Poser:
can you elaborate a little on why you’d prefer a stiffer fin?
A board that’s flat as a pancake - with parallel rails - wouldn’t a stiffer fin make coming up on a rail, and turns (cutbacks) more difficult? Plus, doesn’t the flexfin give you a little kick out of turns?
What about this Miles type - how was he surfing the board with that stiff fin?
I’m not a Poser (well, maybe I am, but that’s a different story 
) but I’m gonna butt in anyway
I just finished a 10’ longboard that I thought was kind of CJ Nelson style - super wide, flat, relatively thin, very pinched rails (like 1" radius) and lots of belly in the bottom to match the dome in the deck required to go from 3" thick to 1" at the edges.
Well, I’ve surfed the Pearson CJ model and this ain’t it (go figure rolls eyes) But it is something…
I’ve been reading all these hull posts trying to figure out if that’s sort of what I’ve got. And I think it is. Its a trip - not only can I bury the rail on a turn, but sometimes I’ll be trimming along pretty fast and glance down and water is sheeting right over the deck of the board! Like, completely perpendicular to the board and splashing all across my feet and everything. Walled-up wave, obviously, or I’d still be turning & go right out the back. And somtimes I kind of go “whoa!” and throw my hands way up in the air and do a Velzy-like cutback (in my mind, anyway) and then I go straight and then turn back up and it drifts to a line kind of near the top of the wave where it feels comfortable and I notice the water thing all over again…
And then I watch those videos JM posted a link to and think to myself, wow, those guys are really active…kind of like CJ Nelson…
But at first it still wasn’t coming together. I couldn’t get a rhythm, couldn’t link more than a couple turns together, couldn’t beat sections like I want to. I’ve still got my first-try fin in it, a pivot-style upright one. So I try to think “HULL” and put in the closest thing I’ve got which is a Greenough 4a all the way forward in the box (not that those things can move much). And I have a session on it and its definitely faster, but totally mushes in turns, especially a big left-go-right type setup turn. So I think again to myself (dangerous now) “I just remembered - I don’t like this fin!” So then I happen to find a Rainbow Mike DeTemple 3 fin which looks just like the Greenough 4a but foiled about a quarter-inch thicker all the way to the tip. Like the G4a shape, but without flex.
So I slap that baby in (even though its yellow) and the board comes alive, giving me the review of the long paragraph above…
I’m 210 lb+, and the super flexy fins don’t snap back & propel me out of turns as advertised; they flex and then flex some more & let too much water go by and I lose speed. But this thicker, more rigid version of the “right fin” for the shape is dynamite…
Sorry to go long and to jump your thread. But there you have it - big guy + oversize “hull” = stiffer fin.
no problems, Benny1 - the lengthy reply is actually appreciated. I’m 220-225lbs and have only had my Liddle out in one good sesh - head-hi pointbreak. Need more battle practice - but so far i’ve enjoyed the new feel.
Good research Benny. Definitely a “flex” fin for me (130 pounds) would be a spongy wash-out for you. The amount of flex isn’t talked about near as much as fin template and position but I think its nearly as important for a hull to work right. There’s a lot of variables to futz with in just a single fin when tuning one of them thar hulls.
im actually really into stiffer fins, in general. on all of my boards, even though none of them resemble hulls.
the board looked as fast down the line, and the turns were still good, but they wern’t springy. there was no shock absorber effect. but it really did work well, and the board really was a complete hull.
so i suppose with a sitffer fin i twuold be much easier backside because you wouldn’t slide out, and it would make hte board way more versatile because you could take later drops and grap your rail and just hold on and let the fin do some work on really steep takeoffs.
if i ever get a hull, im getting a stiff fin, even though greg liddle says that his boards will not work with a stiff fin.
i really do appreciate the flex fin thing and how its supposed to work. especially when behind sections because you can bounce it like a pogostick with your ankles and fling yourself in front of the curl, but i feel like adding a stiffer fin makes the board way way way way more versatile.
now, what I don’t get about hulls ,
is that i feel like nobody can really explain them clearly enough.
if displacement hulls go really fast, why do longboards with belly in the tail go really slow. hulls have less belly, and belly from nose to tail, and they go fairly quick (according to some, but i dont really know anybdoy who claims their traditional longboard is fast). so is it because the belly is distributed throughout the whole board? or is it something i’m missing.
matt, kirk, pierpontscott, come and tell us!!! tell us what you think of the last few posts, and you too sirpato. PLEASE.
Poser - check the current thread about certain traditional longboards…with belly bottom & flat rocker, they’re faster than the proverbial sh!t through a goose. Phil Edwards shapes & Harbour Trestle Specials led the way…
And they’re not that unlike a hull - just aimed for stiffness & planing speed rather than organic wave-copaceticness - but both are point & shoot And don’t ever make the mistake of trying to stay on the tail.
If any of the readers of this addictive thread are interested I’ve listed the following 1970s Liddle for sale:
http://www.swaylocks.com/swaybay/Detailed/1049.html
Sorry for the self promotion.
-Sean
benny,
points well taken.
know what i just realized. a board with a flat front half and belly in the tail, like a traditional log, induces mass amounts of drag (in my opinion) because the front half is planing above the water so its being pushed upward because it’s planing while the tail is being pushed underwater by the upward force of the front half - there’s the drag.
a hull, with belly all the way through and a flat tail isn’t being forced down into the water by a planing surface in front, so it can do its thing on its own, trure displacement style.
valid? not valid?
My name is Andersonfan and I am a finaholic…
Sorry, had to go there. On the topic of the flex vs. stiff fin Benny and I usually agree, especially in longboards. That said, I do prefer the true Volan “Dirt” template flex fin in my hull vs. the stiffer True Ames “L” Flex or the Greenough 4A. I have a 7’10" Liddle Inbetweener, I weigh 225 and am 6’2".
I can feel the load-up and release with the hand foiled Volan fin I got from Pierpont Scott much better than the TA L Flex or the 4A. I’m assuming since the fin sits so far up from the tail I am not having the cavitation issues I usually have with what I call high rake fins (ala the Greenough 4A) on my longboards. If I were to put a fin with the Dirt Template on one of my longboards I would cavitate on every bottom turn- don’t have that issue at all with the Dirt fin and actually felt the difference when I switched from the stiffer fin. Perhaps it’s a combination of using more of the rail in conjunction with the fin further up the board; I can’t explain it, I just know it works better.
AF
News Flash: The Greenough 4A was never intended for use with longboards. Just ask George, he’ll tell ya-
“why do longboards with belly in the tail go really slow.”
I don’t know if that’s necessarily true. I think Skip Frye said it best… something like the old school round bottom tails suck - literally. Ridden on the flats, they do.
If you’ve never tried the Tom Morey spoon in the faucet trick, do it. It might shed some light on the issue at hand. Dangle the spoon between your fingers and let first the concave surface hit the water flowing out of the faucet, then the convex side.
Watch a hull rider get stuck behind a section - they have a harder time recovering and making it to the shoulder. The boards aren’t really designed to ride flat - that’s when a round bottom sucks. They were designed for perfect peeling waves. Get one on the rail in the sweet spot of the wave and they trim like mad. The rolled bottom and flexy fin are designed to get you on the rail.
a stiffer fin on a liddle will work but the board will surf different.i have found that it becomes more skatier and turns easier in the fashion of a standard board.by that i mean it doesn’t surf of the rail like it’s supposed to , rather surfs off the bottom of the board. as far as coming from behind a section from what i have observed and felt is they do it easier.when they are at the point of where the whitewater fall line is they actually pick up speed…many yeras ago i was watching two guys on liddles and when they would come into that whitwater fall line they actually started going faster -it was this observation that got me hooked on hulls
I am sure he never intended them for longboards; Josh Farberow recommended I try the 9.75" 4A as a single fin as he really enjoyed his and we were riding the same board at the time. I’m sure the 50 lb. delta between us and Josh’s skill level have something to do with it :).
As far as coming from behind sections- I have found that I am able to get through those sections on a hull easier than any other shortboard in the quiver. As long as you stay in the whitewater, it will still engage the inside rail on the wave face (or whats left of it) immediately below the whitewater and continue at the same speed of the wave. If it is a long section of whitewater I may not make it around but if it is less than 10-15 yards it is usually not an issue. The hull does hold it’s speed in whitewater which was a pleasant surprise to me.
AF
News Flash: The Greenough 4A was never intended for use with longboards. Just ask George, he’ll tell ya-
I hear you on the flex fin, AF. I think you’ve illustrated the difference between the whole package: 7’10" hull, flex fin, fin placement, and a coincedental facsimilie: a longboard which, under certain conditions, can behave a bit like a hull…
As for the news flash, personally I’m happy that the surf world has both inventors and innovators. Better not tell Laird that the guy who invented the Air Chair never intended his hydrofoil to be bolted to the bottom of a surfboard; poor Blane, he had no idea that Micky Munoz never meant for his Surftech plugs to be used for stand-up paddle.
I’ve ridden my Liddle on two different days:
Day 1: shoulder high beachbreak slop – I felt the board was slow to get up and get going, stiff – not in it’s element - simple
Day 2: Shoulder- headhigh Point – first wave i caught was in the ‘fall line’- right were it started breaking. I got to my feet and the board almost took off without me D-T-L. I was unreal suprised by this cuz the takes offs on my prev Beachbr session it felt slooow to get goin. I felt like this board could make sections like a champ. My ONLY complaint about the board that day is due to my inexperience on the type of board - cutbacks - just need little mo time to get it down. I believe I felt a bit of ‘spring’ off the bottom when i’d climb and drop too… and THAT i largely attribute to the fin. really at the time i felt there was no stopping me… until i’d try cutting back.
And although we’ve heard above that the Hull will work ( or perhaps surf is the better term) with a stiff fin, i think perhaps that when you do, you are moving away from the concept of surfing largely off the rails - one of the things, the thought which attracted (obsesses) me to surfing these far-out looking round boards … loooong, deep carves.
Sure any fin will do. But some surf alot better than others! No surprise to Greenough about the misapplication of his fin designs. ask Bob Duncan of Wilderness surfboards what Greenough fins are best for longboarding.
Matt,
Is the red fin in the far board a True Ames Skip Frye flexfin?
check out these vids.
whats the deal wiht gothic dolphin? who is it? in the liddle sj article there is a pic that says gothic dolphin on it too.
who is the gothic dolph?
check out the vids here.
http://www.newyorksurf.com/modules/ipboard/index.php?showtopic=8185
no. it’s a liddle flex fin painted red.gothic dolphin lurks about here now and then and is floating around somewhere in the art world…also, per my response to stiff fins, i find it more so with a slightly fuller foil , especially on liddles.
Bobby,
Thanks for the links. A little “artsy” for my taste but fun to watch nonetheless.
Hey Venturans…The Point was picking up with the tide drop at 1:00PM today. Looks like the new swell is rolling in on time. Prepare yo’selves for the morning crush, manana.
Should I ride the Hull or the Wilderness Stubbie??? HMMmmmmmmmm…?