futureshapes and RR in the news in Au

Industry Talk
41
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I have a product that all board makers would design their boards around because it enhances the perfomance that much.It requires no change in method of making the board or materials used in the board and is done after finishing. I have a toll free # to the engineering department of the biggest company in the world if i ever can find someone i can trust.This can be used in many other things other than surfing.This # was given to me after i described this design to them. They dont surf, they just live in the real world and thats why they had no trouble understsanding its potential.

First question is whether it is patentable.

If you have something that MAY be patentable, you can start by writing it down in an inventor’s book, and signing it. Another common method is writing it down, signing the paper, and mailing it to yourself. DON’T OPEN THE LETTER. The USPS date stamp acts to legally verify the date. Once you have some legally verifiable way to date it, you want to proceed to a provisional patent. The provisional is not a patent. It is basically a mechnism the patent office makes available to you to allow you to talk to people about the patent. It grants you 1 year to get a patent application filed. If you use a patent attorney this step will be between $1k and $2k. But it basically consists of you writing everything you know about the patent down on paper, and being comprehensive. It protects only the things you write down.

Then, you have a year to write an actual patent. Depending on how patent-savvy you are, you could do it yourself for under $2000, or use a patent attorney and pay as little as $10000, or as much as $20000+. The fees will depend on how much of the work you do compared to the attorney. Generally patent attorneys are hired to write the claims, because that is the basic legal framework of the patent. The claims section will be small anyway. The body of the patent the attorney can’t write anyway.

The lawyers should prevent you from doing something stupid like FCS did in protecting their plug but not replacement fins.

If the patent is granted you have 20 years of protection from the date of filing. If the patent is written well you can’t expect more protection. If someone else uses it and gets rich, you can always find a scumbag lawyer to get your royalties.

The RFS patent expires in 2024…

Feel free to email me if this doesn’t orient you well enough to the process.

42

I just finished an MBA in e-business, did a minor thesis on innovation and online networks of practice. This stuff is still buzzing around in my head, I’ll forget it all soon so I won’t be boring you all with “what I learned today at business school” for much longer.

43

Jeez Bert, are you on this between Pinhead and Blakestar you have got the “brains trust” right here on sways (appologies to all you other intelligent contributers to this thread)…

Calling Bert…come in Bert.

p.s. Blakestar…Do you think Mcdonalds could go Bert over I P rigts to his name and sway logo?

44

I dont agree that it is smart money,I think that it is more along the lines of midlife crissis ego money.

From what I know, these guys have already made millions of dollars feeding off the sidelines of what we chose to do for the love of it. Why in the F*^&# would they bother, you outlay, at the best, money to make a 30% profit margin compared to what they know of in the accessory market to be 500% (maybe more). If they had of gone for the board market from the start they would’nt be so wealthy(or is that what you meant by smart money) (or maybe they thought, hey I will make all my money making cloths and then I will concentrate on my true love, SURFBOARDS, yeah right). Although, if you go to China, you might make a better profit, but is that smart money or is it that ego greed. I dont know about you guys, but if I had the money that these guys have lucked upon(and I do mean lucked upon) I would be thanking my lucky stars and going surfing where ever I wanted, not spending time in confrences getting my arse licked by other blokes(but maybe thats the difference between real surfers and smart money lurking)

As far as the magazines go, IF YOU PAY FOR THE SPACE, THEY WILL WRITE NICE THINGS ABOUT YOU. WOW what a concept.

Bitter no, laughing, YES

Sorry Bert, not mowing lawns yet, but maybe when Nev patens YOUR concepts and we’re not allowed to make “apparatus that people catch the swells of the ocean with” I will buy myself a sit on mower and hunt down the swell like contoured banks of my local golf course.

KR

45

Then, you have a year to write an actual patent. Depending on how patent-savvy you are, you could do it yourself for under $2000, or use a patent attorney and pay as little as $10000, or as much as $20000+.

Woa!

DIY costs $2k?

It only costs a couple/few hundred to file.

A provisional costs $75 to file.

As little as $10k?

What country do you live in?

I’ve got an very reputable IP attorney who quoted a small fraction of that. Going hourly is ~$200-250/hr.

Is it a Cali thing?

As far as Greg’s “this is going to be shocking” comment…

the only shocker I can envision is if Slater becomes a sponsored team rider. Anything short of that would be interesting, but not shocking.

46
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There is a reason just about every major sporting good maker on the planet endorses athletes to the tune of Thousands of Thousands of dollars a year.

I think surfboards are quite a bit different than the usual “sporting goods” endorsed by pro athletes. For example, there is a strong tradition in surfing of buying one’s boards from a local shaper, tuned to our own waves. No such thing exists on the same scale in skiing or baseball or whatever. In fact, the market is so different that I don’t think you can compare it at all.

You’ll notice that pro surfers make their endorsement money from clothing companies - they are marketed to non-surfers and wannabes, not core surfers the likes of which would be interested in trying some crazy new $1000 surfboard.

Also keep in mind that there is at least 75% of the surfboard buying market that doesn’t buy boards anything resembling what pros ride. The longboard market alone is 50% and the other 25% is stuff like the bonzer, fish, egg, retro single, etc. surfer. None of these people are as concerned about “performance” and are not likely to use contest results by pros as validation that a new board type is worth buying.

Quote:
Just look at what Kelly's board designs did for shapes in the early 1990s.

Two points: this is not the early 90s. That was before the whole longboard/funboard/retro comeback. A pro shape will never dominate the market like that again. And furthermore, I think what happened in the 90s was that shape spread amongst pros and then their shapers. It doesn’t sound like Bert is looking for spreading his market to other shapers: he wants to build public acceptance and demand.

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Quote:
Then, you have a year to write an actual patent. Depending on how patent-savvy you are, you could do it yourself for under $2000, or use a patent attorney and pay as little as $10000, or as much as $20000+.

Woa!

DIY costs $2k?

It only costs a couple/few hundred to file.

A provisional costs $75 to file.

As little as $10k?

What country do you live in?

I’ve got an very reputable IP attorney who quoted a small fraction of that. Going hourly is ~$200-250/hr.

Is it a Cali thing?

Patent fees are $1200, minimum, rock bottom, for a small entity with all the frills removed. That’s to be awarded the patent, not due at filing. Filing requires $500 of that. If you have more claims, or fall under some other USPTO criteria, more.

The lawyer will go somewhere between 10 and 20 billed hours on the first draft, and another 5-8 hours before it gets submitted. 20 hours total is $4000-5000. Then, there will be multiple rounds of correspondence between the patent office and your attorney, and you’ll accrue a few hours each time. When all is said and done you’ll have $1200+ in fees, and $7000-8000 in lawyer billable hours. Please note that is if the patent is awarded on the first shot. Most often people write too aggressively, and the patent office will require removal of some claims, and you will accrue more billable hours to get the patent re-submitted. Of course, a lot depends on how simple the patent is. But it is rarely THAT simple.

This all applies if you do most of the writing yourself. The lawyer handling the correspondence adds a lot in billable hours. Some inventors just dictate to the lawyers and have them do all the writing, and then it gets up there.

You can definitely safely do a provisional cheaply…

48

hey rocky , i was thinking the same thing about the business advice …

pinhead , i know exactly what your saying about making new markets , it has fors and againsts …

the fors are getting credibility for breaking new ground , the againsts are making mistakes along the way that people who come after you dont have to make because they learnt from yours and potentially do better from your product than you do …

the list goes on …

what i bring in to this business is all the mistakes ive made in the past to get it this far …

i probably sent out the wrong signal when i said i just had to keep creating and go surfing , my job description is a little more diverse than that , but as more and more crew get involved each bringing in there area of expertise , it reduces my role to the key area of R&D , gone are the days of offer docs , costings and then actually having to build the boards as well , then get out and pound the pavement …having run a business from scratch over a 15 year period , your forced to learn and handle every aspect of business management , in the process you find out what your good and not good at , or what you do or dont want to do would be more appropriate …

as far as kelly or taj , i think crew would freak if they knew what they are really paying for there boards …

crew can get boards to test ride , but if they want to keep them and ride them , it comes at a cost …

earlier there were comments about keeping the quality up versus making allowances for production …

this issue has surfaced many times , and its something i feel strongly about , second best will not do …

ive had plenty of dummy spits over quality , stoked josh can back me in the quality department as well , if he sees some shonky work , hes already ushering some poor kid out the door yelling out NEXT! …

no industry credibility ??? come on dusty …

if i go to my accountant to get a job done , does he need surfboard industry cred ???

if i go to an employment agency to find staff , do they need industry cred??

if i need marketing our business advice , would they need surfboard industry credibility ??

what about a lawyer would he need to be from the industry before he would be a credible source to draw information from ???

what if Nev and myself found passionate surfers who were marketing specialists , production , human resources , lawyers , accountants , logistics , retail, artists , business advisers and management , where would we find a surfboard builder with those qualifications ???

surfing is what has brought everyone involved with us together ,i took a board to Nev , he rode it , he was in , Nev took a board to Dougall , he rode it , he was in , Dougall takes a board to Mark , he was in , all crew have to do is ride the boards and they know the potential …

do they think they will make money ???

if you can be involved in a business your passionate about and make a dollar plus also play a role in the area that best fits your skills , what more could you ask for …

dusty , i cant believe your comments about Dougall …

the guy could do anything he wants , in fact he would never have to work a day in his life if he didnt want to , so that just shows how passionate he really is about what hes doing now …

every day hes in there , helping build the whole show from the ground up , actually pulling his sleeves up and doing the hard yards , hes in every corner and wants to know every aspect of the business …

if anyone has an ego its me , Dougall is the last person who i would accuse of having one that is out of control …

the guy has taught me much in humility , but he doesnt take any shit either and he didnt luck his way to where he is …

whos Matthew ?

Matthew was the guy who took Billabong from a private company to a public one … a lawyer by trade …

as this team has grown , its made me realise the value of team work and the concept of I is now we …

so while we do have some insanely talented individuals , i do appreciate any comments you guys throw in as well …

because this is where im stoked to be learning at the moment , when i look over the shoulders of others and see how things are done , having a succesful surfboard business is 90% everything else and 10% being able to build good boards …

the timing on the volume production is the last point i wanted to make …

our plan says 3 months and i would say for oz here on the goldy , we will be just about there by then , i would expect the states to be a few months behind that …

i just hope i get back to C.A. while there is still snow …

hey greg !!! celebrations today with the arrival of some very clear liquid …

and yes a corparate sponsor who can take shit , what do you reckon greg , would we pull the bucks if we got the same treatment we always got ??

funny , i would pay the bucks to have the moderators actually let some threads run a little longer …

ok, mucho responsability …

have to go …

regards

BERT

49

Those are some great points MaraboutSlim and I definately hope the local shaper will be a part of our culture forever.

I KNOW the retro thing will, in my garage at least. :smiley:

But from a marketing perspective I can’t help but think the credibility of the these boards gets out the fastest when people see Kelly or Taj ripping on one. Who’s going to say the flex sucks or the feels is off when the spray is still falling?

50

Some other thoughts on patent law that might be of interest.

  • The mail it to yourself advice is urban myth: http://www.snopes.com/legal/postmark.asp

  • If you have an idea you want to patent, don’t post it here, at least without a provisional patent. Once something that has not been filed is in the public domain it cannot be patented.

  • If you have an idea that you don’t care to patent, but want to keep access to: make it public by posting it here or keep quiet

  • Be careful about DIY patents if you don’t have a fair bit of experience reading and writing patents. A big piece of my day job is intellectual property, and I can tell you first hand that most patents are fairly easy to design around. It takes a lot of savvy and experience to cover the idea in such a way that you don’t simply teach someone else how to implement your invention.

  • Many great inventions are never patented because they can’t be defended. As Bert observed, you have to have deep pockets to find and challenge violators. Some of the best are never touted because the benefits are compelling and the inventor doesn’t want to draw attention to what they are doing to get that benefit.

  • Not all countries have a strong commitment to IP. Realistically ask yourself if you have the resources to discover and sue a Chinese company that has read your patent and incorporated it into the labelless boards they are selling.

Matt

Designer of Very Small Holes

51

What is the difference between a disclosure document and a provisional application?

A Disclosure Document is not a patent application, and does not permit the term “Patent Pending” to be applied in connection with the invention. The date of receipt of a Disclosure Document in the USPTO will not become the effective filing date of any patent application subsequently filed. The date of the Disclosure Document’s receipt in the USPTO, however, provides evidence of a date of conception if it is referenced in a related patent application within two years of such receipt.

The Disclosure Document brochure is at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/disdo.html.

Unlike a Disclosure Document, a provisional application is a patent application, which establishes an official United States patent application filing date for the invention and permits the term “Patent Pending” to be applied in connection with the invention. A foreign application may claim priority to a provisional application, but a disclosure document may not be relied upon for priority. A provisional application automatically becomes abandoned when its pendency expires 12 monthsafter the provisional application filing date by operation of law. Applicants must file a non-provisional application claiming benefit of the earlier provisional application filing date in the USPTO before the provisional application pendency period expires in order to preserve any benefit from the provisional-application filing.

Information on provisional applications is located at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/provapp.htm.

Upon request, the USPTO will send Disclosure Document and Provisional Patent Application brochures including forms. For additional information, you may contact the USPTO Contact Center (UCC) and request to be transferred to the Inventors Assistance Center (IAC). IAC representatives are available Monday through Friday (except federal holidays) from 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

[USPTO FAQ - Questions and Answers ]

http://www.uspto.gov/main/faq/

52
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Some other thoughts on patent law that might be of interest.

It is not intended to establish legality of copyright. Only to show that you had the idea for the invention at a certain time. It may come up that someone else claims prior art. Your “mail it to yourself” envelope would be able to show that you had the idea on the date stamped on the envelope. It is only considered marginally more protection than writing your ideas down in an inventor’s notebook, dating, and signing it. And, really it is the same thing, a listing of your invention, dated, with your signature. The envelope additionally has the USPS date stamp.

Quote:
  • If you have an idea you want to patent, don’t post it here, at least without a provisional patent. Once something that has not been filed is in the public domain it cannot be patented.

Things posted here are not public domain. However, posting something here would be disclosure, and give you at most two years to get a patent filed (if you file a provisional within one year). Disclosure occurs when others find out about your invention through publishing of some sort. All disclosed inventions that are not patented become public domain one year after disclosure if a patent is not filed, or one year after a provisional if a complete patent application doesn’t follow.

Quote:
  • Many great inventions are never patented because they can’t be defended. As Bert observed, you have to have deep pockets to find and challenge violators. Some of the best are never touted because the benefits are compelling and the inventor doesn’t want to draw attention to what they are doing to get that benefit.

Maybe…no, not really. Patents have a lifetime, and you can choose to challenge violators whenever you like, it may be done on a contingency basis for a lawyer, etc. If you have a good patent and someone makes a boatload violating it, you can quite easily get a share of it.

I think small guys avoid patents because they don’t understand the value of IP in business, or because their business is too small to justify the cost.

That being said, I dislike the practice of patent squatting. Some people write patents in the hopes that others will violate them in the future, and they will make money from royalties. Patents are a solid part of business WHEN they are accompanied by product development. They are a tax on society when they are developed by squatters.

Quote:
  • Not all countries have a strong commitment to IP. Realistically ask yourself if you have the resources to discover and sue a Chinese company that has read your patent and incorporated it into the labelless boards they are selling.

They will have to answer for it in American courts if they sell those boards in America.

53

Howzit blakestah, You are on the right track about sending the info to your self as a precaution for patents. One thing though is to make it a certified letter, some thing I leaned years ago from a patent lawyer. Here on Kauai we have a girl surfer who takes surfing pictures while surfing herself. She came up with a design that would allow her to keep the camera on her wrist while surfing/taking pics. She sent her design to Kodak and they replied that they weren’t interested. Well low and behold 6 months later they took her idea and made exactly the same product. When she told me about this I asked her if she did the letter to herself thing and she said no, therefore she has no claim to any money from the product. Just goes to show just how sneaky the big companies are. Aloha,Kokua

54

Blakestah,

Thanks for the correction on the difference between disclosure and public domain. I learned that my company’s laywers give internal guidance the essentially equates diclosure and public domain to avoid triggering deadlines for filing.

My point on posting ideas here was more that for the small guy who doesn’t want to spend the $$ for a patent, there are free ways to protect your right to use, if you are willing to forego making a profit.

I guess I don’t have the sneaky gene because it never occurred to me to file and wait for someone else to cash in before sueing on contingency.

Matt

55

Good reply Bert. As i said Dougal’s cred is 10 out of 10 (maybe 20 out 10 after what you said).

Sounds like your happy and confident that the others have passion and I hope that their passion is continually tested by someone like you.

Do yourself a favour…when they tell you “not to worry”…start worrying !

Build an exit strategy into your plans now. If a fire starts, you will know the safe way out.

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Quote:

what i bring in to this business is all the mistakes ive made in the past to get it this far

You’re right I shouldn’t be recommending books to you about innovation - you could write your own.

Quote:

stoked josh can back me in the quality department as well

Josh is probably still having nightmares after witnessing my workmanship

57

Wow, this is going to be great stuff to watch. I scheduled innovation meetings for my last project at my workplace (it was in defiance to the quote that you cannot schedule innovation), where patents are encouraged. Luckily, patent applications are taken care of for us by internal staff. It interested me more to stop by Greg’s place and see him working on perimeter stringers, no stringers, parabolic tails, composite epoxy sandwiches and different glassing techniques. It was nice to juxtapose aerospace construction with what he was always playing around with. Now it looks like another spinoff is about to venture out into the brazen, corporate and ephemeral driven world.

Good luck Bert and Greg! I will be cheering for your success. I can’t say I’ll buy one unless Richie and Steve retire soon.

58

The discussion of patents is rather silly…

There are millions of great ideas. It is the ability to implement an idea, take it to market, and profit, that separates the men from the boys. Scaling business models is non-trivial.

Look at the computer industry. There are a ton of superior technologies, with patents, that failed when they went to market. The smart ones create markets. Find opportunities to support the technology and help it flurish with affordable licensing fees, products, and services. Resin Research is a good acquisition. Pulling the epoxy from the market to make your own boards superior is a bad idea.

There are already tons of high tech surf toys. If Future Shapes drops a revolutionary product and sells a ton of them it still may not even be a profitable business venture. How many people really need a high performance surfboard anyway?

Make sure to brand the product properly. Future Shapes cannot expect to win market share with technology alone. They are going to have to compete on all fronts.

I never saw Grubby Clark on the Forbes list.

And, it would be easier in court to claim that a major sports star made you have sex against your will, than to prove you had an idea first by mailing a letter to yourself.

Bert, I want on one of these boards. Please let me know how I can get on the list, as I am the demographic.

Josh

59

Please do not miss understand me. What I am pointing out is that obtaining patents is the trivial part of the technology business. Obtaining a patent is a know process. You can even do most the work your self here in the US. They have all the instructions on there website.

Taking a technology to market and making a profit is the hard part. That is my point. In my opinion it is harder than inventing/discovering the technology. If I knew the process for setting up the facilities to manufacture, distribute, and sell enough high performance surfboards to render a profit for everyone involved, then I would patent it.

I can’t wait to see the price point of these boards. It will say a lot.

Josh

60

This is why i need someone i can trust as a partner,in protecting and marketing while i continue with my normal work.