resistance to change...why

General Discussion
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My point about the dinosaurs was not that you personally killed them, GIM, but rather that petroleum products (i.e., surfboards) are made from something that was once alive but died a long, long, time ago (actually petroleum is not really decomposed dinosaurs, but the remains of compressed swampy forests). My further point being that they are not just dead, but that they are “really, really, truly dead!” (sung in a high pitched voice).

Wood, on the other hand, comes from a living, renewable resource. And wooden boards do not have to be huge ‘logs’. Some quite interesting and advanced shapes can be fashioned. I’ve seen a few pictured here on this web site. I myself am now shaping exclusively balsa by hand (i.e., without the benefit of any power tools). I do not produce these boards are on a commercial basis or to make money, but rather because I want to.

Although I still do use regular epoxy, epoxy can be made of vegetable oil for a truly Earth friendly board. In any event, if the board is built to last a while (i.e., longer than 1 1/2 years!), then that is not as much of an issue. Also, there is far less waste associated with epoxy since the amount needed to glass the board can be much more closely calibrated to the exact amount needed.

All kinds of excuses can be made to justify toxic surfboards (we drive cars, use electricity, so on and so forth, blah, blah, blah…). But in the end they are just that, excuses.

I thought surfing was supposed to be, among other things, Truth seeking. A reconnection with one’s inner and/or higher self through communion with Nature (i.e., the Ocean). Quite a contrast in attitudes. Seeking Nature out while at the same time dealing her a Death Blow!

The picture attached to my posts was taken in 1972. It was meant as sort of a joke. Perhaps I should change it if it causes you such distress.

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Retroman…Nice to read an opinion from an informed source. Stronger, lighter boards with less environmental impact… what a concept. Thanks for the input … I couldn’t agree more… or add to what you’ve already stated.

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Retroman.They grow a lot of soybeans in my area is the oil they get from them cosidered vegetable oil??With the small farmers going bankrupt left and right I wonder why they don’t pursue it more?I was watching a thing on CNN about oil production and they were saying prices will never go down again.If anything they will continue to rise.The two main reasons are the oil companies are not builiding any more refineries and the Chinese are going to be competing really hard for world oil supplies in the next few years.They are getting rich and like to buy SUV’s and Cadillacs.

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Greg,

I agree with everything retroman says about epoxy, but slaughtering very, very alive trees? I say - who’s the hypocrite?

I’m willing to give epoxy a try - do you have an e-mail or phone number contact? Thank you very much.

Ready for the future,

Ghost

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It is perfectly possible to use recycled or salvaged lumber if killing trees is an issue for you.

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Actually the deforestation of the earth may be a “bigger” problem than the small number of companies that blow foam for the surfboard industry could ever cause. If you follow the link that I gave, you’ll see that managing resources sometimes creates more of a problem in the long run. If you’re looking to purchase “clear” lumber, chances are that tree was raised on a tree farm that used chemical fertilizers and insecticides to give that desired even grain and lack of scars!

I’m afraid that I find your logic shoddy at best retroman, and side with Roy on using reclaimed or reinvested lumber as an alternative to foam blanks. Thanks Roy!

When I first started shaping, I would strip the fiberglass off older thicker boards and would use that foam - maybe even twice. I can still get a fish out of one of my “big boy” shapes for my son.

I wholeheartedly agree that epoxy is - and will be the future! I say BRING IT ON.

ps I was refering to the picture that I attached to MY e-mail (SmallCrappyDay.jpg) - I’m not bothered by your picture - just your lack of understanding - except what you quoted.

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First of all, GIM, I never called you a hypocrite so why do you have to start throwing around such accusations. Are you feeling a bit defensive, perhaps?

I did, however, point out the contradictions of saying that one is engaging in an activity that supposedly brings one closer to Nature while at the same time utilizing materials that are so destructive to the environment and then making lame excuses for such behavior. If you feel that you fit that characterization, then so be it.

On the other hand, if you freely admit to this behavior and attitude then you are not a hypocrite (saying one thing and doing another).

Secondly, intelligent harvesting of selected trees is not the same thing as slaughtering them (clear cutting a forest would be a slaughter). And using those trees in the construction of a surfboard, canoe, etc., could be seen as a reverent and wise use of those resources.

However, it is obvious that you do not KNOW a thing about balsa wood (which is what I use). Balsa trees are considered akin to a weed. They quickly colonize disturbed areas of forest (whether natural or manmade), and have a very short life span (in comparison to an average tree’s lifespan). They must be harvested by hand from the wild, which is why balsa is rather expensive.

Of course, building surfboards out of petroleum products could also be argued to be a wise use of said products if (and this is a big if), they were made to last. Instead what we have are throwaway, disposable sufboards which are toxic in both their manufacture and after they are discarded.

I applaud you GIM for recycling old surfboards. I know from experience that that is a lot of hard work. If only more were to follow your lead (someday they may have little choice).

Unfortunately that is not a common practice and my comments/criticisms were directed at the industry itself, not you in particular.

And yes, soybean oil is a vegetable product. A little known but completely true and amazing fact is that diesal engines will run just fine on vegetable oil! You can purchase conversion kits for under a US$1000.

P.S. Sorry about mixing up the pictures. The day I drove down was nowhere near as beautiful as the one in your attachment. The point I was trying to make was that the vast majority of surfers have absolutely no understanding of surfboards, what goes into their manufacture or design. They would be just as happy on boards made of less toxic materials, even though those boards would not perform as well, because in reality it wouldn’t make a bit of difference to them. They are merely buying into an image sold by the corporate/competitive surfing world.

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Hi G.I.M,

I don’t know if pesticides and fertilizers are used in plantation forests in the USA, but they are certainly not in New Zealand. The only action taken here to produce clears is pruning, which is done with a saw. I know that in some plantations sewerage is used as a fertilizer but any fertilization of plantation forests is rare here. Redwoods grow to millable size in about 15 years. We also have Paulownia plantations.

I use plantation grown timber as well as recycled and salvaged lumber.

Regards, Roy

PS NZ has the largest man made forest in the world here in the North Island. It is predominantly Monterey Pine (Pinus Radiata) which is a good boardbuilding timber. The export market for this timber has fizzled significantly, and so we have plenty of wood.

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And yes, soybean oil is a vegetable product. A little known but completely true and amazing fact is that diesal engines will run just fine on vegetable oil! You can purchase conversion kits for under a US$1000.

I just read an article about some guys driving cross country using old cooking grease from restaraunts along the way…interesting…id bet that if you could find some thats willing to give you a consistant supply of grease you could drive your vehicle for next to nothing for fuel.

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Ghost,

or 321-223-5276
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Thanks man - I’m there…

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No, I’m not feeling defensive, are you? - I just didn’t get your rant at first…

Actually there are a huge number of foam boards that are in private collections, probably a larger percentage than wood boards. I personally have more foam keepers than wood (including an old gray balsa paddleboard). I think that your personal reverence for balsa wood boards is commendable, and no I didn’t know that balsa wood was considered a weed, but I would still consider that a weed is a living entity whether it is intelligently harvested or not.

What I was referring to is that you just draw a different line and call everyone on the other side of that line a hypocrite. You are still very close to the other side from another point of reference - say body surfing or mat riding or paipo boarding or?

Also isn’t vegetable oil or cooking oil mixed with diesel to create biodiesel? I don’t have the print out handy.

Thanks for clarifying your points this go round. Your time is much appreciated on this subject.

I’m in complete agreement about the problems the corporate surf industry has caused. 100% - You speak the truth. But good luck! I think we all need to band together to figure this out - we’re all surfin’ - after all.

Living at ground zero…

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Rudolf Diesel actually designed his engine to run with vegetable oil - it was the petroleum manufacturers that put petroleum-based diesel on the market. Biodiesel can be mixed with regular diesel without any adverse effects, but “biodiesel” as it is manufactured contains no petroleum based diesel, nor needs it to be useful. Here’s a link I grabbed from my bookmards… http://savoiapower.8k.com/biodiesel.html with quick explanation of biodiesel, and a link to the book that several have mentioned about the guys driving cross country on biodiesel: “From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank”.

Anyone know what Greg uses to create his epoxy? I’m interested in the idea of vegetable oil based epoxy… Haven’t had the chance to try a true “epoxy” surfboard yet (non-surftech) but really like the idea of my boards lasting longer…

aloha

waxfoot

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Very informative waxfoot, I also was excited by the prospects of this technology - but the filling stations are owned by oil interests - so until enough “users” would request a pure vegetable content we are stuck with “biodiesel”.

If this one goes “big” it would bring a whole new meaning to driving through McDonalds?

Found this link to availability a while ago and forgot it till I saw your post!

http://www.biodieselnow.com/links.asp

Way to go Rudolf! (thanks waxfoot)

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If you Kids don’t quit fighting you are gonna get a whipping and sent to bed early.Anyway…I am all for making fuel from soybean oil.If they do that maybe the manufacturing of Tofu will come to a halt and I will never be forced to eat it again. RB

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Can’t we pour the stuff into the tank ourselves without going to the gas station?

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Follow the vegetable oil link…

Follow the vegetable oil link…

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Kids? - I don’t know about retroman but I’m old enough to be a gramps. I’ve got tons of respect for a guy who just comes out and speaks his mind like retroman did!

Actually I’m getting used to Tofu because of Native Foods, The Bohdi Tree and another vegetarian eatery in our area that makes it quite tasty!

I’m with you cleanlines, it would be cool if corn (or soybeans or?) was used in our tank instead of as a sweetner in most of our foods.

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I have a friend/client whose family is in the lumber wholesale business. Several years ago they would buy 100,000 acres of standing Canadian timber and then hire mills to log and process the wood. Now they buy total annual mill output. Then they go into the mills and try and find ways to increase production. For example, just changing to using thinner saw blades, or newer sharper mill blades, has both sped up production and increased the amount of useable lumber while decreasing sawdust. Point is through better management of the mills and better management of the forests productivity has increased and waste has decreased.

The same smart thinking is being used in the forests. Now, there is more fiber growing today than 100 yrs ago. It’s all about change. Also, there are new non-wood products for trim boards made of PVC (which I know is an environmental disaster … I know) but it’s taking more load off the lumber and paint industries since it doesnt need painting. Personally, I’m in favor of labor as trade off against pollution, but painting is also polluting.

Reports recently are linking high fructose corn syrup and obesity in Americans. I happen to be allergic to corn in all its’ forms thanks to job related hyper-chemical sensitivity.

(Time for another Claritin. Ironic isnt it?) So, I was thinking, if our nation’s companies were to be able to buy sugar at rates similar to the rest of the world, we could get that damn corn sweetener out of our food supply. That would do two things, make americans thinner and healthier for one. Second, Archer Daniels Midland could then process all that extra corn into alcohol, instead of sweetener, which, we, meaning our oil companies, could then add to our gasoline at about 15% and decrease our foreign oil dependence by an equal and corresponding 15%. With the resulting decrease in stress on our nations oil refineries combined with the decrease in demand on the spot oil market, perhaps oil prices would drop and all our surfboard resins would be less expensive. Not to mention creating a boom in the national economy.

There is a huge sugar supply right next door in Cuba. But, do we have to wait for Castro to drop dead to get at it? Why didnt we just invade Cuba instead of Iraq? Wouldnt that have been easier? Just drop the restrictions and let Americans go there and get their cigars and lay on the beaches and eat and rent hotel rooms. That would constitute an invasion. Invasion of surfers and cigar lovers and vacationers. Then, allow the US Marines from Guantanomo to R&R in Havana! Isn’t that a great idea for an invasion? Best damn invasion idea I ever heard. Then open up the sugar market for cheap sugar exports and cheaper renewable fuel sources at home. And better tasting Mountain Dew!

Our whole country needs to get smarter.

I’m beginning to believe our government thinks healthy and happy is no way to go through life? What ever happened to the words Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness?

BTW I once asked my friend if he could find KOA for me. He did. He found a small mill in HI. But that stuff is heavy, expensive, and lousy for shaping boards, because the grain is wavy. At least that’s what Mr. Channin told me.

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BTW I once asked my friend if he could find KOA for me. He did. He found a small mill in HI. But that stuff is heavy, expensive, and lousy for shaping boards, because the grain is wavy. At least that’s what Mr. Channin told me.

Sadly almost all natural koa wood in Hawaii is gone. Its a beautiful wood to make furniture with though.