modified to perform in 1 foot to 40 feet, 60 pound grom to 240 pound adult, beginner to pro.

Oh thats right because those entities/industries are profit driven (some of the companies MEGA profit driven) and need a widespread common demographic to sell to.

I may be wrong about this, but I think there is potential for positive change/advancement someday past the modern shortboard (as we know it). At least the failure/learning along the way is pure and fun! But you know what would be the best? In addition to purchasing proven boards/craft from good shapers, surfers got more into shaping their OWN boards with their OWN ideas and finding there is more to surfing than being the fastest most agressive guy out there on a modern shape!

Some honest questions Mr. Coletta…you’re totally content with surfing just a modern shortboard? Is that what you’ve gone your fastest on? It keeps you stoked/interested in the water enough? Just curious as to what you’ve been surfing lately…

With respect,

An Anonymous surfer

47

Hey Steve -Welcome, and thanks for getting in on the discussion. I for one am sorta with you. I have one board, a “modern” semi-gun, 8’x18"x2.5" nose and tail @ 13.5" and lots of rocker, 8" nose 4" tail - Anyway, I like it 'cuz I know it will work in all conditions I will encounter and take on.

48

Hi run,

I’m glad to answer those questions. Thanks for the opportunity.

[=1][ 3]you’re totally content with surfing just a modern shortboard?[/][/]

Although I ride other types of boards and really really enjoy body surfing, yes, I’m totally content to ride a modern shortboard. It’s such a challenge and I know I’ll never get it right so I just keep coming back for more. The 9 6 Bing / Takayama from my childhood, all 30 pounds of old foam, resin, and glass still gets a little attention when it’s flat for weeks on end in our summer.

[=1][ 3]is that what you’ve gone your fastest on?[/][/]

Absolutely !!! Thanks to the quality and power of some wave once upon a time.

[=1][ 3]It keeps you stoked/interested in the water enough?[/][/]

Probably more stoked than I should be. It’s really fortunate that I get to spend quite a bit of time in the water.

[=1][ 3]Just curious as to what you’ve been surfing lately.[/][/]

A 6 2 thumbtail, a 6 3 3/4 thumbtail, and a 7 1 1/2 round pin last week, the 6 3 3/4 this week, the 6 2 from September 1 to November 30, the 7 1 1/2 most of December except from Christmas to New Years when I was riding a 6 8 swallow. In January I only got to surf the first week on a cool 6 4 swallow before injuring my ribs and sitting out 3 weeks. I think the 7 1 1/2 the last week of February and first couple of significant swells in March. Sorry for the long answer. I couldn’t help myself.

With regard to the lack of support for and critcism of alternative surf craft in mainstream surf media and contests. It’s probably a good idea to look at the media and contests as two very different entities uncomfortably joined by the sport and culture of surfing and the business of surfing.

I’d like to preface these comments. Although I am a shaper and businessman I’m not thrilled by the surf media or surf industry. I’m just not part of their target demography. My life’s been spent shaping surfboards (what a fortunate way to provide for my family) and going surfing. The media is driven by it’s audience and it’s advertisers (their 2 primary sources of revenue.) I believe the media would be ideal if it was documentary in nature, driven by and a reflection of the culture and the sport. That said it seems the surf media actually features a variety of surfboards. Certainly not all inclusive. We don’t see much editorial content or advertisements about mats, paipos, bodyboards, or kneeboards, but fish, longboards, funboards, hybrids are seen and the coverage is generally positive.

The Surfer’s Journal is an outstanding exception to typical surf media. You won’t have to look far to see every surf craft imaginable - mainstream to alternative - Pluskunas’, Greenough’s, Laird Hamilton’s, Pat Curren’s, Yater’s, Merrick’s, Arakawa’s, and probably Dale Solomon’s as well. (And Pezman only publishes half the issues those other guys are printing every year.)

Regarding contests, or more specifically ASP contests. The professional surfers in the ASP and the administration of the ASP work closely to develop a criteria, agreed upon by all parties involved, to determine which surfers receive the highest scores in any situation. This criteria’s sole purpose is to provide as objective of a result as possible for those involved. It’s important to note that this criteria does not have to be a reflection on good surfing throughout surf culture. We’re all entitled to come to our own conclusion about what is good surfing. For most of us good surfing is about having fun. It’s about living in those magic moments and coming back for more and more and more. Nonetheless it’s pretty difficult to surf to the ASP’s criteria on alternative surf craft. Please undertand that I’m not saying alternative surf craft aren’t relevant. They’re just not designed to do the surfing that’s done on that tour.

On your vision - you’re not speculating when you imagine something after the modern shortboard. It’s inevitable. And you never know what or when.

Those type of quantum or threshold steps in the evolution of surfboards are greatly enhanced when we all include in our considerations the pros and cons of all surf craft, excluding no design because of personal prejudice.

Respectfully,

Steve Coletta

By the way. I can never figure out why some post anonymously and others post with a signature or provide personal info in their user profile. If it’s for personal security on line that’s reasonable, but otherwise don’t be afraid to put your name to your opinion. No judgements intended there - just an observation.[=1][ 3][/][/]

[=1][ 3]

[/][/]

49

Right on Dale !!!

SC

50

surfboards are so much like women. i like mine easy and forgiving.

51
Quote:

The thread is about “What’s faster.”

No, not really. The question was presented like that as an intro into what makes a mat tick. The reality is that a mat is so totally different than all other surf craft that, in comparing to other vehicles, I want to understand what are the dynamics that make a bag of air able to be a high performance vehicle. There is no denying that they are. My question is how/why? Next question is can these attributes be applied to other surf craft? i.e. stand-up boards!

52

There’s objective speed and then there’s subjective speed. This thread has addressed the former (objective) and neglected the latter (subjective speed).

What do I mean by subjective speed? Consider two surfers traveling along the same wave at exactly the same speed. One on a mat with his/her face only inches from the wave’s surface, the other a standup.

Now which surfer do you think is going to FEEL like they are going faster, whether they actually are or not?

So that surfer pumping on a thruster may FEEL like he/she is going faster, but are they really? Who knows…

In addition, there’s something to be said for ECONOMY OF MOTION. (Anyone familiar with the martial arts will know the truth contained in this statement).

Check out a jet liner high up in the sky. Looks like it’s barely moving, yet it’s probably traveling at about 600 mph.

As Einstein so aptly demonstrated, it’s all RELATIVE! Ride whatever gives you the greatest thrill!

A word regarding surf contests: They have little or nothing to do with the real world of surfing most of us live in. Surf contests are all about MONEY and PROMOTING PRODUCTS!

Although some innovative surfing can result from contests, that is not their goal. Competitive surfing has three simple goals: 1. sell an image, 2. sell a product, 2. sell yourself (i.e, become or remain a pro surfer).

The corporate/commercial interests that promote surf contests are not interested in progressive surfing or alternative surfcraft. They want to keep it all within nice safe boundaries that they can easily manipulate and control, and that involves both the surfers and the products they push. (Wasn’t there some kind of rebellion within the ranks of competive surfers a few years back which had to do with the kinds of surf venues contests took place in?)

IMHO, the reason why alternative surf craft are not promoted in the competitive surfing world is not because they somehow don’t confrom to a set of standard rules, but rather precisely because the rules are set up to exclude them in the first place!

On the whole, however, this is probably all to the good, as competitive surfing tends to breed conformity and thus sterilize minds of any and all original thought and/or ideas!

53

wERD :slight_smile:

54
Quote:
So that surfer pumping on a thruster may FEEL like he/she is going faster, but are they really? Who knows...

I’m quite certain that it is actually the Mat surfer who will FEEL like they are going faster. That’s what Greenough means by perception of speed. It’s like driving a go-cart with your but inches off the ground: 30mph feels faster than 100mph in a luxury car.

This speed question is pretty silly. Everyone is defining their own wave shapes and sizes and so we’re not going to come to any similar conditions.

I figure the fastest board is simply the one that allows you to paddle into the biggest wave. I don’t know how big a wave one can swim into on a mat so I can’t say if they are ever going to go as fast as someone on a big gun on a really big wave. (i’m purposefully ignoring tow-in ‘surfing’).

Now if you want to talk about the surf craft with the fastest acceleration in the normal knee to head-high waves that I bet are most common for nearly all of us, then I guess we’ll have to have a wiggle-off between a fish and a asp thruster… with gps strap ons.

55

Last September, while skipping work, I paddled out at the Boost Mobile Pro at Lowers to surf and watch the semifinals and final. I literally sat on the edge of the contest area, riding my six foot fish (thanks Steve Clark) and getting all the overhead waves I wanted, nobody else out. Nobody!

Directly to the south, about thirty yards, was a lifeguard boat with a couple guys who I chatted with inbetween sets. They were watching to make sure I didn’t go into the zone. I was their only threat, so they had it easy. When sets came, they would gun for the horizon and I would catch a couple.

To the north were the last four guys in the contest, taking off on the peak. It was about six to eight feet, on the face, where I was sitting and I was LOVING it. It was ten foot on the peak at Lowers.

What I saw blew my mind. Sections that were a solid ten yards long were no obstacles for these guys. They were so fast. They were fast on the drop. They had learned a long time ago that a turn should PROPEL the surfer to an even faster speed, so as they did maneuvers they just got faster and faster. Most turns I make compromise speed. In fact, only on a fish do I sometimes see an increase in speed on a turn.

But those pros had a command of their equipment, and were the fastest people I had ever seen surf a wave, and that is why they are on the elite pro tour. Makes sense to me.

But the fastest I ever went had nothing to do with the board. It was the wave. Sunset Beach. I had always heard about the noises surfboards can make at high speeds, but until last November I had never heard them. That was the first time I HEARD a turn. Sounded just like the turns on a snowboard from the light chop and the speed of the board. Very cool.

56

Amazing. I started this thread but my questions are being ignored. I refuse to start a new thread/post as it will, undoubtedly degenerate into part II of this one.

Sooooooooooooo, I will continue to ask till someone acknowledges…

What makes a mat tick (opperate at performance levels equal to or, allegedy, above other surf craft) and can these attributes be applied to other types of stand-up surf craft?

57

aquafiend65,

The science of how and why a surf mat works is a mystery to me.

In practical terms, mats are a variable air interface between a prone human body and wave face.

Speaking of my current surf mats: non-permeable mil-spec quality, high strength-to-weight ratio polyurethane and nylon materials - specific exterior and internal designs - extreme flexibility and suppleness - elasticity - very light weight - variable air pressure and buoyancy distribution - high temp welded seams - bottom and rail surfaces that are very smooth, yet rough enough to hold a film of water - parabolic corner curves - pre-tensioned internal structures designed to increase or decrease “breathing” between air chambers - nonskid deck application - valve design, etc.

The higher the air pressure, the heavier the materials, the more a surf mat assumes the performance and feel of a solid object. The closer it comes to being a solid object (with round 50/50 rails), the more inefficient and unresponsive it’s handling, feel and performance, i.e. the mat cannot properly adapt its shape in response to the curves of the wave face, or its surface textures.

For an inflatable to comfortably support a standing rider, it must be longer and more buoyant than a surf mat. The longer an inflatable, the stiffer it has to be to properly distribute rider weight, either by increased internal pressure or an attached solid/semi-flexible deck panel… or also an attached bottom panel, which is more appropriate for the attachment of fin(s). The higher the air pressure, the heavier and more durable the inflatable materials (internal and external) needed to contain the stress of higher psi. The harder the semi-flexible attached deck panel, the more point loading/friction problems occur between inflatable deck material and solid deck panel… necessitating the addition of soft transition areas, which add more weight. The perimeter of deck panel is either sealed to inflatable deck material, or attached without seal. Without a sealed perimeter, quick drainage of trapped deck water must be allowed. Excess water trapped between deck panel and inflatable deck material adds more weight. If water can quickly drain from under the deck panel, the force of onrushing (exterior) water can destroy the attachment of deck panel to inflatable deck material.

In conclusion, it’s technically possible to create an inflatable with adequate buoyancy and firmness for use by a standing surfer. But the design, materials and characteristics that define a modern surf mat are in direct opposition to an inflatable surfboard.

There’s a lot more involved… but I hope this has been helpful.

6’-6" x 2lb.3oz. prototype inflatable tested in Hawaii

58

ok no more riddles ,obviously no one equated down the line choppy point break with the mat …

as has been already alluded to , most surfcraft being ridden today have there strengths and weaknesses when it comes to generating speed or keeping speed …

lets look at the factors that generate speed and also the factors that create drag …

ok where does our speed on a wave come from ???

1 the push of the wave …

2 gravity , in the form of potential energy …

3 rider input , combined with efficient design …

so on one hand we have energy going in to the equation …

and on the other hand we have energy going out …

what causes drag ??

1 inefficient design (this can be any number of curves that create drag )…

2 viscous drag or surface friction …

3 vector forces in the form of chops or boils and gurgles or mutating sections on the face of the wave , these will exert forces on our boards in directions other than the direction we want to go …

(as an example if were on our bike a cross wind still takes more effort to deal with and will slow us down )

ok so without going into all the reasons why some boards are faster than others in specific conditions, lets talk mat , the good the bad and the ugly …

lets take two craft , a mat and a hard boogie board of similar size , so they both have the same surface area …

if one is flat and the other has rocker , flat will be faster with no rider effort , so there design plays a role …

lets say they both have the same bottom curve and area , then given the same wave and power they should do about the same speed , having equal amounts of viscous drag working against them …

ok so weve eliminated viscous drag and inefficient design …

whats left ??

vector forces , other forces acting on an object in directions other than the direction we want to go in …

now we see the link between the benifits of a flexible bottom and a hard bottom , between materials that while still holding form and overall structural integrity can also absorb impact and negative forces without transfering them to the main body of the rider or craft …

while the mat is the perfect example to use in this case , this principal applies to all surf craft …

every bump or chop we hit on a wave will exert some force , thats why superstiff boards with carbon or honeycomb will feel every bump , the materials transfer energy really well , the chops or bumps we hit will actually slow us down (provable by vector calculations )

a mat will not transfer the full force of the chop right thru the craft to the rider , so by absorbing impact it also weakens the negative vector forces working to slow us down …

now im going to remove one of the greatest myths in surfboard design while on the same subject …

everyone always trys to tell me that a light board doesnt work in big waves with chop …

then people say if you go to light a board doesnt work in any waves …

if we go to light with conventional materials , the board loses the ability to recover quickly after weve flexed it , so the problem with to light is really to rubbery …the board loses drive and projection out of turns giving a sensation of lost momentum …

ok so we need some stiffness , but go to stiff and it feels every bump and slows us down and throws us off in big waves …

so what we really want is a board that has stiffness when were surfing on the flat , but the bottom is flexible enough to distort and absorb heavy impacts (like someone jumping on it ,joke) or hitting chops …

but when we do load hard into a rail turn and the board does bend , we dont want it to flop and not twang back , thats when we want it to recover quickly with force , to spring us out of a turn …

both of those principles have nothing to do with the weight of the board and everything to do with transfering needed or useful energy and absorbing or not transfering negative energy …

now i was going to tell a team rider story from a few days back , i will shorten it …

he was on a super light longboard in howling cross shore large choppy surf , with the wind blowing into his face as he rode the waves … everyone laughed and said he would bomb out first coz he had the worst board for the conditions …he won …

everyone had to endure chop (negative vector forces) his board was better equiped to deal with chop (flexible bottom )…

then there was the wind , the other guys had to deal with the wind and the weight of there boards , he just had to deal with the wind …

i know for a fact greg knows exactly what im talking about …

hard decks flexible bottoms …

look past the obvious …

mats deal with chop better than anything …

mats are the fastest in certain conditions and its provable mathmatically by using vector calculations …

ok aqua …

sit on that one for a while , it all falls into place eventually …

regards

BERT

59
Quote:
surfboards are so much like women. i like mine easy and forgiving.

And you can get in a lot of trouble for checking out a lighter weight foreign one.

Dale, you use hypalon? With the heat welding, I assumed you were using fabric-reinforced PVC like the SOTAR guys. How much gluing do you still do - or did you do before - compared to the heat? Do you custom make your own valves too?

60

an interesting perspective.

there’s also the difference between fast and quick.

fast relates to top end.

quick relates to acceleration.

the difference between a dragster and a world land speed record vehicle.

subjectively, a quick board will also feel fast. what’s a quick board? a 22" wide modern 3 fin fish would be very quick on a 4 foot a-frame. but it’s top end will be limited.

a full gun might not feel as quick in its initial acceleration off the turn, but its objective eventual top speed would be higher than the above mentioned fish, would it not?

whats faster? what feels faster?

the objective question can be dealt with objectively for any given day at any given wave site under any given conditions, also given appropriate measuring devices and quantified for subtle factors such as how much more tired (or stoked) the rider is after 1,2,3,4, hours.

subjectively: i don’t know? maybe how high off the back of your neck your hair lifts in the offshore/drop/first turn acceleration/linedupwall/inthe pocket/tube.