What's your take on FCS FUSION PLUGS?

General Discussion
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actually fcs plugs are a ripoff price really. they are missing the point. they should be giving the plugs away and selling the fins

+1 insightful

and they probably would if they didn’t have such a massive market penetration already. Currently though I would imagine such a move from them would only cost them money for a the small market share they still stand to gain.

the lesson here is for the other fin box guys…

62

you can get raptor plugs for a third of the price and the fin is far more solid in the slot

easy conversion

huies does a lot of raptor and i will as well… when i get more of a name

at the moment i use fcs as a selling point but i wouldnt bother if i was more established

63
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actually fcs plugs are a ripoff price really. they are missing the point. they should be giving the plugs away and selling the fins

+1 insightful

and they probably would if they didn’t have such a massive market penetration already. Currently though I would imagine such a move from them would only cost them money for a the small market share they still stand to gain.

the lesson here is for the other fin box guys…

Dave,

The big issue is …do they give a F&%k about surfers or the industry that they monopolise.

Their silence to these posts suggests they don’t.

Rocky

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actually fcs plugs are a ripoff price really. they are missing the point. they should be giving the plugs away and selling the fins

+1 insightful

and they probably would if they didn’t have such a massive market penetration already. Currently though I would imagine such a move from them would only cost them money for a the small market share they still stand to gain.

the lesson here is for the other fin box guys…

Dave,

The big issue is …do they give a F&%k about surfers or the industry that they monopolise.

Their silence to these posts suggests they don’t.

Rocky

I can’t totally agree that because they don’t respond to our post on a forum that they don’t give a hoot. Though as a company who has minimums and won’t open up anyone with every part of their line…I would lean in that direction. However…they should be more creative with what they come up with to change the market. They have put their market with the shapers and shop owners. The shapers and shop owners don’t really want another fin system to contend with because they just got used to stocking FCS and Futures. I can see their point on this actually. How do they know the public will stand up and pay attention to a new system?

The bottom line with FCS is it’s still a fixed system and the other system thats not fixed did their homework and got a legal patent to protect themselves. Otherwise you might see fin systems that are similar in appearance to probox more than the Fusion is. Until they come up with something different that adds the adjustment component and doesn’t infringe on a patent…they have to sell what they already have as the state of the art. They have no choice.

FCS is not a bad system and it is the tops when it comes to distribution. It’s just that it’s not as good as it could be and some others have done their homework.

It remains to be seen whether one of the other systems can put themselves in the number one or two slot.

65
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Though as a company who has minimums and won’t open up anyone with every part of their line…I would lean in that direction.

As far as I know, here in the states there are no minimums required to buy FCS (there never has been for me). As for distribution, I believe any company selling wholesale will require, at a minimum, your retail tax ID.

66
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Breakout with side pressure tests:

Glassons = 18-22lbs.

Future = 25lbs.

Ofishl = 25lbs.

FCS plug type = 12lbs

probox = 28lbs.

LOKBOX = 60lbs.

Fu longbox = 35lbs.

Edge = 52lbs

FCS Fusion = 22lbs

Red-X = 135+lbs.

All tests were done independently with no outside money involvement. You’re welcome to do your own testing and post your results here.

It’s your choice.

I made mine.

Herb

Hey Herb, were the tests performed on the plug with a fin installed glassed into foam, or were they put in a vise or something to hold them in place? I’m just wondering what the damage is to the glassed surfboard if you apply the amount of pressure you did in your testing vs. having a fin fail or pop out like FCS and, I think, Lokbox is designed to do. I’m not faulting your testing at all, just thinking of the pros and cons of “too much” strength. It makes sense that Red-X would be that strong given the through to the deck installation of that system.

67

The tests were done on an old board (w/6oz.glassing) with boxes and fins installed.

The tests were done with a hydralic press and the board was placed in a vice for stability.

The results were ended on each subject went the fin or box failed to the point of un-usability.

In other words:Not just a crack or two,but to the point of unridebility.Not ness.broken out.

A few failed by fins snapping out/off first such as Red-X ,Edge,and Lokbox…excluding glass -ons of course.

All received box damage of some kind…FCS being the worst.

Red-X Receives the worst board damage at nearing 200lbs-psi. …the entire rail ripped away,but actually it was a rather easy repair considering the damage.

Herb

68

Good stuff Herb!

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As far as I know, here in the states there are no minimums required to buy FCS (there never has been for me). As for distribution, I believe any company selling wholesale will require, at a minimum, your retail tax ID.

Take my word for it. There is a $1000 minimum. Maybe it’s changed…" recently ". If you don’t believe me on distrubution…call Bilt in Melborne. I have not spoken with Ron about it. Ron is as good a guy as you get, but when times are tough…the big guys apply the pressure to thin out competition they feel is too close.

No matter what the excuse…minimums of $1000 is too much in the surf business as it is now. Not selling someone your accessories when you sell them fins is just plain B.S. I don’t have a major problem with them not selling ones or twos. Also…many of these companies frown on online businesses which are going to be much of the future. That is also protectionism. When you put something out for sale that is found everywhere it should be available to anyone that will pay and let the stores whether it be online or brick fight their own battles.

Right now factories, retail store and some shapers just don’t want to rock the boat because many are loaded up with FCS or Futures inventory and just don’t want another system because they want their job to remain easier and the profit the same or higher. Or they are getting royalties or are on the payroll of one of the two leaders in fin distribution in some way. It’s been steady for them for awhile. Now you have a few fin systems that are begining to make some headway with creative options for the end user and the threat to their market will become real in the next year or so.

Online at most of the major websites you see quite a few post on the various new fin systems. Most of it is postive and that will one day equal a market shrinking for one of the two leaders or both.

The excuse of shapers wanting to use their fin placement is fine…but if the customer wants a true custom and to experiment…he has to buy another board or find another shaper when an adjustible fin system will do. Some shapers get offended by folks questioning their placement…but thats just life in the custom business. I know some who refuse use other systems and thats fine also because they are being straight about it. In the end…what will drive it …is what the customer who is willing to part with his hard earned $495 to $1500 wants. BTW: China also wants things to remain the same so they don’t have to copy something new and can still wholesale their copies for $100.

The surf industry is still sticking to the Bro mentality. Bro never really existed anyway and is just a hold over from a bunch of idiots that got away with it because at the time they had high demand and little competition and anyone who had been in it longer than ten years could be a guru.

I don’t mean to beat this over the head or spam or cut on any other system out there who has also done their homework or paid their dues…but one of my reasons for begining to deal with pro box is because I have been familiar with Larry’s quality for almost 30 years and he has close to ten more than that in the business. That means something.

He has seen all of it come and go and helped design his share of it. It makes sense to give his company consideration with that background as I have a low tolerance for B.S., promises and hype. I don’t sell easy on new things. It took me awhile to consider futures after using exclusively FCS in our factory when it was open. Now the market is way more open with options than in 1997. Not because of the major shapers, retailers, glass factories or other dealers who usually don’t move until the public demands it…but because of a more open minded and better informed public is becoming less influenced by hype and more by actual funtion over fashion.

The companies I see in this hard market growing are the likes of Matt Calvani, Griffin, Liddle and Akil Aipa among others because these folk do things a bit different and offer things that have been thought out and are creative…not just the status quo. Sorry guys…the edit program will not let me indent paragraphs.

70

Solo,

as usual you have put forward a very clear summary of some of the issues.

It was 12 months ago that FCS launched Fusion at Surf Expo and ASR and used the Sways site for their free story/add on the virtues of the new system that would save the world.

Still many questions go unanswered. It is interesting this thread has been started by Foam EZ and if they don’t know what to think of Fusion as someone selling it, what is going on??

FCS does not appear to have booths at either Surf Expo or ASR this year and so your post highlights the ConFusion that will continue to exist while ever there is that smell of BS oozes from any surfing product that hides from scrutiny.

Rocky

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Solo,

as usual you have put forward a very clear summary of some of the issues.

It was 12 months ago that FCS launched Fusion at Surf Expo and ASR and used the Sways site for their free story/add on the virtues of the new system that would save the world.

Still many questions go unanswered. It is interesting this thread has been started by Foam EZ and if they don’t know what to think of Fusion as someone selling it, what is going on??

FCS does not appear to have booths at either Surf Expo or ASR this year and so your post highlights the ConFusion that will continue to exist while ever there is that smell of BS oozes from any surfing product that hides from scrutiny.

Rocky

I don’t think they really owe any of us an answer. They are just a business. But…I do wish the surfing public would wake up and start taking " more " notice of other options out there. The state of the art for the majority of board riders is still a design thats a slight more refined version of what Simon made in 1981 of Geoff’s outline.

There are other really good options, but the masses that created the industry were never really the core sub culture that gave surfing it’s attration to begin with, but opportunist who saw an opening. I miss the early culture of having to prove yourself in the line up and being cautious about new things until they proved themselves or were created by someone with the respect and time in to have his word count for something. I even miss the old outlaw culture before they attempted to sell nerd looks as surfer looks to make it all acceptable to the general public. Kind of like tame punk music. Which BTW came right along with the new surf culture.

It’s like many of the companies and magazines created a culture for every preppy, nerd and hard core pretender out there and sold it sucessfully to the larger American public as something worthwhile. Not that all surfers are that or believe in that…but look at how the junk is marketed, look at the ads how they make some of their pros dress up and pose for pictures. Still can’t get the image of Bruce Irons shooting up in a full page ad and dripping blood on a surfboard.

When your dealing with this mentality…you can’t expect too much common sense right away. There is hope out there…but it’s likely to be a few more years.

I miss the subculture that exist when proof in the water was what counted most

72

I don’t think they really owe any of us an answer. They are just a business.

Solo,

re your comment above, that would be true if they had not used sways to promote their product and then invite questions and then avoid ansering them and attacking those of us who challenged them. Also the business they run is the subject of many questions on sways which not only go unanswered here but according to quote herb from several posts before on this thread

“…more than I can say for FCS,who won’t even return my email questions.”

re your point re the public “taking more notice of other options out there”

What chance have they got when the board they buy has a fin system already fitted and the manufacturers themselves can’t work out what to believe or (as you suggested either paid/coerced) or too nervous of speaking out against the big brother power to make informed decisions?

At least Pro box and others make an effort to engage in debate and provide solid answers when asked. But trying to compete against a secretive powerful enforcer,even with a superior product, is near impossible unless we try and keep the playing field level. that will help Surfing.

Rocky

73
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I don’t think they really owe any of us an answer. They are just a business.

Solo,

re your comment above, that would be true if they had not used sways to promote their product and then invite questions and then avoid ansering them and attacking those of us who challenged them. Also the business they run is the subject of many questions on sways which not only go unanswered here but according to quote herb from several posts before on this thread

“…more than I can say for FCS,who won’t even return my email questions.”

re your point re the public “taking more notice of other options out there”

What chance have they got when the board they buy has a fin system already fitted and the manufacturers themselves can’t work out what to believe or (as you suggested either paid/coerced) or too nervous of speaking out against the big brother power to make informed decisions?

At least Pro box and others make an effort to engage in debate and provide solid answers when asked. But trying to compete against a secretive powerful enforcer,even with a superior product, is near impossible unless we try and keep the playing field level. that will help Surfing.

Rocky

I wasn’t scolding you or correcting you Rocky. I have heard enough of the big boys comments over the years. No need for much more discussion on it from their standpoint which doesn’t really change. They have fixed systems that most folks use right now and no real need to change drastically. Not only that…the other innovative systems have patents on their product so they can’t get something like those either. Maybe they will come up with the " most " innovative system eventually. I’ll give them credit if they do. Fusion is just more of the same. If you like the original product you should like fusion.

All businesses are secretive to a degree. Competitors in the industry are quick to copy other’s ideas.

I agree with a level playing field up to a point, but Probox, Lokbox, 4way, Red X and etc. will not rise or fall because of what FCS or futures does…but because of they run and market their own business and how well they get their message across. I think the biggest obstruction in their path is not FCS or Futures per say…but the shapers who either have deals with them or just don’t want to change. In the world of four fins and five fins…I don’t see why anyone would want a fixed system or one where the end user can’t make adjustments.

The big guys count on slow change, mass ignorance and market hype driven by magazines, pro sponsorship and creating an exclusive image that makes retailers go into a feeding frenzy to be the first one to get the latest. The more the small guys can’t have it…the more they want it.

Some small guys become big guys and when they do it with the help of another system in enough numbers…you soon have another system knocking on the door. Thats when the big guys begin to change. Either that or come up with better hype.

74

While it is easier to rout one hole and glue in the plug than drill two holes with the H pattern,

it’s a pain in the ass if using carbon fiber! Carbon fiber is too stiff to form around the bump.

Looks awful when you sand it down and the black surrounding isn’t perfect.

Don’t use if the board is anything but white.

Better system if colored lamination is the old FCS system. If in EPS and heat is an issue,

pre-drill oversized holes while still shaping; after template cut out, but before shaping so you

know where the fins will go. Pour in some two part foam. If you don’t like tan, add some

color. (Ryvec foam tint or just some white pigment). Install system as normal.

75

Everysurfer,

so have we got it right that your position is the 2 plugs are better than Fusion?

Rocky

76

I like the fusion install much more if the board is white.

If you are coloring the board or using carbon fiber, stay away from them.

If the blank is EPS and colored, oversize the holes in the blank, drill them all the way through

pre-foiling.

put some masking tape on the bottom, pour in a little colored 4 pound PU two part foam.

Shape the board as normal, and put the old FCS in the PU plug.

77

hey guys

did my first set of fusions yesterday in some old boards, to try the install out.

i checked out the official fcs fusion install vid a couple of times, to get it right… http://straightout.com/stream/fcsinstall01.wmv

so, went on doing it, but i found the football patches [if left just flat] dont wrap around the fusion at all

massive bubbles start reappearing around the little islands

used a couple of differentglass densities, from 2oz, to 10 oz, and found the lighter weaves to hold position pretty well, but the fatter weave, when saturated does pretty well too. used my fingers lots and press the glass down, and epoxy out… like i saw bammbamm do it, that was good, just playing it…

now, what should i do to get the install perfect, no bubbles, and flat result?

should i cut releave cuts into the oval patches where the islands go? or??

thanks a lot for some advice

Wouter

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Hey Wouter

Relief cuts are by far the easiest and most efficinet way to do the install

just do H shaped cuts and you will be fine.

Another option is vacuum press if you are into that kind of thing.

I still have a few sets that I am offloading for $5 a box if anyone is interested.

Just my 1.874 cents

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  Howzit solosurfer, I have to say that I have had an account with FCS fo over 10 years and when They had a warehouse on Oahu yes I paid shipping to Kauai. But since they shut down the warehouse on Oahu and everything is shipped from San Diego, there is no shjpping costs and they ship via UPS and I receive my products within a week of ordering. Do you have an account, if get one they have treated me great since the day I started working with them.Aloha,Kokua
80 
  How zit Herb I am going to send you a PM in a few minutes be sure to check it .Aloha,Kokua