I agree with what your saying, my experience is a lot of upwind paddling, surf and paddle boards. Trying to avoid the spray in the eye deal, I tend to force the nose underwater. I noticed that if I can maintain that fine line, I’m moving a bit faster, but keeping the nose underwater in any kind of chop is really difficult. In smooth conditions it works best.
They have proven that a swimmer is faster underwater than on the surface, hence the underwater distance limit in pool competition.
good one Keith!
maybe that’s a good explaination to the family why I have 35 and am growing more…
and a good excuse not to get rid of anymore too!
cause you never know what kind of wave you’re gonna surf
you have to be prepared for it all…
even had a 19.5" 9’6" triple stringered double leash plug rhino chaser although I’d never venture into anything over 6’-8’ here nowadays.
haha…
I need to pocket this one for future use…
A different board for every wave I catch…
I like that…
Re: [craftee] Ideal paddling and volume.
Condition specific for wave, rider, and board combination. I think sometimes the problem with a fuller volume board is that even tho you have what seems to be enough speed you are floating on top of the wave instead of being caught in the wave and carried forward with it.
This is so true. Smaller boards are down in the water more so they get picked up by the wave. I learned this with paipo (boogie) boards. Watch a sponger go for a wave, they push down on their board as they’re paddling and it helps to get the right angle where the wave picks them up. Sometimes you need to be way up front to catch the wave if your board is too floaty. Otherwise it passes right under you. But it’s all relative to the size and power of the waves you’re riding. If you can paddle hard enough you’ll catch the wave.
Bottom line is, you can’t get into a wave with a small board as soon as you can with a longer board. That’s why they have to ride longer boards in big surf. You need to be able to get into the wave early enough to make the drop. Then again, with a small board you can drop into a double overhead barrel right under the lip, and stay there for the whole ride. I have a friend who does it all the time. The longboard guys up in the country can do it, but I’ve never seen anyone on the southshore make that drop. This is also why we see the tow in thing happening. These guys are riding waves they could never paddle into safely, and they’re flying around on really small boards.
I used a 6’2" rocket fish out in maxed out ala moana park years ago. The day before was only about 6 foot faces, and very crowded. So I paddled out in the dark and didn’t know how big it was. When the sets came in it closed out across 2 or 3 breaks. You didn’t try to paddle through, you just swam down, pulled on your leash and hoped it wouldn’t break. In 3 hours I paddled my but off, but only caught 3 waves. They were so thick I couldn’t get into them. When I did, I was dropping into the pit and had to be real gentle on the turns, but man I was going sooo fast, and I was all over the wave. I would have had more fun on a longer narrower board like my 7’2" BK gun because I could get into the wave earlier and make hard square turns.
As we get older, we try to find that magic board that’s going to make us surf better. After 40 years, I don’t think I’m going to get better. But one of these days, I’m going to find the magic board that allows me have more fun. I hope you all find yours.
Aloha,
oneula’s brother
I dunno, I don’t think there is a magic board. I think you use whatever you have in your quiver that suits the conditions on the day. I’m a big fan of the longboard but I also ride a 6’4" x 23 x 3’ fish. I still take both of them to the beach and a lot of the time I’ll paddle out on the longboard or vice versa, catch a coupla waves then bolt back to the car and change boards because I think the conditions warrant it. I have at times been wrong and had to slink back to the car and change back!! I’m a competent longboarder and a kook on a fish but I’m learning. I love them both but the point I’m trying to make from this ramble is horses for courses!!
Great thread tho!
“Bottom line is, you can’t get into a wave with a small board as soon as you can with a longer board.”
True in big surf. Not always true in smaller conditions. Just because you haven’t seen something occur, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been happening.
On a hunch, I did a little research on theoretical top speed for fully submerged hulls, i.e., submarines. It appears that the hull speed formula for surface vessels, which is limited by the effect of “pushing” a bow wave ahead of the hull, does not apply below the air/water interface. There is no bow wave to push. The theoretical top speed for a fully submerged hull is a function of parasitic drag and propulsive power only. I would think that all else equal, parasitic drag will increase with waterline length, the opposite of the trend at the surface. So the contention by some posters that their paddling seems to be easier when parts of the board are submerged could be exactly right (I was skeptical at first). How and when the bow wave effect disappears in the process of submersion is something I was unable to find.
-Samiam
Dale, what are your thoughts on how size and shape characteristics would affect paddling the mats you build? Does varying “stiffness” via air pressure changes have any dramatic effects by itself? Even if there aren’t radical differences between the mat models you typically build, I suspect that you will have developed theories based on your experience, and points of view from slightly different but related applications can frequently lead to AHA! moments…
-Samiam
so , chicken and the egg …
re: ‘ideal paddling and volume’ …
for each of you , individually , reading this thread …
have you found your own personal ideal volume for paddling , in your most regularly surfed conditions / beach ?
AND / or
have you an ideal ‘paddling’ [style] for [that] volume ?
I would be very interested to hear what people have “settled” for , and how / why , and their experiences …
cheers ,
ben
paddle dimension
the variety of boards and their paddle characteristics
are like stepping to the looking glass and then stepping through.
Wih each increase in deminsion ,be it length ,width or thickness
another portal has opened to infinite potentials.
all other relative dimentions including bottom rocker
and deck curve must be adjusted.
once this form has been fixed in space
an entity has been created
the added pilot or rider
must adapt to the limits of this form.
Different boards catch different waves.
to insist on riding an inappropriate
board and not copping to pilot error
is not uncommon.
wave over feeding at the expense of performance
and or the denial of others riding appropriate forms
has historicly created bad blood between the schools
of thought.
as the staples singers lyric said
''wel just get out the way and let the gentleman
do his thing’‘’
everyone is entitled to an oppertunity
to manifest their dreams in real time.
dont practice in the front row.
take the practice runs in the lesser venues
watching perfectly good waves get wasted
is frustrating to those who have the timing checked out.
Piloting these multi dimentional surf craft is an
aquired skill.Put in the time,aquire the skill.
polished well executed paddling is an art
a board that paddles well is a gift from a higher understanding
that can be undone by off center and off trim placement
there is no substitute for experience.
there is no easy way to learn propper trim placement
you gotta put in the hours on each board.
there are guys that have been paddling wrong for thirty years
Gifted paddlers are a delight to watch
imprint on excellent paddlers and pace with them
learn somthing every day
you go out.
avoid imprinting on ‘bad habit’ paddlers
1.REACH
2.DRAW
3.PUSH
AND
each a valild and important component of a good stroke
…ambrose…
the worst board with a good pilot
the best board with a poor piot
the best board witth the best pilot
pick one ,be happy
the bottom line is integrating the
underwater curve
with the glide-trim coefficients.
you can catch any wave
with any board
with enough practice
the gift:
catching the wave that few can percieve
in the next dimension
iam,
I have a corky 6’6" That I always felt padddled better if I was foreward enough to submerge the nose. Glad there is some science to hang my hat on. Trouble tho is its only useful for paddling out as trying to catch a wave in that attitude is problematic. A lot of weight shifting / timing needed to get nose back out of the water before heels are over head.
...That I always felt padddled better if I was foreward enough to submerge the nose...
I suspect this is an angle of attack effect, at least that is the way I see it. With the nose submerged the board is likely sitting flatter in the water and thus is gliding /slicing through the water more. With the nose up, the tail is likely down and then your pushing the board into the on coming water. With the atack angle increased (nose up) and you paddle hard enough you may get the board up on plain but with a short board it will drop back down as soon as you back off (i.e. no continued glide).
... Trouble tho is its only useful for paddling out as trying to catch a wave in that attitude is problematic. A lot of weight shifting / timing needed to get nose back out of the water before heels are over head.
This may be common knowledge/practice but my first time out on my fish I learnt a little trick for adjusting trim while paddeling… Something you don’t do on a 10’ LB so it was a cool discovery for me.
You lay on the board forward so that the nose wants to dip below the surface for the fast paddle effect being talkded about above, then use your knees to push the tail back down to adjust/control your trim/angle of attack in the water. This enabled me to use the submerged nose paddle position for wave take off as well.
—< as for the submarine idea >—
I would think your body is still pushing the bow wave as that is now at the surface boundary.
So with submerged paddling it would seem that a flat rocker would still help paddle speed. But what about the flip nose rocker on a short board. On one hand it would seem to push water more than a constant rocker. But on the other hand, the rocker after the flip is progressively flatter, so a greater amount of rocker overall is flatter on a flip nose than a constant rocker.
Any thoughts?
Why would the flip tip push water…if it is out of the water? The water starts hitting the board further back where the rocker flattens. I always thought of the flip tip as an anti pearl device. It adds 6" - 10" of length that is, as far as I’m concerned, not really part of the board most of the time. What would be the difference between a 6-2 with relaxed rocker and an identical board just stretched out 8" to put in a flip tip?
Why would the flip tip push water...if it is out of the water?
I agree, but I’m talking about submerged paddling where the entire board is under water.
Scott,
Even when paddling, a surf mat’s top and bottom surfaces adapt independently to the water’s surface as well as the rider’s body. Low air volumes are used, so my mats are never “stiff”… rather, their buoyancy distribution, length, width, thickness profile, flex, bottom and rail contours are free to change (within limits)… designed for adjustable buoyancy to suit the wave/water conditions.
Because they’re so malleable, mats move over the water very well. Mats can also be made to “breathe” (transfer air) between their chambers to certain degrees, which has a significant influence on performance. Since I frequently create custom equipment based on specific feedback, my surf mats are often very different from one another.
To say the least, most surfers are surprised to see a mat rider paddling into unbroken waves, even moreso when they race across swells at full trim speed, outside of “normal” take-off zones.
And it all begins with paddling.
"After decades of riding the “modern” mats, I feel like I’m maybe just graduating from apprentice to journeyman…
maybe! I learn something new almost every go-out. Thanks again for the most amazing water toys on the planet…"
(Kenny Hughes - California)
“Try to imagine better wave-catching ability than a long board, and more speed and maneuverability than a short board… that’s mat surfing!” (Tony Lum - Hawaii)
Jesh…went surfing to night and noticed the bubble you’re talking about… Never even thught about it before…sounds crazy…more board under water=less resistance but you’re right!
Not sure about wave catching though…seems that this posotion isn’t the natural one…feels odd…maybr that’s just me though?
I don’t think it’s been said yet, but the thickness distribution also has something to do with it. That’s also relative to the rocker, particularly when paddling.
Width and length also play a big part, as just adding extra length for a nose flip changes the planshape, lengthening the rail, which in turn effects the paddling.
Some people are heavier in the chest, some bigger legs and waist, another variable to throw in, not to mention padling technique, which includes individual arm length and strength variations.
The majority of times I’ve padled with the nose underwater were due to windy conditions, so I paddled with the nose under to stop the spray in my eyes. I don’t think a correctly designed board would naturally want to paddle nose under.
Overall, the best paddling boards I’ve ridden (all modern shortboards), were wide point around centre with the thickest point forward of centre.
As far as wave catching ability goes, wider tails seem to do the trick.
just for you sam…
I’m pretty impressed by those swimmers making 3.6 knots. I once owned a sailboat that was challenged to match that…
The Figure 2 graph actually tends to support the premise:
http://cis.squirming.net/gfx/articles/swimming/isbs/ht3-img2.gif
Figure 2: Effect of depth on total drag: At the surface total drag increases considerably due to wave drag. Wave drag becomes negligible at depths of >3 times the diameter of the object, adapted from Hertel (1966)
I’m guessing from the reference to depth in terms of diameter Hertel was experimenting with a radially symmetrical object. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to extrapolate that with an object like a surfboard, submerging it to just below the surface would likewise cut the wave drag so much that the total drag is reduced by ~50%.
This has been a very educational thread. I had convinced myself that longer was unequivocally better where padding is concerned - I am going to need to give that further consideration.
-Samiam
Something to think about.
Some of these swath principals apply.
For example water plane area.
