Jeff, I’ve used the reversed sanding block to do concaves on bonzer style, and double concave bottoms. Good build thread, can’t wait till you do the color work.
Actually Jeff, being it is only your second vacuum bag experience, I can see you are becoming comfortable with the method and your work is showing it!
I see you have a patch of Innegra that has an edge. That has been one of my qualms about the stuff, as the edge produces a “kink” in the layers of glass above or below it. I know from experience that a step-down or kink in a layer of glass (or even worse carbon graphite,) can act as a stress riser- that means the skin could (possibly) buckle or cripple at that step. There is work being done to eliminate that step. I suggested that they produce a lower weight Innegra fabric (thus thinner) which they did, and the step is not as abrupt, but still there. Lighter Innegra required multiple layers to regain the thickness of the heavier stuff. The benefit of multiple, lighter bulk layering was that patches could be made in a graduated pattern, so the steps would be both smaller and spread out a bit.
There are ways to get Skinz to conform over a three dimensional curve but it can be labor intensive (read that not the best for production) but if time is not critical it can be cut (dry) into “lath” strips. I just had a discussion about this with another member trying to remove bending stress from bamboo veneer. Similar applies to most papers and fixed mats- something has to give. That said, I see “Everysurfer” has met success with getting finer Skinz to conform. How about using super light/thin multiple layers of Skinz? (I’ve never tried it but the thinner stuff can be forced a little to conform.)
Great idea on the inverted sanding block! Funny I was instantly reminded of one of our visiting shapers who was using a motorized sanding block this evening to also make Bonzer contours. Mike Eaton and he made this tool many years ago:
http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d55/george1gall/?action=view&current=011.mp4
(hope this is not too O/T, I’ll take it down if you object Jeff…)
George
Whoaa! Do they really use that tool? I could see myself doing some major damage with that. Or I imagine my t-shirt getting caught in it as I pull it back to inspect the damage I did on the board.
Geroge your post was not OT, at least not to me, seeing as how my last build was this-
Chipfins mentioned he wanted a ride report when I’m done and I realised I never put a ride report up of the bonzer. In brief, I felt the bonzer was too stiff, although it was intended as a step up. But since I broke my daily driver I’ve been riding it a lot and now I love it. It may have to do with putting in a thicker fin. The first one was foiled from bamboo panel made for fcs style fins (1/4"). The second one was from a thicker panel I bought from Greenlight. So a word to anyone how is trying a bonzer- give it some time.
Anyways, thinking about my lst surfs on the bonzer, at 50 years of age I’m learning how to do layback snaps. I don’t know how graceful they are but I can do them. I just thought about it this morning because I was reading an article in Surfer’s Journal about Fred Van Dyke and the phenomenon of the aging surfer. They ask Peter Cole how it is that he still goes out when so many have quit. His exact words, “Skill wise you’re just going in reverse at a certain point. So it all comes down to if you can or can’t accept that each year you become more of a kook. I don’t really have problem with that.”
OK now I’m way OT, but I love that quote…and us old guys have a certain right to go OT don’t we? What were we talking about? Oh yeah…
Today I 'm going to glass the bottom of the other board, Surfding’s secret sauce blank. I’m going to do it in skinz (flats only!) and 4oz , with no bag, just to see what the results are. My friend Andy seems to want nothing to do with vacuum bagging, but is impressed by the possibilities of a STRUCTURAL .7 oz cloth. Oh, Mark, my skinz are 0.7 ounces, purchased from Graphite Masters by way of Foamez . Foamez will special order it for you in small quantities since GM sells rolls or to commercial accounts.
Oh, and Sharkcountry, sorry to disappoint you but I’ve decided not to do color on these. Surfding’s blank had the blue XPS and I couldn’t think of anything to that would look right. I was going to do color on the Warvel blank but ended up really liking the white and cream look…
OK into the studio…
Ha ha, that’s Joe Bauguess, he makes the Mini Simmons. That tool is part of local legend, as it was used to make all of Eaton’s Bonzers (Joe shaped most of them about 10 years ago,) so he “inherited” that tool. We were joking about that powered rolling pin making him “get caught up in his work” but the man has experience, he’s been shaping as long as I’ve been alive! (I’m your age.) Super-precision guy, can’t believe how much time he spends on each shape- absolute perfection from the technical standpoint.
Wow, your work is good man, that B5 looks really fun! (You don’t happen to do airbrushing do you? I’m looking for someone parttime… haha) I think it is really cool that you are not afraid to venture into the range of surfboard building techniques. There is a lot of knowledge out there and yet there is a lot to still be understood.
I’ve done quite a bit of work with the Skinz you describe in open (hand) lay-ups. It does soak resin and has some weight to it. I have it on a personal board with single 4s bottom, single 4s deck with 0.7 Skinz 2/3 patch and it is holding up like a champ, almost no deck dents and I usually ball peen my boards pretty quickly. I should say the blank had something to do with it, Millennium foam is probably the best urethane I am coming across lately. I’ve also come across some 2.3 oz biaxial e-glass that seems to work well with 4s and is lighter than my Skinz work so far (not bagging,) it also acts as a great “cap” over rough stuff like Skinz (when open/wet) and carbon graphite.
Bagging is great for conforming lay-ups to shape, and for getting a better resin/glass ratio allowing for more glass/fiber content and thus more strength with (usually) less resin. There is research being done to provide a foam sandwich which will conform to 3D curves, hoping we see prototypes this coming year, perhaps for your next season’s build?
Keep us posted, we are really enjoying this thread!
George
I took some time before lamming the bottom of the xps/poly blank to grind down those stringers a little more. I used Mark’s tape trick and a wood file.
OK. Lammed the bottom with skinz (on flats) and 4 oz s glass. I rolled epoxy on the blank first. I didn’t seal this one as it is polyurethane and XPS. The blank looked pretty dry. Maybe I should seal even poly blanks? My friend Andy was, “Are you sure that’s all you want to put down?” We laid the skinz and rolled that. It started to look a bit saturated. Then we laid the cloth on and almost immediately I sensed that the resin on the cloth was soaking into the skinz. I had mixed 12 oz. Pulling the lam prety dry I still had dry spots on the rail laps so I mixed 1-1/2" oz more and that was more than enough. I was pretty stoked, although aware it would not be ultralight.
One thing I discovered. It helps to have a flashlight to see what’s going on underneath the board. I have good overhead lighting, so-so sidelighting, but no light gets under the board to see the laps. The flashlight helps.
There’s always something, right? Today it was when I peeled the tape after cutting the lap. Yikes!
Don’t ask me why. It didn’t pull off the the polyurethane as you can see in this photo-
If it had happened on the poly I would have just backfilled it with spackle. But this is blue. What to do? I’m thinking I will sand it down to create a slight recess for the innegra inlay. Any other suggestions? Or explanations on why it happed? I’m using 3M production painter’s tape that I always use with no problems. Michael if you read this- beware. Test your tape… or free lap!
A dark blue pin line
Jeff, I’ve done at least a half dozen Blue Dow boards, and I have not had that problem. If anything I have the opposite where the color resin bleeds a little under the tape line. You must have really good tape. Did you push it down extra hard on that edge?
Creating a recess would be perfect for an inlay except when you get to the stringer, that may be a bit harder to get it perfect.
I think the resin did bleed under the tape and that’s what pulled off. I didn’t not push down extra hard. I did notice the tape being very sticky on the other board, althought it did not pull anything off. i was thinking that maybe when I pulled vacuum it pressed the tape down hard, but this one had no vac. In retrospect I thnk I should have put it in the vac bag and pulled extra resin out.
So now, as so often happens, I have an unforeseen step in the building process. they didn’t tell me this in Boardbuilding 101!
Here’s a good tip in general for tape cut laps with epoxy. Seal the tape using 3 minute clear epoxy from FGH. Put it on using a piece of paper towel. You will get a super sharp line, no bleeds and in a lot of cases the lap can be folded back and snapped clean rather than cut with a blade.
My guess is that tape (233+ 3M?) has a chemical that, when combined with the solvent in the epoxy, melts the extruded blue.
Welcome to the delamination capabilities of XPS…
Just shows you how uniformly the foam peels away when lifting the tape…
I used it twice in the early 80’s… Never again… Glass sticks to XPS less than any other foam I’ve used… And I beat the hell out of it with a stainless steel welders brush to rough it up… I’d heard the rumours even back then…
That blue and white combo ala Tomo sure does looks trendy though, doesn’t it??
Everysurfer does test panels… Get’s lots of flak for it… But better than wasting hundred$$ on full scale board experiments…
Try a few XPS test panels compared to other common foams… Don’t have to rough up EPS or even PU with 60 grit or a spiked roller to make the glass stick… Hell you spackle smooth then epoxy seal EPS and it sticks to the glass better than DOW…
Try the shear ( or tear the glass off the foam test) with these test panels…
It’s the cerex that’s probably causing the tear out… Any non woven, be it polypropylene or nylon (cerex) seems to bond to foam of any kind better than plain fiberglass… The tape or combination of tape and cerex is tearing off the XPS… Weird…
Leads me to think that XPS is over rated…
Nice tip…
Great thread Jeff. I like the guitar tail and the E wings. Thanks for the lessons Pluseone. I've tried to explain the whole eps/spackle thing to people but they don't get it. You explained it so gracefully......
Was ACE involved in the bonzer power sander? I've seen a few Eaton's signed by Ace with amazing bonzer bottoms........maybe it's a San Diego thing.....
Stingray
Ace probably used that Rolling Pin sander, as he shaped for Eaton also. Somehow Joe got it after Mike retired and closed shop.
BtW, I don’t think the blue foam dissolved due to cerex contact. I just don’t think the cerex got under the tape to do that damage. I have seen that exact damage before with certain batches of tape. A good test would be to put tape over a sample of epoxy that is on a scrap piece of blue. Also, not all blue extruded foam is equal. Pentane content varies drastically which could result in debonding or little to no bond.
Keep the pics coming Jeff!
George
Hi Jeff:
I just got back from a trip and will start my build today with the XPS/PU.
Plus I’m adding one more to the mix.
I had 2 additional blanks made.
So it looks like I will make 3 in total.
Thanks for the heads up about the tape.
I have never used the SKINZ 0.7 Cloth before.
Normally free lap is the typical method used in our shop.
We do cut laps for resin tints and general color work.
You could always do a pinline to define your cut-lap.
I’m more concern about he way your board will surf.
You did a good job with the file you created.
I believe you will achieve a high performance surf craft.
This is like cliff diving:
I’m letting you jump first!
Watching your Summer Build Tread helps to keep my cost down.
I’m enjoying watching your progress.
Kind regards,
Michael aka surfding
PS Pretty cool tread to have George (PLUS ONE) chime in.
Jeff:
We have never used the blue tape for laminating.
I will post some pics of the laminating.
I think the first sample board will be cut lapped with the SKINZ on the first one and see how it turns out?
You gave me a good ideal on the Innegra:
I was doing a full deck patch when I used it before.
However I like your idea of minimizing.
I will do a 60% butterfly patch with 6oz innegra over my skins wrapped in 4 oz E Cloth.
My target weight is 4.5 pounds (2.04 KGs).
5’9" x 18 7/8" x 2 5/16" Groveller
I will get some 2 oz Innegra to play with as well.
I had luck with the 6 oz last time I used it.
With 1/2 a roll laying around I thought I would use it up.
Kind regards,
surfding
This is the tape I used. Standard Home Depot painter’s tape. Before this mishap I noticed it was very sticky but I thought that was a good thing.
So I decided the sand the blemishes smooth and actually make a recess for the innegra/skinz inlay. Tools of choice-
Japanese carving tools rock! I don’t know what it is about the steel they use but I have these old knives I inherited from my grandmother and they are so much better than any other cutting tools I’ve bought since…
So here’s the innegra/skinz inlay bagged on. There is still a recess so I will sand a tiny bit and do a cheater coat.
I always get this bubble at the vac attachment point. Anyone know how to solve this?
Finally, Ken that guitar is a cheap Les Paul copy. The Strat is my baby!
This is the tape I used. Standard Home Depot painter’s tape. Before this mishap I noticed it was very sticky but I thought that was a good thing.
So I decided the sand the blemishes smooth and actually make a recess for the innegra/skinz inlay. Tools of choice-
Japanese carving tools rock! I don’t know what it is about the steel they use but I have these old knives I inherited from my grandmother and they are so much better than any other cutting tools I’ve bought since…
So here’s the innegra/skinz inlay bagged on. There is still a recess so I will sand a tiny bit and do a cheater coat.
I always get this bubble at the vac attachment point. Anyone know how to solve this?
Finally, Ken that guitar is a cheap Les Paul copy. The Strat is my baby!
and a mandolin,,,,, and an acoustic,,, and
Cool Build Jeff!
The bubble just fix like a ding.
Your tail pad will cover it.
Or put a lam over it?
My 15 year daughter has a 1964 Strat.
I love the sound (surf guitar)
Kind regards,
surfding
Nice thread, really appreciate all the detailed pictures as im getting a vac pump next week and hope to have some fun with new builds…
Save yourself more grief with that tape Jeff, I dont know about what you have available over there but ive always found a Green tape best here from a car painter store or similar , its worth spending a bit more on tape saves heaps of issues. The beige one your using has caused me a few headaches as it seems to have heat sensitive adhesive and glues itself to the lam when ive done hotcoats and other things…
Ill be watching this thread… keep up the nice work!