Firewire in Asia take Two: Bert's boards made In Asia

Industry Talk
41

I see you are having a debate within yourself along with the obvious outside debate.

Very good. This is the result of some very big changes and trying to understand all of them I can see is troubling. It’s not easy. You are right to be conflicted. Because it does appear to be conflicting. I hold that the old terms are the cause not the reality.

First I’m glad you took my comment with the spirit it was offered. As I have already said a few times these are some confliciting times. And philosophies dont seem to be rationally cutting it. So maybe first we need to dispense with them. Then apply my Woody Allen maxim “Tradition is the illusion of permenance.” And from there we can begin.

Second. The industry model has already changed. We can face it or not. But the reality is that over 100,000 boards will be imported this year. Probalby more. A lot more. The damage to the so called traditional core of the industry is just beginning. Next add to that the Clark deal. Third add to this the debate over Poly v Epoxy and it’s easy to see why the industry is in shambles.

The preliminary results are coming in. I have heard from a reliable unnamed Locker source that orders for domestically shaped and produced boards are way down as of right now. Off from last years numbers. Does this mean that the orders are being filled by imports? That I don’t know.

Now, concerning Firewire and it’s owners, they are going to be building boards on shore both in OZ and the USA. This will put more pressure on other labels. But survival of one label is that labels responsibility. NO one elses. That is not Firewire’s problem. Just accept that as business. There are no hurt feelings in business. Good bad or indifferent do not enter into the scope of the business realm. What is bad for one is good for someone else. That is all that can be said about that.

Selling out? If making ones dream come true, to make a better board, on shore, and deliver it to the market is called selling out, then I guess everyone who has ever dreamed and succeeded has by that definition sold out. That would include everyone from Blake, and Simmons to Velzy and Merrick. Because that definiton means selling boards successfully is selling out. That would include the owners Inspired surfboards.

The only way to not sell out by that definition is to be the guy who shapes his own board in the backyard. Sell one board and then another and you have sold out.

I would rather not even talk about selling out. Because it’s like using the word Kook. I just don’t like it, because it reflects back poorly on the user more than it defines the other.

I would rather say, good luck with your surfbaord company and keep the home fires burning as long as you can. Because it’s not just guys like you, IT IS YOU, who is still shaping for your local scene.

42

the bottom line is, there will be jobs , not only for hands on crew but also knowledgable designers …

josh came to work with us , why?

he not only has a background building boards for the last 20 years , but he also learnt the art of digital design …

if you walk into sign or print shop these days , do you see crew with a pencil or doing colour seperations by hand , or are they using corel draw or illustrator ??

they still have design talent , they are still artists , but technology has improved the service they can offer , so now more of there skill goes towards what they do best while the labourious stuff is handled by printers , plotters , and computers …

the sad reality is , whole industries change as technology changes …

no matter what job you do its in your best interest to keep learning about whats coming and the latest developments …

if no one was trying to improve the current state , the whole pie would disappear overseas …for any industry to grow and survive in a competitive global market place , it has to progress …

drewtang , im no stranger to working night and day just to keep a business running …

im also no stranger to shutting up shop because of making mistakes …

my first business lasted 7 months before i pulled the pin and started again with a new plan , i started at age 19 with a lot of lessons to learn the hard way , blew 2 years of savings and a credit card , but i learnt a lot as well …

learnt enough to not make the same mistakes when i restarted in a different location …

at age 17 i had a goal in regards to my job , now its 20 years on and its still the same goal …

in the process so much shit has gone down to help me re assess the best way of achieving a certain goal …

hey guess what , i might even get it wrong again …theres no plan b , so its always a matter of juggling to reach that goal …

i sense some frustration coming from you , but trust me , whether you have to re assess and make new plans or juggle and work hard , there is always room for people willing to raise the bar …

ive seen enough of your stuff to know your not content with the status quo …

that alone tells me youll figure it out and do well …

and when all else fails , get on sways and ask for suggestions , there are hundreds of crew here who have run surfboard businesses for decades and seen the ups and downs …

as far as our business plans , its local custom all the way , backed up with a small percentage of stock standard molded stuff to get kids in the water cheap …

we wont be flooding the market with cheap stuff , were doing premium stuff and price to match …

there is still plenty of room in this industry …

regards

BERT

43

keith , i said im not motivated by money …

if i wanted to make money , the surfboard industry is the last place i would start …

i got a job offer about 4 years back , 100 k a year working 5 to 9 pm 5 days a week , thats all day every day to surf …

i knocked it back because i had no passion for the job and there were no prospects of learning anything new or exciting …

someone with no experience and plenty of money is really a poor man …

bonus if you end up with both , but if i had to choose one over the other , then experience would win out …

regards

BERT

44

Yeah, for sure. There’s plenty of room. Just feeling a big pinch right now. You guys are right on in reading some serious frustrations in my posts. I hate to show my cards like this. But, I’m not crying in my beer just yet. Yeah, the term “selling out” is as fun to use as “price gouging”. I guess I just look to guys like Rusty as having what I would consider a successful business. He’s branded, he’s involved, he’s building boards right here, how fast did he release an EPS line?? I’d like to be there, just venting some frustrations as that dream flows down the pisser. So thanks Bert for the vote of confidence, I’ve never doubted myself. I knew from day one it was me against the world, you guys are all just witnessing some growing pains. Sales are rediculously low right now, I don’t need to tell anybody in Florida that one. I can’t wait to see how this venture pans out. Hey, I JUST returned from a Hawaiian vacation. Went with the wife AND HER PARENTS!!! So didn’t really get to surf, frustrated by that one too!!!:slight_smile: But, it’s waist high out back, in 3 hours I won’t care where you’re building your boards anymore…

45
Quote:

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Now, concerning Firewire and it’s owners, they are going to be building boards on shore both in OZ and the USA. This will put more pressure on other labels. But survival of one label is that labels responsibility. NO one elses. That is not Firewire’s problem. Just accept that as business. There are no hurt feelings in business. Good bad or indifferent do not enter into the scope of the business realm. What is bad for one is good for someone else. That is all that can be said about that.

======================================================================

We’ll remember these words.

So, if Bert is Oz, and Greg is US, we can accept that Firewire will finance, in part, its domestic production w/ overseas prophets?

No hurt feeling, just business. We’'ll see in a year, or two. I hope it works out.

46

Remember those words well because they will be on the final.

The final being every day in the life of every business that ever wanted to survive.

Real world finals are every day.

I mean, what is it that everyone seems to be looking for here? A magic silver bullet? The government to step in and save the local shapers job? Maybe offer a subsidy or a buy out option? I give. What does eveyone expect to get? And from who or whom? Taxpayer support so people can shape?

Will calling someone a sell out do it? There must be some very strong weed in the pipe today if anyone is buying into that nonsense. Anyone yelling “sell out” is like yelling fire in a crowded room. Only it’s just not illegal, like yelling fire.

Look everyone votes with their wallet. Don’t like Made in China, don’t buy it. I don’t if I can help it. It’s that simple. But it is unAmerican to say anyone has a right to order me what to do.

I know about the 87,000 political disruptions in China last year and I know the military is the only employer in China.

I know all that. I got what you said too. I understand the fact some people can’t accept that a world economy means a whole world economy. I understand that the US and China are the two largest consumers of oil. I get that China has the largest coal reserves. I also get that China is investing in pebble-bottom reactors. Why aren’t we? If the concern is that surfboards are going to make China the world power it is not yet I seriously doubt that. But they have better plans than we do. Just building a bunch of pebble bottom reactors would help us though. Nukes, the new green technology.

But remember this, Saudi Arabia tried to devalue the dollar when the US supported Israel in 1973. The resulting oil crisis lasted almost a decade. Our economy was in shambles. Anyone wonder why we took down Saddam? Could it have been he tried to devalue the buck by forcing trade not in US petrodollars but in Euros? And is it any wonder why we were nuke rattling last week with Iran? Did it escape everyones attention that Iran opened an oil exchanged based on the Euro last week? Their stated goal to weaken the USD.

Now finally, here is your essay question. I’m giving it out now so everyone has the rest of the semester to think about it.

Does China want the US dollar devalued? Give as many facts s you can to support your answer.

47

Couple more thoughts.

When I was getting started in surfing in 68-69 the board company considered the sell out was Hobie. Mass produced boards at a lower price. My first board was a mass produced Hobie Eastern Star. Anyone think of Hobie as the sellout now?

Look what European cabinet design manufacturing and machining did for the US industry. And concerning finishes? Europeans have been ahead of the US for a long time in both those fields. But Americans did not buying kitchens.

Read my signature at the bottom of this post and understand how it applies at all times.

48

Yes, I understood where you are coming from before. No need to go off. It’s obvious you are a big advocate. Like I said I hope so (success). When all of this is reality we can rejoice together, for now we’ll see.

49

there is a big difference between making board in the country side china or vietnam, or poland or wherever.

board should be build by surfer/shaper.

yes the backyarder bro deal hurt the industry but the soul was still there.

what do u think the big companys are trying to sell, SOUL.

In China there is no soul, no freedom of speech, no religion, nothing. The problem is that now, because of those big company (webber,aloha,rusty,lost, merrick…) Its now OK to get board build in china??

you can say that its for the mass, the grommet or the kook, but i was making boards for those people until now.

now i have to build 4 labels to be able to fill the order and keep people employed.

you use to walk in a factory, it smell like resin, dude had you new board ready, was a lifestyle.

now those factory are just warehouse full of bubble pack and boxes of offshore boards.

the question is do we want to be distribution center or actually board builder?

maybe we have no choice to follow the hell and make our board in china so everybody will have 150$ boards and they will be like YoYOs or hula hoop!

that sound fun?

here, the surf shop are teaming out to buy containers full of china junk boards.

what can you do to fight, here is my question…

give service?

after sale service?

free repair?

that for a beautiful 300$ more…

sweet deal…

50
Quote:

I mean, what is it that everyone seems to be looking for here? A magic silver bullet? The government to step in and save the local shapers job? Maybe offer a subsidy or a buy out option? I give. What does eveyone expect to get? And from who or whom? Taxpayer support so people can shape?

Will calling someone a sell out do it? There must be some very strong weed in the pipe today if anyone is buying into that nonsense. Anyone yelling “sell out” is like yelling fire in a crowded room. Only it’s just not illegal, like yelling fire.

Nah, I don’t think anyone is looking for the government to step in. Nobody cares about the shapers jobs anymore. But, isn’t this the place to voice opinions??? Shouldn’t we be responsible to call bullshit on what we feel is bullshit? There’s no union, nobody’s helping us, we’re not even helping ourselves. Some guy down the street from me is importing thousands of boards this year, he’s never shaped a board before. But he is taking advantage of a global marketplace. So, do I just sit back and say good job, congrats on scoring off this situation, thanks for costing me sales this year. Or do I have the right to call him lame? I really wasn’t trying to re-hash this pointless argument. Just very shell-shocked. I’ll still have deep respect for these guys. I’m fascinated by the technology. I know that sticking my ass out and voicing up is asking for it, and I’ve been highly entertained by these responses, especially the one above. I know what’s going on, my wallet feels it. I’m still going to be bummed that the coolest new tech is going to be built over there. I’m still going to think importers are lame. And, I still don’t get how China building boards on our soil will help things? Maybe just speed this direction up a bit…Anybody have something to add back on the subject rather than this importer debate? I apologize for sending this post off on a pointless tangent, but would really like to hear what’s really going on.

51

Hi Bert & Greg -

I think that after reading some of your posts in the past, people may have picked up the wrong impression. I think even the both of you would have to admit that there has been anti-Asia comments thrown about on this board, some of them by both of you.

With the “invasion” by Surftech and other Cobra brands, the announcement of Rusty and Al Merrick to contract production overseas and the flip-flop by Matt Biolas maybe people were sort of looking towards you guys as the last “Great White Hope” of domestic production?

My hunch is that after joining forces with the big guns, you’ve received a dose of reality check by the corporate heads as to how things are going to be done these days. When they start talking about how many hundreds of thousands of boards you can produce per year (and how much money it has to make them), foreign production houses are about your only option.

I’ve talked to guys who have gone on the Randy French/Thailand tour - I know how it goes when it comes to the numbers and dollars discussions.

You can spin it any way you want but after your comments of the past, I think you can both expect a little flak - at least around here. Not that it matters. I doubt that the Swaylocks audience is your sales target anyway.

After reading a post made by Bert in this thread, I am compelled to ask, “Which is it?” (Past posts by both of you have implied that it was all about getting smart.)

"in todays business world you have 2 options , get smart or go to china … "

52

I haven’t even read this thread, but I’m in the mood to say are a “troll” kook, and do not embarrass the PNW of the States, I’m guessing, 'cuz you haven’t had the courtesy to fill in your user profile. Beat it. TaylorO - Central Oregon coast

53

Boo frigin who… I’ll make my own “back hack shack” crap as long as it surfs as good as he hand made custom blah blah blah… I want a robot woman… now that would make my life much easier!!! Ha! Peace to you Greg L., Bert. B. et. al. Get while the getting is good.

54

As I’m reading through this… All this cry “sell out,” etc. Are you kidding? Are you so hard core you don’t see what’s going on around you? Many don’t care. I live in a small isolated place, and yet, as I watched the dudes going for a surf after work yesterday, I say at least 5 “pop out” out of a dozen boards… do the math your self. Seems to me many a surfer don’t care where/who made the board, they just want a value/price point board. “Play on drummer…”

55

YES!!! In this spirit I will call my self a kook and not sell a board! But I still love all this. Is surfing so much “cooler” than any other endevor that all this is so imortant? As many have pointed out, it all goes on… change, change, change… the only constant, and as the coffee dealer points out, “If you fear change, leave it here.”

56

One last bit o’ crap from me… Surfer/shaper should make the board??? Do race car drivers, elite anything make the tools they use??? Not that frequently. Again, life and every thing goes on - good luck with that “acceptance” deal. I’m just hoping for some decent waves, and being thankful I don’t have to worry about getting paid to make “custom” stuff. Surely it will balance out, until then, don’t get to upset.

57

as far as our business plans , its local custom all the way , backed up with a small percentage of stock standard molded stuff to get kids in the water cheap …

we wont be flooding the market with cheap stuff , were doing premium stuff and price to match …

Gotta admit Bert, thats a smart plan. But sticking to the bold statement will likely define the business side of you/nev/FW/Greg’s legacy. I have to assume the significant investment in domestic factories will quiet the peanut gallery somewhat (I still dont get it)

But time will tell.

Unfortunately, imports are here to stay…its a fact of life. But at least having the choice of buying an import brand with domestic custom operation is a positive new trend…I’d say its rather bold.

Just offer me and others “the next level” in domestic custom and I have no problems with your biz plan…yeah, as you can see, I still have my eye on the ball. The rest of the shit here is just infotainment…thats good…brain candy…I like it

PS

Maybe its time to start a new time clock…

Lets count down the opening of Surftech’s brand new domestic based custom composite surfboard factory!

On youre mark, get set…GO!

tick tock tick tock…

PS2

If I could only convince the wife that making money isnt everything…I can totally relate.

You and Greg just keep chargin!

Totally stoked on the choice of getting a domestic custom comp…

58

Thanks for keeping count T.O., you da isoloated man, but not so isolated you don’t have computer access. Try harder dude.

I did the math…it is at 76.78345:5 ratio of yuan/renminibi to U.S. dollar ratio which in layman terms equals SELLOUT.

So are these “entry level” grom boards will be sold for profit or cost???

Aren’t there enough of “entry level” boards avialable now.

Any entry level boards for adults being sold?? You know the ones where all the non surfing landscapers have a new interest in ever since a bunch of shapers starting working for them.

So why can’t Bert and Greg make these entry level boards??? Oh yeah, slave labor helps on bottom line price and not to mention the 100% markup profit makes one ever more entusiastic. And to have your label on this stuff will bring em back for the “really techy” stuff. TOTAL B.S.

Drewtang is full on correct. You have the right to do what you want but it doesn’t mean it isn’t totally lame. It’s lame in regards of thinking this is good for the the smaller board manufacturer. An electric planer costs $300 dollars and 1000 boards later the cost per board is small. So how will two of your “hi tech” factories help the rest of us living in the real world?

I don’t want any special consideration or help in surviving in making boards. I sell out every day in some manner or another but Bert and Greg’s rationale is pretty pathetic.

59

as far as our business plans , its local custom all the way , backed up with a small percentage of stock standard molded stuff to get kids in the water cheap …

Which part do you not understand mr.cherry-picker-spin-doc?

Slave labor?

Non-profit?

Sell at Cost?

I dont know WTF you guys are smokin but ya’ll better start sharing…fast!

60
Quote:

With the “invasion” by Surftech and other Cobra brands, the announcement of Rusty and Al Merrick to contract production overseas and the flip-flop by Matt Biolas maybe people were sort of looking towards you guys as the last “Great White Hope” of domestic production?

That sums up the bad taste in my mouth quite perfectly. Since December 5th, you’ve been such heroes of mine. Driving me towards new goals, keeping a fire lit under my ass. I don’t know, it’s kinda like finding out about Santa Clause or something. Name calling’s definitely lame, too. Sorry. I’ll keep on pumping over priced gas into my Chevy, I’ll bitch at importers, I’m sure we’ll all be ok. But right now my wife needs me to go to Wal-Mart and pick up some cheap shit:)