The Surfer's Journal - Vol 14, No 4

General Discussion
181
Quote:

EPS delam and bubbling? Here’s exactly what I mean about you guys being inexperienced. EPS almost NEVER delaminates. XPS does. You guys use XPS which almost EVERYONE in the southeast dumped 15 years ago because it bubbled and delaminated. Why on earth would you guys use that stuff?

Greg,

Would you please explain the mechanism behind the delamination of XPS? What exactly is the difference within the two materials (EPS and XPS in relation to this application and this problem) and the reactions that casue this delamination?

I’ll try my best, feel free to get technical.

If it hasn’t been documented at a molecular level, I’m interested in hearing what the theories are at a more physical level.

Thanks

Jimmy

182

Oly Croist

blessed MAIRY

and tired beleagured Joseph

lest another wave be demoralized

lt us pause and say Velzy,Downing,Frosieth,and Kelly

may we love these waves as much as they have in their lifetimes

…ambrose…

diff said Conrad did a carving 360 on a balsa board in the early years

. Conrad was a milkman

183

So true Bruce, but surfers rarely stay with the same thing for very long. I am suprised thrusters are still the dominant board after so many years. The creativity of the sport has been lost somewhat for the bulk of the last 15 years. Surfers wear the same clothing, and pretty much ride the same series of boards.

184

The American consumer. Part fickle, part addicted: Deadly combination.

We havn’t seen this combination of consumerism, dangerous oil price increases, attack on our indigenous industries by foreign competition, and war since the early 1970’s. It inspired the first hippie to develop his theory of the Demon Box.

BTW; Anyone remember the first US industry attacked by a foreign competitor. Clue NYC/NC and it has never come back. (Answer at end of post).

Ken Kesey came to my college in 1973. He gave a lecture on what he termed the Demon Box. Basically it was about the human brain and how it consumes. I don’t remember particulars and I havn’t read the book in 15 years. So basically I plead dumb.

But basically he said all our problems exist inside the heads of individual Americans. Our brains are messed up. There is a choice, a decision making, mechanism in our heads that is out of control. It is what makes us consume massive quantities of everything. It’s why the rest of the world hates us and why we are so addicted, we can’t see it or stop it. That new car smell and the feeling we get when we smell it, the want, the desire for everything Madison Ave sells us. Sex is the base of it. Buy a Surftech and get laid. Anyone see the Electric eyeware ad in the new TWS? Nice sticker placement, dudes. Now what do they sell, again??? Beats me.

I recall the best line from the broadway hit and flop Madonna movie “Evita” about the wife of Chilean Dictator Juan Perone (I never saw either, but read the play) and this quote sums it all up…

“All I want is a whole lot of excess.”

Answer: The 1st American industry targeted by the Japanese in the 1970’s was the garment and textile industry. We lost it. China has it now.

185

"Then there are those that are quite knowledgable who state that there’s nothing new when all it is is they haven’t used a bit of creativity to pull some things together. Again, haven’t applied themselves. And then they complain when Randy French steals their business. Perhaps “steals” isn’t the right word. Perhaps he’s earning their business away from them. Nothing new? It’s right in your face! Like Bert said, denial. "

As a consumer, not a shaper, all I’ve got to say is “right on, Greg”. You nailed it. Surftech didn’t steal my business, they just made a better product for my style of surfing in my local conditions.

And for that matter, so does Davo in Florida and so did (do?) you. By the way, I had one of those 18 1/2 inch epoxy boards you made in the early 90’s. It was a 6’2" twinzer (big twin fins with slits cut out in the middle) with a [=1]heinous paint job (multi-colored streaks). In 1992 or 93, I had never seen fins like that, and it looked kind of fun, so I bought it used pretty cheaply at Ocean Sports. [ 3]It was pretty fun until I gained 20 lbs.[/]

Even though the board had a rough glass job, I was sold on epoxy. As far as I know, the local shapers still aren’t making custom epoxy boards, but more and more people (good, experienced surfers) are ordering them from out of state shapers (like Davo and Natural Art, which I think is Davo, too) and/or getting Surftechs. [/]

186

"I do not fear the Surftechs, and the Bics; for crying out loud, nobody I know who is serious about surfing wants anything to do with them. They only sell to those who will never stick with it anyway. When the dust settles, their boards will be plowed under in landfills everywhere. "

You’ve got to be kidding, right? Until you realize that not all surfing happens in your local conditions, maybe you should stay out of your garage. The resin fumes have gone to your head.

I’ll concede that Bics are synonymous with funshape (same in the windsurfing world, too–good for almost anything, excellent for nothing), but the Surftechs offer way more performance in a variety of shapes for a variety of conditions. Even moreso for custom epoxy shapes. I know a lot of talented local people that have already ditched their old polyester boards that just don’t work as well in our local conditions in order to get a Surftech or custom epoxy that will out perform and outlast their polyester counterparts. Maybe not as much for longboards, but certainly so for fish and performance shortboards.

187

I got a call one morning in winter 2002 from a world champ. I had just been reading about him on the Intenet. He was supposed to be somewhere in the Indian Ocean or South Pacific at a contest for some kind of mass produced longboard.

So I asked him about it. He said he had thought about it and pulled out of the contest. He said the board company just didn’t have much soul.

But I pushed or more info. I asked about the money, I said there is $10K on the line. He said it costs almost that much to get there and that it was only for first place.

I’d say the future of the industry needs more people like him.

The real fuel of the industry is ego (not price or technology). But you can sell price and technology with ego. So Bert and Greg and anyone else interested in making a splash it’s your ego that is your strongest and best ally. Nothing wrong with that, because that is all there is. Be true to yourself.

The heart of the industry is in it’s soul. That is not for sale.

188

It’s just another industry. The soul is in all the people involved. Some use it wisely, some don’t. Again it’s just another industry, make a product, make a buck. Make a better product, make more bucks.

189

I don’t accept that answer. This sort of view is just wishy washy. Besides being a grotesque over simplification, where is the substance? There is absolutely no support for your claim.

Couldn’t you put a little more effort into it than that? I mean, you have to do a little better if you want to make a worth while contribution to this thread. Don’t just come on here, late, and expect to write me and everyone off in one line and expect it to stand without a challenge.

“It’s just another industry.”, man.

This is not sound marketing analysis. On what basis do you make that claim?

This is too random. It’s not the level of thought this thread has been operating on for a long time.

“The soul is in the people involved.” What does that mean?

As for the rest if it was that simple we’d all be zillionaires. But there are a lot of people making better products and not making a buck. And a few who are. What do you say to them?

If this is your final answer I’d have to fail it. Nothing personal, no more personal than your cursory write off of my observations.

I once had a professor who said, college is not preparation for life, it is life. YOU will get graded every day of your life.

190

Wow, you take life way to seriously, and personally.

The thread needed simplification.

Sorry I was late sir, do you need a note from my mum?

191

Please don’t anyone take this personally…its directed at this thread in general and not any specific participants…but:

192

An interesting TSJ it was.

Makes me want to build a board…

It is too bad that so few of the shapers interviewed seem interested in trying out new materials. What happens if Clark and Walker are no longer in the mix in a few years?

They printed a note I sent them about the Trent interview too… it will serve as a warning to me to remember to Not write to publications late at night - though I still think the disclaimer they put in the liner notes section was overkill.

Off to the archives to study up on Bonzer concaves, Carbon, Kevlar, and #1 EPS.

Eric J

(good avatar Benny)

193
Quote:

Bert- The Sleeping Dragon has awakened. China will soon produce all kinds of popular surfboards with the highest quality, in greater numbers and at lower cost than anyone else in the world. It is a fool’s dream to imagine there is protection in fiddling with design, material, process variables. Change for change’s sake will not protect any surfboard builder for long.

ok so who is going to fund a project that has the potential for 90% of the product to go unsold because its no longer in fashion …

yea great , they can mass produce all sorts of boards maybe some of them will sell , if they happen to be the in vogue designs …

cheap massed produced generic designs are only a safe financial investment if you can sell them all …

if your being forced to dump out of date stock , youll soon look at other areas to make a buck …

a retailer showed me a catalogue for custom made asian boards …

you had a choice of any rocker , any outline , any thickness , rail profile , bottom contour , fins and setts , and a selection of graphics …

all the customer had to do was tick the box next to whatever selection they wanted to create a board with the variables of there choice …

the retailer took no orders from it …

he said to me "that even tho people have all these choices and can get any board they want , we still need people like you to tell us what works with what ".

he then adds " everyone comes in and has no idea what to combine with what coz they dont understand board design "…

guys with fin problems come in and say there board doesnt work …

i look at there board , look at there fins , then get all there fins and say " put this fin here and those fins there and itll work …"

2 weeks later … wow it goes off now unreal …

parker , you underestimate the value of service …

yes you can go buy any board you want , but will it work for you???

will the chinese shaper be able to tell you what you need , for your size , weight , style , wave preferences , ability, age , gender, fashion, location …

you cant sell that stuff in a retail outlet …

im seeing more and more surfers just plain old riding the wrong boards , the boards arent that bad in most cases …

because no one is qualified to point them in the right direction …

call me a fool then …

i believe the custom board market done right can never be killed …

personal service , selling boards with the most current up to date tech …

putting the right guy on the right board and then making sure he gets looked after for all his after market needs …

not wander back to the retail outlet , deal with a different bimbo , and try for another lucky dip …

a well designed poopee , will still perform better than a bad designed sandwich epoxy …

crew are still riding poopee , because a quality performance alternative hasnt been offered to them yet …

ok so a few got lucky with a surftech that suited and there happier than ever …

theres a message there …

an epoxy sandwich designed to suit and you will never go back …

whos going to design it for you ???

99% of todays current custom shapers to date have expressed no interest in building boards out of alternate materials …

parker , yes china and asia have awakened , but they have no advantage if were 2 steps ahead and can offer custom , in the highest quality and the latest tech …

i just hope 99% percent of custom board makers wake up before china does …

yes they can stall and keep pushing the status , that will give moulded sandwich more and more room to infiltrate the market with a bigger range , because people want the technology and are prepared to sacrifice a little performance and lack of customisation to have it …

custom sandwich , and no one will look at a moulded board , except a kook looking for a cheap learner board …

unless youve got a better idea parker , for keeping some sort of industry at home and keeping a talented surfboard designer in business , because if we dont do our hardest to keep designers in place , youll be forced into entering a lottery every time you want to buy a board …

unless someone can convince me this isnt a logical direction based on my 22 years in this business and having experience with the whole range of construction techniques , and seeing how the market and surfers react to the variety of choices , then im sticking with this line of reasoning until persuaded otherwise …

and i am open to persuasion , if anyone puts up logical reasoning , then im open …

to someone who doesnt make boards for a living , maybe the importance isnt there …

but it will be a sad day when there are no designers and shapers , and we are looking through massive asian board catalogs and scouring archival records of swaylocks trying to figure what may work for us …

thats probably when youll pay the guy who mows your lawn , 50 bucks to pick your board out of the catalog …

regards

BERT

194
Quote:

But basically he said all our problems exist inside the heads of individual Americans. Our brains are messed up. There is a choice, a decision making, mechanism in our heads that is out of control. It is what makes us consume massive quantities of everything. It’s why the rest of the world hates us and why we are so addicted, we can’t see it or stop it. That new car smell and the feeling we get when we smell it, the want, the desire for everything Madison Ave sells us.

??? Never trust a Prankster…

To paraphrase or maybe even quote the great American philosopher Ed Abbey, “The trouble with Indians is that they’re just as stupid as you and me.” Before the Indigineous People’s Defense League gets going on me let me point out that the meaning of what Abbey wrote is simply that people are people.

I can’t buy that only Americans respond to stimuli like this. Even the 9/11 terrorists supposedly visited a strip bar some time before they took their Last Rides. Look that one up in the Koran…

Of course in the U.S. we certainly have mass quantities of stumuli and access to goods and we do consume more than the average meatsack. I’m just offering the notion that put anybody else in position and you’ll get pretty much the same responses.

Advertising guru Jay Chiat once wrote that he thought people make purchasing decisions based on who they think they are, not who they may really be. Human nature rather than conditioning. There is a huge application of that notion to surfing and extreme sports marketing. Hence Laird Hamilton is Advertising Gold although what he does influences the actions of a fraction of 1% of people who surf, while Joel Tudor slides quietly though modern media consciousness, a drop of water who has and still could create large waves of influence.

195

“You are watching the end of the industry as we know it.”

Consider the following cogent observations from blakestah:

You know who the laborers are in China? Not the Chinese

… they run the shops. Pakistani and Afghani immigrants are often the grunts… they run to China to make dramatically higher wages than they could earn at home. These guys are working WAY harder than you or I on a daily basis, and improving their lives and the lives of their families WAY more than you and I do. If you don’t believe me you need only visit there once…

Now, I don’t have much tolerance for IP theft. However, I recognize that one could take a half dozen different high performance shortboard thrusters from different manufacturers, define common features, and make a really good high performance thruster, without copying anyone. The reality is that there is very little IP protection in the shapes of surfboards, and people are pushing the envelope of what is tolerable very hard.

Our government, and the governments of other nations, have created a scenario by which labor outsourcing makes the owners of the companies a lot of money. There is no fighting it, in the long run. I’ve seen it before - so have you. You are old enough to remember when Detroit ruled, when “buy American” in the auto industry was the rallying call, when people buying Japanese cars were heckled, and when people finally realized that they made cars better than Americans. Sure, we could build a better car, but it would cost a lot more. That doesn’t make it taste any better, but at least you can see it coming.

In fact, you know of other signs it is coming, too. The average age of shapers is growing. Young people are not doing it. The youngest shapers, by and large, are our age. You look at the next 20 years behind us, and there are

1/10th as many shapers, and even fewer glassers. You know there is only one place it is gonna go.

You are, of course, in a very different position than I

wrt work and the industry. It is not an easy place to be. You are watching the end of the industry as we know it.

25 years from now there will be no new young punk shapers and glassers coming to you for advice… only hobbyists who have other jobs and don’t view making surfboards as a viable vocation in America.

I used to wonder if it would ever really happen. This summer we went on vacation to an East Coast beach. They had Chinese boards, Merricks, Lost, and Rusty’s, all on the same rack. The quality, for the first time I can recall, was indistinguishable. The Chinese boards were resin tinted, glossed, and looked like they came from Strive or Moonlight. The Merricks were clear and sanded and cost $150 more. That is the challenge that is coming. A surfboard with gloss and resin tint that looks awesome even to the trained eye for $150 less than you can produce a clear and sanded…

Now, the shops in and around SF are not carrying it yet.

But you know it is coming… just go to an East Coast surf shop.

196

yea mark , i will agree you do have a serious side …which isnt a bad thing …

i had to laugh when wildy posted his response about the note …

but benny’s dead horse , had me in stitches …

that was classic …

so do we take up the same arguement in a different thread …??

i dont think were flogging a dead horse completly …

are we ??

am i wasting my time ?

hm ?

hey greg maybe benny is right?

maybe we are wasting our time ?

what if we just teamed up with the chinese and burried these guys ??

any swayrurkers out there looking for a golden opportunity ???

regards

BERT peking surfburger , hm that could work ??

197

The Chinese have time on their side, plus shitloads of money and technological advancements. Combine that with a highly motivated work force. It’s naive in the extreme to anticipate all their surfboards will remain “generic”.

Ask yourself what has happened to 90% of the master tailors, shoemakers, luthiers, woodcarvers, sign painters, leatherworkers, or glass blowers. The list goes on and on.

198

John Locke said money is stored energy.

Well gas prices going up is proof of that.

Less energy in storage means higher prices for what energy is available. Higher prices means less buying power. Afterall, money is just paper.

Our money is more and more worthless daily.

Savings are drying up. Too serious for some?

Guess so.

Yeah, never trust a prankster.

Never trust anyone was what he was really saying.

And don’t bother me with your trip was another of his pearls of wisdom. This goes along with your point that people are not who they think they are.

So, anyway, why should we listen to that freak? Well for one he invented and mass marketed his greatest invention:

Multi-Media. Remember he is the guy who conceived and financed the Acid tests with profits from his broadway production of Cookoos Nest and his book sales. Documented in the book Electric Kolaid Acid Test by New Journalism journalist, Tom Wolf. Is it any wonder the current state of the art ultimate expression of that, the computer industry, should have grown up in the Bay area? Lot of Freaks. (see attachment, p.s. Apple was just as bad, p.s.s. this is funny) NO surprise to me.

About the power in a drop of water… I Googled power in a drop of water and found this. Kind of interesting.

http://www.cns-snc.ca/history/waterdrop/waterdrop.html

199
Quote:
The Chinese have time on their side, plus shitloads of money and technological advancements. Combine that with a highly motivated work force. It's naive in the extreme to anticipate all their surfboards will remain "generic".

China has no technology advantages. Everything they can do we can do better or the same, usually costing more money.

Surfboard retailers can today get good Pu/Pe boards wholesale for $230 shortboard, under $300 longboard. A friend of mine just got a Chinese longboard (which was my name for it - Chinese longboard) for $275 from an importer. He rode is at half dozen times, and then sold it on Craigslist for $500. I looked at the board closely, it was painted yellow, glassed well, with a plastic fin. If you put a real fin on it you could sell it for $500 new easily.

200

Hey Bert

not to be a task master but shouldn’t you be getting back to work and start cranking a ton of boards out so we can actually buy a “surfburger” here in Hawaii…

Otherwise I’m just going to buy an Aviso hollow carbon from Jeff Johnson instead… (www.avisosurf.com).

Yup while everyone one’s talking here, Halun and Aviso are already going to market…

Nah just kidding and wishing I guess…

But you can see my point regarding “availability” of all this “new tech” versus “imagining” about it.

Kind of like you don’t get Greg’s Resin Research story till you actually use it for a while…

As far as outsourcing or core competancies… doesn’t sound like anyone here works for a company employing over 2000 staff and is listed on the exchange to answer to… oh my god… “shareholders” QS and all the others will soon find how fickle an investor can be and who your master really is… Worse yet dig up some venture capitalists and see what those guys will do to you… Remember that movie “Wallstreet”… aint too far from the truth…

Anyway some pitiful observations from the business sidelines…

Observation 1:

3-4 years ago if you walked into a Hawaiian Island Creations surfshop it’d be rare to see a Surftech as only Dave at Surfco and SurfnSea used to stock them… Today most of the “floor space” is dedicated to either surftechs, NSPs or chinese imports. The regular Polys are suspended from ceiling racks where you can’t touch them… Almost like they were there as artwork versus product… Now this is a shop with a line up of Tokoro, Arakawa, Morgan etc etc so this tells me that they don’t expect to sell these guy’s boards via retail… So the shift is there… Surftechs, NSPs, Chinese products are viewed with no difference than the shirts and shorts that permeate the floor space. Take a good look at your typical large scale surf shop today… How much floor space is dedicated to clothes versus board racks… Tells you how they view boards nowadays. Again I’m talking about Local Motion Waikiki, HIC, T&C and in someways SurfandSea where the majority of sales are occurring… Go to Bill’s shop or Barry’s Boardriders shop in Haleiwa and count the number of boards on display versus bicycle gear or clothing… Kind of seems surfing has become how you dress versus what you do… Ever notice how many shops have a “do not touch” sign next to the boards? What does that tell me about their customers?

Observation 2:

Boards are boards… Okay so poly’s are crap or at least cheap poly’s… Yeah but so are most customs you get unless you spend a little if not alot extra for “s” or gloss or 6 versus single 4… So I’m talking to some underground brudda’s “cousins” who surf hardcore spots but mostly work construction as is the norm for ex-rippers… What do they tell me… Costco, Sams Club and now these chinese Island Creations are the best kept secret for the undergrounders… These are guys who grew up surfing “anything” and can rip on a woolworth styro special… To them close is good enough, and cheap is even better, they ride-em till they break them then on their next monthly expedition to Costco/Sams Club pickup a new one like they do with their cases of “bottled water” which is also an irony here in Hawaii… So it tells me that cost not performance is always going to be an issue. Especially for those not playing the spoiled brat high school surfer dude role till they get a job get married, have a bunch of kids, buy a house with humongous payments and get fat eating fast foods… Custom? maybe for christmas or birthday as a gift, but not by choice…

Observation 3:

“The deal boys…” Yeah these are the hardcore guys that pride themselves at getting the best possible equipment at cost. You know the ones in the lineup that are always showing off the state of the art custom designs they got for $200-$300 less than what you would have to pay cause they know someone who knows someone… A boardmaker’s ultimate nightmare… The freebie hardcore who doesn’t want to pay for the “labor” only materials cost.

Real poopee doods…

Conclusion:

So between the mass market retail surf shops that are in it for pure business reasons, which I don’t blame them because they have to pay me back on their notes as well as show me quarterly that they are worthy of keeping their credit ratings, to the “costco, walmart, sam club, kmart, navy exchange” hard cores who are also looking out for their bottom lines so they can still go to disneyland or vegas with the family or fillup gas every week in their ford 150’s, dodge hemi’s construction mobiles, to the ripper hardcore doods who only want to pay for “materials” to the builder… How is this poor struggling backyard custom industry going to survive it’s own self demise?

Answer… By staying small and staying focused

Look and listen to what’s going on at the design surfermag forum it’s all group 3 mentality and they think this pe/pu versus epoxy discussion here is a joke. They rage against surftechs and popouts while not noticing or understanding the ramifications of the huge cleverly disguised Min Fang custom epoxy banner add flashing on the right side of their screen in their own little exploiting magazine sponsered discussion world…

Does the poly versus epoxy argument change where any of this is going?

I don’t think so…

Cause the folks in groups 1 through 3 are the ones who’ve really changed the business as we all know it and I just don’t see them caring as to which one survives…

This is kind of like arguing where there’s life on another planet.

While you can’t seem to fix the problem with the shuttle panels…

I agree with Ben… I now turn the hanging rack of frozen beef over to the next Rocky Balboa…

Time to actually build something…