I can’t help it if I know something you don’t know.
Maybe I should charge for that useful information. Whatever your rate is mine is double. No triple.
Better yet, you don’t have my permission to use my information.
As far as you are concerned endorsement automatically means big time.
There, happy?
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
oops started something then bailed
sorry guys.
well i did write a small essay on it but it got deleted and i don t want to write it again
but heres a story
one day out shopping in tokyo i was in a ski shop
i was wearing an old german army surplus jacket .it was really grungy and had holes .
i paid about 40 bucks aussie about 15 years ago and wore it alot .
it was basically stuffed .
anyway the shop assistant had to have it under any circunstances cause it was underground or something cool .so i swapped it for a brand new burton snowboarding jacket which would have cost me at least 300 bucks back in NZ
so SWEET. really scored on that deal …
sophisticated market yes or kinda crazy and unpredictable.
.anyway the amount of tossers on the ski fields makes me wonder about the future of surfing as a sport .it was always pretty grass roots where i came from .Id hate to see a surfbreak full of gear freak yuppies with attitudes to match.Thats the fear of a big name surf company selling out to the popouts, whatever the tech.yuppies buying the latest model every year and filling up the carparks with SUV,s, while im getting pulled up by the cops again in my bommy old mazda.
a guy riding a bic mal the other day asked me if my superlight balsa composite mal was one of those "OLD DUNGERS"so i jumped off it into deep water held it up with one hand and waved it about a bit and said “UHUH they dont make em like they used to…”
on a side note .environmental issue could be a big driving force in the jpanese market.altough the the beaches are pretty dirty ,i doubt that the surfers are the contributers …
I lived in Japan for the first half of the nineties. Based on my experience I’d endorse what Slim is saying about the Japanese market.
Having slept on it, now I think my problem was that I was trying to maintain grassroots underground level. Maybe I just wantd to think I could live the contradiction. maybe I was just living a lie.
Maintaining that level of underground grassroots cool
and supplying the market demand is contradictory because
of the level of hands on reqired to make and package an underground product. Once it goes into machine production, it’s no longer underground. That is where I think the difference is between underground and mainstream. Still just a guess though. Who knows where the real line is. Maybe it is differeent in every case or for every new product. Also missed the advertising boat. I made some mistakes.
The contradiction exists on so many levels. But mainly it was in my own head. I wanted success, but I didnt want to get big. I wanted big orders and was getting them, but putting them together was very monotonous boring tedious work. I need challenging work. I knew I needed to advertise, but feeding the mags made me want to hurl. Thre ewere other numerous peoblems I had no control over and also flat out accidents possibley the result of the pressure from all directions.
They say anyone can survive failure, but it is truly hard to survive success.
Anywho, anyone who has succeeded only to fail at surviving success and growth will understand. Maybe I’m still a little sensitive, but I thank everyone for allowing me to think out loud and my best regards to anyone who took a chance at giving the feedback. Parts of my mind re still an active hornets nest. Looking back I guess I should given advance warning in writing to my fellow Swaylockinas and even then then get a warning tatooed on my forehead. Hopefully the damage is not permanent enough to warrant that.
I don’t think the majority of surfbreaks will ever be full of sophisticated and discerning surfers. Sure, people of many races will buy endorsed equipment, and clothes, and shoes, and hats, and you will see many in the carparks.
Real surfing is still about getting in the water and catching waves, an activity which still scares a lot of people, even though they love the scene and the lifestyle.
Sadly they don’t know what they’re missing.
The question I have is, who will be doing the development of the new technologies? R & D is very expensive and time consuming, so will the major players be willing to develop new technologies, or simply license shapes to others in order to make short term gains. Looks like a history lesson in the making!
Good question Ken… It appears Nev, for one, will be sponsoring the R&D. Seems others should … why don’t they?
Read an interesting article by Gordon Clark recently that stated one of the advantages the imports have is that they all have engineers on staff while the typical surfboard business in the US and Aus doesn’t. Understanding simple composite engineering is an important aspect to advancing the sport. Some here have this basic understanding. In the upper echelon of board builders (the “leaders”) these basics are unknown, the reason why they don’t move forward. In some cases there are certain egocentricity’s that don’t allow these guys to hire someone who knows something they don’t. In other cases the ignorence of these basic’s does not allow them to see the value of this knowledge. In either case the sport suffers.
Then along comes a maverick who sees that moving forward might require more than one input. Watch Nev …
Unless they outlaw poly or what it’s made of, Epoxy nor any other high tech item will replace poly boards. New design is what has made the most changed in recent memory. The last major material change was from Balsa to foam. If epoxy or the new age stuff which has been around for awhile was going to replace it, poly it seems like it already would have.
Chinese and popouts will not replace handshapes for the same reason.
Instead, they have simply been woven into ever chaging and fadish fabric called the surf industry.
The latest major change has been back to older designs, not onward to modern tech.
And why would we all of a sudden be making older style boards? Because there is nothing new. Hasn’t been in almost 15 years. Is creativity gone? Only until we have materials that allow for a future.
Talk about fads, how about retro fishes. Poorly designed versions of boards that rode like crap 30 years ago. We did a reasonably good job in the 80’s at making twin fins work. Will Jobson then improved on those in the early 90’s. So along comes the latest twinnie fad and they go back to a design that SUCKED! With none of the design improvments that actually made them work!!!
It seems that epoxy would have overtaken polyester if it were indeed good enough? To bad almost NONE of today’s leading polyester board builders have taken an even reasonably close second look after so many of the earier problems have been solved. But how can they when they don’t own a glass shop??? Well that is accept in places where people obviously don’t know whats going on. Places like FL and TX and West OZ where epoxy is part of everyones daily routine. What could those kooks know?
I guess since there has been nothing new successfully introduced since urethane foam, there never will be! Hundreds of years from now and everyone will still be riding retro fishes from 1970. Close those eyes real tight … there couldn’t possibly be anything better than a good ole poly poopie. Except a Surftech?? Stick that head in the sand … Ride that Lawnboy …
Honestly, so much is out there for anyone willing to just look around. Hundreds of new materials, techniques and combinations all better than the status quo …
And why would we all of a sudden be making older style boards? Because there is nothing new. Hasn’t been in almost 15 years. Is creativity gone? Only until we have materials that allow for a future.
Talk about fads, how about retro fishes. Poorly designed versions of boards that rode like crap 30 years ago. We did a reasonably good job in the 80’s at making twin fins work. Will Jobson then improved on those in the early 90’s. So along comes the latest twinnie fad and they go back to a design that SUCKED! With none of the design improvments that actually made them work!!!
Beautiful…great post. I agree with you Greg. Retor Twinnies were crap when they were popular and still are. Same with Retro Singles. That crap did not work then and what makes it suck even worse today, is that we have designs that do work and can give you the same feeling and float as the retro junk.
My point is that the masses of surfers always think they know more than designers like yourself and others, because some magazine says so or one of their friends told them so, or even worse, one of the pros is riding one.
Here is a picture of the future:
Carbon Fiber vacume bagged surfboard by Steve Forstall. No the color is not painted on in any way. This thing is not only handshaped and available by custom order, it has all of the good qualities of being custom, all of the good qualities of Surf tech fake surfboard durability if glassed properly, and it can be painted any color you want without it being scraped off like a popout.
“The latest major change has been back to older designs, not onward to modern tech.”
Actually that was the second to last change. The latest change is going on right now.
Timmy Patterson just showed me his latest twin fin which is actually now his stock twin fin. Completely redesigned from the twin fin he was making 15 or 20 years ago. Modern shortboard type rails, modern bottom, computer cut, modern blank, redesigned fin template and 40z glassjob. The only thing old or retro about that board was the outline ( even that has been tweaked) and the fact that it has 2 fins(well actually he’s added a tiny trailer fin so disregard that as well). He also showed me a fish that he wants to make into a quad that had all the same above mentioned modernizations done to it. Matt Biolas is turning some of his MRs into quads as well and tweaking the shapes around a bit. Pavels Keel fish and quad fish have been going through constant streamlining over the last couple years. Tomorrow i’m going to see Chris Christenson who has 10 quad fishies waiting for me and he is asking for modern fins so he can experiment with the boards. Doc at Surf precriptions does a fish with a bit more modern outline, single foiled fins with some cant and toed in 3/16ths. The CI fish may be pretty beefy when they get over 5’10", but they also use single foiled fins toed in a 1/4" with cant and concaved bottoms. Rusty is doing a keel Fish called the Mod (modern) fish. Racey outline, sanded finish, 40z fins that have quite a bit of flex that are toed and canted. I have a 5’10 Jim Phillips quad fish with beaded foam glassed with RR resin that weighs 4 1/2 pounds. Even the Hobie guys are trying to spruce up their fish and make it work a bit better. The most “retro” mass produced fish out there right now is probably the Kane Gardens which still have straight up and down, double foiled wood fins that don’t flex and have very little toe in. Most others have moved on…
If you see a fish outline out there and just assume it’s a throwback to the board you had difficulty riding way back when, you should just look a little closer and you’ll see the changes. Calling them “old” designs isn’t very accurate.
BTW do any of those boards in epoxy and you knock off about 4 pounds of weight from what they were 30 years ago. That in itself is a major change IMHO. Also most of the boards i mentioned have way more modern rockers and bottoms (not dead flat) then they had back then which uh, cough cough…makes 'em work better!? Saying nobody is trying anything new is completely unfair to all those shapers mentioned. Sorry
Talk about fads, how about retro fishes. Poorly designed versions of boards that rode like crap 30 years ago. We did a reasonably good job in the 80's at making twin fins work. Will Jobson then improved on those in the early 90's. So along comes the latest twinnie fad and they go back to a design that SUCKED! With none of the design improvments that actually made them work!!!!!!
And yet these “sucky” boards are putting smiles on faces of surfers everywhere. Apparently, they do WORK, since the stoke is what it’s all about isn’t it? Or is it about some sort of measured performance on the wave, as measured by a top surfer who has conquered the ocean such that even pipeline is boring to him? that’s certainly one way to measure things, and perhaps to score high on this scale one needs a board made of new materials.
But it seems to me that most surfers out there aren’t really concerned with this sort of level of performance and are just out to catch waves, carve or trim down the line, and ride the nose or cutback or any of the things surfers have been doing for decades. They are interested in connecting to surfing’s history by riding boards of various shapes from various eras shaped by the famous shapers and don’t care if these shapers have any formal enginnering training or are just doing things how they always have done, the things that have brought stoke to thousands upon thousands of surfers over the years. If they could stoke guys in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s, there is no reason to doubt their boards won’t do the same well into the 2010s and beyond. No?
Good point slim, and your right. When i see real bad surfing on a fish it’s almost always one of the super retro version made the same way they were back then. The more modern versions are way easier to ride even for a beginner. Correct me if i’m wrong but even good surfers had trouble with those boards back then. So are the kooks just getting better these days or is it the boards? Because i see all those smiles too almost everyday and i’m also pretty sure that’s what its all about. How else do you explain all the shops doing so well with them at around $650? Part fad i’m sure, but enjoyment has a part in it as well. Today newport was double overhead barrels and it’s building as we speak. Good thing I had my retro thruster design from 1981.
double overhead barrels in Newport? oh man, you’re killing me! i thought i was lucky to get a few waist high waves yesterday up here. bring on those north swells, quick!
I love alot of the more moder versions of retro and keep in mind. Every single thing ever made works to some degree. It depends on what your after in your surfing. Also some of the older ideas and outlines have never been improved on. The problem I see with taking some of those older designs and saying your putting modern rails and stuff on them by utilizing where todays thrusters designs are today, really does not improve the designs at all. What made most of them magic was the float, the glide and the drive. I agree lowering the weight on some of them is an improvement. I think the so called Neo Twin fin Lost is doing by M.R. does not improve on his orginial design at all. It’s simply made to look more palatable to todays kids who think anything over 18.5’’ is too wide.
I still agree with Greg on the old school fish thing. We got off those and old pluggy singles for a reason. Mccoy/ M.R., Hurely and a host of others made twinnies that actually worked all around back then and are still valid designs, The first phase of thrusters to me is still modern, when put with modern foam or epoxy, and wide tailed singles with softer edges work great for singlefins today. I don’t see much point in riding a twinnie like an old school fish that was designed for a couple of moves, or a heavy longboard for beachbreaks, or a toothpick thruster for 180lbs intermediate surfer. Much of it is truly a fad.
I still love all the nice glasswork done on these old board copies though. It’s really really hard not to appreciate the craftsmanship on these and maybe that simple time is why many want to go back to.
After all, it is all about the feeling anyway…isn’t it?
Sorry but i have to disagree a bit. Gotta love the net! I started surfing in Greggs neck of the woods in central florida around '77 on singles and then onto twins, and eventually tri fins. Unfortunately nowadays my local spot that has the best waves is swamis. First few years i surfed all thrusters out there and didn’t get squat for waves. Nowadays i’ll surf it up to ten foot faces on a 6’0" pavel quad fish, and just because of its float and glide my wave count has tripled out there. I also make almost any section out there and end up doing some crazy fast floater in the kiddy bowl or backdoor the tube where i usually had already been closed out on, on the thruster. I’ve also done some of the best cutbacks in my life there on that board (my cutty is my strong point) and gotten spit out of countless barrels and cracked many a lip especially backside on the left believe it or not. The board has modern pinched rails so it rides the tube, and a double to single concave off the tail which is real skatey. I also own a completely retro fish and i haven’t ridden it in 2 years. You wouldn’t catch me dead out in those waves on that board. On the quad fish…no prob.
Wave count number slightly buffered by drop in factor. 
Greg re-thought and redid the fish 5 years ago.Totally tweaked eighties outline 90’s bottom and deck. MVGs on the tips of the tail. Favorite board ever. In EPS and RR epoxy. I still use it. There is supposedy a new one waiting for me in FL too:-) He can describe it better. I believe he did rather well with the model. Called it the TFS for Tuna Fin System. Everyone who tried it loved it. One guy, a former Pipe Master, blasted a 2’er on it.
Point is I look to Greg for leadership because chances are he did it five years ago. Five years is a long time. So long in fact that he’s over it years before anyone else is trying it. Kinda makes it hard to get any recognition though. But you know all that.
Recycling.
I always thought it was appropriate when ZZ Top realizing all their songs sounded similar to some degree and that they were recycling their standard chops, named their album Recycler. Hey why not? NO BS there:-)
Lol, no question Gregg is the man! What he was doing way back when with Bill Hartley was ahead of everyone. Was just trying to defend all the board guys out here a bit because they really are trying to step up quite a bit and make better boards. While epoxy certainly has it’s benefits, there can be more to making a “better” board than just construction methods.
Newport point this morning for your enjoyment
