His Hand layups make vacuum bagging a waste of time.
Kite rider if you look at what I said carefully: "His".
For anyone to say : " Vacuum bagging is a waste of time" carries the same weight as: "hand laminating is under-utilizing a glass laminate"...... Both are correct, both are incorrect...
I own a board business so from a profit point of view it can be a waste of time when you can make a complete custom board under $275 that is light, white and a strong enough deck with the right flex. I have found some different materials to add to my hand layup that are quite impressive and inexpensive. I will continue to to play with Core and Skins and use the vacuum bag were necessary. To make a $700 surfboard is easy to do and I can however you will not sell very many. Surfers are a special consumer and we need to stay senitive to that fact. Kiteboarders, Windsurfer and SUP'er usually come from a higher income bracket and have more disposable income. Surfers live to surf, working and making money is the last priority. I've seen a lot of businessmen pump heaps of cash into the surf industry because they want to be apart of something cool. I don't blame them it is cool! However to stay in business and do what you love it has to be affordable.
Vacuum bagging is super cool and there is a lot of potenial it's just that I have to do it in a way that makes sense.
The best board I have made is in a vacuum bag. The core was the key to it's success. I will return to the direction I was at 4 years ago. Today there are even better skins to work with that are cost effective. I'm still on a discovery path. If you have 20 years experience than you have 16 years on me concerning vacuum bagging. I just really started doing it so I'm a rookie compared to you. Like I said we have guy's that do hand layup so good you that you may be suprised how cheap we can build a board and how well even in California. If I was looking at it as a Hobbist then I would build a board in an Autoclave and call it a day.
In the meantime we have to get the Christmas rushes out. (All hand layups).
Let me get through the Holiday's and I will get back to vacuum madness!
I’m sorry if my reply seemed as though it was directed at your post, I assure you it wasn’t…Just the general aversion to vac bagging by many…
Great reply above, I couldn’t agree more… It’s very hard to get $500 from some of the kite boarders as well… many don’t appreciate the amount of labor and material costs that go into advanced sandwich builds…
They’ll spend thousands on kites, and $700 on " just average" production wake board style boards, but think all surfboard style boards should cost $250 or less as well… Fortunately those who know what’s in each build will pay the premium…
If I were glassing directly over 1.5 to 2# eps., I probably wouldn’t bag the boards either, as I see no real benefit in bagging to pressures as low as 7-8 in Hg.
I bag on the glass at three times that pressure due to the core-cell primary skin’s ability to withstand these pressures without crushing the boards…
The result is a very strong high fabric to resin ratio , low weight , laminate…
I didn’t mean to come off as some " pro know it all" when I mentioned 20 years of bagging,
For the record: I’d call myself an “advanced hobbiest”, who builds boards for myself and a local crew that like my work… I’ve just been in love with the hobby since 1984… I do own 3 vacuum pumps though…lol… It’s a sickness ,I think…"))
The large carbon footprint Pro surfers cause due to their demand for
high numbers of fiberglass craft has drawn the attention of EPA Agents
in the field.Following here are some outlines for new Law changes
affecting Australian Professional Surfers. The new income penalty taxes
being worked on presently in Canberra will see a proposed “Penalty
fine” of twenty five thousand dollars per board for surfers ordering
more than five craft a year in pursuit of their financial earnings.
This measure is not new, many other industries have been hit with
similar deterrents in a combined government effort to keep Australia
green. We in Canberra feel this is in everyone’s best interest’s and
are posting this early “heads up” for the Pro Surfing community to get
their affairs in order.
Yours,
Staff at E.P.A/NSCSIA Advisory Committee
wow looks like you might have to go vac all the way
Silly I'm glad you jumped in here. The General treads have become so basic. I'm on a quest to make boards that well well shaped, light, strong, easy to make. 80% of all our production is in POLY/PU. 20% is EPS/EPOXY. I see a lot of bdly shaped boards going through the bagging process and it makes me wonder how you can really validate such boards? Then you have this Bamboo Craze? For me their ugly and stiff and look like a flooring sample for a building supply center. I still think there is more exploring to do. I'm putting together a core that will get me where I want to go. Huie as given some hints and nudges along the way. I have some samples requested of different core materials as well as different cloths to achieve the right combination. Just with my standard layups I'm already making better boards with new cloths and using polyester resin. 15 minutes a side and better dent resistance that stand glassing and lighter!
AND wanting to CHARGE more for inferior product(s)
What's that SUCKING sound (and we aren't talking vac bagging here, which I'm cool with.
The sound is the gullible's wallets being sucked dry of THEIR green.
DID ANYONE SEE THE SOLUTION TO GLOBAL WARNING FROM A FOREMOST THINK TANK ON TV RECENTLY?
This featured a group of brilliant minds grouped togehter and employed solely for the reason of COMING UP WITH SOLUTION to today's problems...... and the solutions, as one of their members put it, can seem incredible (as in hard, if not impossible,) to believe. But as he put it "physics doesn't lie"...........
Solution to Global Warming = garden hose.
Solution to curbing hurricanes = funnels that recirculate weather temperatures back into the ocean.
The funnel idea would have spared a ton of people in New Orleans and SAVED MILLIONS IF NOT BILLIONS OF $.
UN-believeable..........? Uh, the plan is sponsored by BILL GATES Foundation.
So a garden hose extending 100,000 feet into the air would start saving polar bears and glaciers tomorrow much to Al Gore's dismay (he'd need to find a new job/cause). However, I suggest a NO FLY ZONE around the hose)s_.
for me im very interested in design . i feel that rockers are so critical that at this stage i prefer to handshape them rather then press them in. i like the composite idea but would prefer the bottom to be handshaped with a composite deck . so flat board is basically out the window for me unless the deck skin holds the rocker… are we back to adjustable rocker tables? i posted a simple design of one ages back but never built it. huies is pure genius but not adjustable. the UV poly boards seem pretty tuff. keen to get midgets foam for a composite deck shaped bottoms. should easily see a years duty i believe
i dont understand why people feel the need for he board to last forever. nothing last forever. warning bells go up when customers want overly stong boards or boards with custom colour work. there is no money in that stuff. board needs to be completed in a half a day with 2 day turn around and be easily repaired by the end user for low cost.
personaly im back at urethane for cores. i cant stress enough how critical rocker is on short boards and how variations suit different surfing styles. lower entrys are more relevant for older heavier guys. for me design is the most interesting aspect. i can try new ideas with rapid turn around and low cost using poly/pu. the boards hold up well considering the cost.
also in other sports mostly people want to upgrade equipment so have a board that last for ages is a moot point . a couple of years is plenty IMO
thank god we can see through this giant scam how the f###k are they going to tell how many boards a pro surfer has per yr. i tell you we here in aus are in the grip of a regime with maniacal tendencys
how come you let that idiot gore lose haaaa’’
enough politics at this point i prbly get flamed’’
This seems to happen to every good Composite thread.
Everyone concludes that there is no money in it.
I thought the point was to build a superior surf board?
I think longer lasting, field repairable, hydrophobic, surfboards that rides as good or better than anything on the market is a valid pursuit. In custom shapes, and with as little environmental impact as possible. They will look cool, because i am cool. These are my design criterium.
Define what your design goals are and stick to them. Obviously, time and materials have to be considered in the equation. But, even pros don't like to prematurely lose a good board. The one board for every condition, that lasts forever at any price, is not reasonable.
SurfDing, I have to trip up to your shop and see your toys! Please keep up the good work.
I'm staying the coarse. But, I make my living elsewhere...
well now… I agree with you, Huie, Silly, Ding… yeah good points made all the way around. As Ding knows, I’ve done a sh-t load of R&D and leading edge stuff in my time. However, I also agree with silly’s pragmatism about reasonable product and turn around, and Monkey’s statement that a board for everything, just ain’t realistic.
I was told HOT baby!
I had a young guy ride for me that wanted lighter lighter lighter, then one day his Irish mother came into the factory and cussed me out because her son had “put his foot thru the deck at Rincon”.
I never saw the board to back her claim but she was also HOT AS NITRO.
I just got hired to shape a 60’s label that originated in Goleta. The first one is a 10’6". The order says “Wall Hanger”. Gee, does it get glass with 10 oz or 2 oz???
Define your design specs, make them quantifiable, then R&D.
Lighter, and Stronger than a Pu/PE at the same demensions. Yet, able to sell at the same price point.
Or
Best material combo for Rapid prototyping designs.
Or
Less environmental impact.
If gold was the best material to make a surfboard would you use it?
Business and R&D don't mix very well. Failure is part of the R&D process. In Business failure means you lost a lot of money.
So when designing products be clear on where they fit in the market place. If your goal is to make money then use that as a design constraint. Define your design contraints and invent a process to get your there...
My answer is :::: 1 to 1.5# eps core, 1/8" to 1/4" corecell skin… Add 1/40" veneers for durability and looks… Vacuum bag skins and laminate at 24" hg+ and walk away with a killer board…
My point is what is the best combination of core and skins?
Business and R&D don’t mix very well. Failure is part of the R&D process. In Business failure means you lost a lot of money.
I disagree with that statement. 25% of your profits can go back in to R&D and drive your company forward through innovation. I have been playing with different cores and skins and I find a lot of them to be a waste of time. Having said that I have found many other materials that are cost effective and yield a light, white, stronger product than a standard PU/Poly (bag or no bag). With the bag there are some interesting variations. Without the bag I have made some boards that are pretty much there. I still have a few cool combination in the works. To post these workings would be a waste of everyones time so I won’t put you or anyone else through the torment. Once my videos are made I will post with actual surfing to back it up.
In repect to Huie, Deadshaper or Silly on of the requirements is to be cost effective and marketable. This is posted on Industry Notes. We all have a invested interest. To build the ultimate board I already know how to do that. $1200 and I can make them all day long. Since surfers don’t and won’t pay that kind of money I have to look at the best built surfboard for a reasonable cost. It can cost slightly more. 3x the price is a tuff sell. I enjoy building boards like most of the people here on swaylocks. If I can make enough to cover the expense and put a few pieces of lettuce in my wallet it’s all good.
Define your design contraints and invent a process to get your there…
Monkeyshines: Your basicaly preaching to the choir on that statement! That’s the Ideal!
Your more than welcome to check out my man cave as ALOAF calls them.
Interesting thread .... I think Kwik Kick is going to change some minds. The stuff is strong.
BTW, WMD (timberflex) was never about just bamboo, it was about veneers. Lots of different ones are available.
Also, I've been seeing some nice results with Innegra lately in FL. Kinda surprised Mike Daniels hasn't dropped into this discussion. Those guys have been at this for 20 years. Maybe they don't want to give anything away.
Greg: I still use the RR and It works well in the bag and don't see a need for your new sauce just yet. However I just might make a couple of boards with it to compare?
I don't mean to dis the Bamboo it's just that all the pro kids won't walk down to the beach with one in their arms because cosmetically it looks like flooring from Home Depot. The WMD looks like a great build however with a different veneer other than bamboo?
Combo cores with mixed material are the key I feel. It doesn't take a PHD in Engineering from MIT to make a surfboard. I thought it might be cool to share different concepts with those who enjoy inovation and not following a trend or fad. I slowed down my sharing process due to the lack of interest in this concept of CORE and SKINS. It seem that you have hit a home run with the WMD Bamboo board that is the big buzz with swaylockians. Mike Daniels has his thing dialed in as he has the biggest fan base on swaylocks.
I worked with Innegra and we did a series of boards with it. Brett Simpson (US OPEN 09 Winner) and my son were riding the silver bullet today. Waiting for the feed back? Huie in OZ is the most sucessful with it to date concerning Innegra. Recently I have found some nice material that is white, light and strong with out sacrificing the way it surfs. Plus it's way less expensive. Our shop is a big comsumer of your RR and I will continue to use it however it will be with a different combination that what is consider the standard on the General treads.
Have you seen Huies boards with the Lacewood bottoms? Those are nice looking. Performance and good looks is not a bad concept?