I never said China has technological “advantages”. I said “advancements”. “Everything they can do we can do better or the same, usually costing more money”
So guess who wins?
Okay, okay…before everyone gets their panty’s in a twist. Back in 1983 I ran La Jolla Surf Systems. We used to get monthly truckload deliveries of Mach 7-7 boogie boards. We would blow threw them faster than any other product on the shelves. It was a fad. A few years ago you could look in 85% of the garages in the South West and you’d find some dusty old boogie board that hardly ever got used. The fad had died long before. But, did that kill Custom X? Nope their core client base has just continued on. Currently, if you open those same garages, I’m confident that you’ll find some mass produced surfboard. It’s a fad that the market is attempting to capitalize on. But, this fad is self-limiting. You can only cram so many beginners in at a limited number of easily accessed, life guard supervised, snack bar supported beaches. Pretty soon Johny’s mom is going to get upset that her little angel might get cut or bruised in the caous that over crowded surfing produces. The shift is already occurring with the rapid development of water parks (what a putrid cess pool they are). But, their popularity is undeniably increasing. As long as there are sheeple that are willing to spend their money on the cool factor. Big corperate will try to figure out a way to get that dollar. But, the core market will always gravitate towards suppliers with a passion for the sport and the lifestyle.
When in business you always have to stay ahead of the competition. It’s time we stopped pontificating and naval gazing and started adding value to the products we make. You should see the sweet set of fins sitting on my desk right now.
“Dodge this!”
This whole thread can be boiled down to two topics; Cheap Imports, and The Future of the Custom Surfboard.
As far as Cheap Imports are concerned, I’ve always wondered what was going to happen once every garage in the USA, Australia and Western Europe has an import cheapie sitting in the rafters. I think market saturation will regulate them more than competion. Are they going to try selling to the emerging world or third world? You need more than disposable income for surfing; you need disposable time. Both are in short supply when you are working your ass off to feed yourself and your family or are dodging narco/political violence.
I’m not sure the Chinese understand the fadism that is surfing beyond the core addicts. Once there is a dip in the world economy, the surfing bubble will burst and the overseas factories will close faster then steel mills in Pennsylvania. You thought the American capitalist was heartless…the world hasn’t yet met the Chinese capitalist in a shrinking economy.
I think the custom market will shrink but not disapear. The core surfer (five to ten+ years of surfing) is still going to want a custom board every now and then. I think that unless environmental restrictions prohibit them, the pu/pe board will have its place as will the epoxy (that includes molds, hollows, exotic skins, whatever). The custom shaper/laminator will have to be more versatle with their construction techniques to survive. That versatility is going to be the major factor in being able to compete with the imports and its going to be a death knell for a lot of close minded builders.
There is a scenerio that scares me though. If the new core surfer never gets on a custom board and buys into the yearly “model” change (like snow skis), the custom market will surely die within a generation.
(Sorry for repeating some of Tom’s thoughts…I was writing and did not see his post)
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I think the custom market will shrink but not disapear. The core surfer (five to ten+ years of surfing) is still going to want a custom board every now and then. I think that unless environmental restrictions prohibit them, the pu/pe board will have its place as will the epoxy (that includes molds, hollows, exotic skins, whatever). The custom shaper/laminator will have to be more versatle with their construction techniques to survive. That versatility is going to be the major factor in being able to compete with the imports and its going to be a death knell for a lot of close minded builders.
There is a scenerio that scares me though. If the new core surfer never gets on a custom board and buys into the yearly “model” change (like snow skis), the custom market will surely die within a generation.
Funny…I was going to make the first point above way long ago in this thread. Didn’t anyone notice a high percentage guys of the guys interviewed are doing retros, specialty logs, or have highly varied shaping skills (thinking stretch here with kiteboards, sailboards AND surfboards to deal with shaping)? And then you have the traditional shortboard shapers…two of which are shaping for three of the best surfers on the planet, and one other guy who knows his wave better than any other shaper in the world. Now, that’s why their jobs aren’t in jeopardy. The overseas market doesn’t have Diffendorfer to turn to for shaping pedigree. No one has explained the subtleties of a nose-rider to them. There’s never going to be a Gene Cooper come out of Taiwan. There’s a buzz about Mabile and GH just like there’s a buzz about Pavel and Hynson because these guys have been doing it long enough to know what works and they can shape a TON of different boards. Bonzer? Twinzer? Single? Trad thruster? 80’s Twinnie? No doubt, they could cut it like they used to and make improvements on it. So…when the overseas producers start sending students over here to learn from the experts (like they do in the field of science in our universities), that’s when the pu/pe will die. Hell…that’s how shapers should be covering their margins! TUITION! Me, I’m all for new materials…but I still believe that someone who has known a wave all their life, makes boards for that wave and customizes them to people who come to surf that wave will have a market. It just might not be a big enough one to justify full page double spread ads in the rags and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’ve got a 169 Morrow Master series from 1998; foam core, with 6 individual torsion boxes on each rail that I dropped 25-30 footers on last season. Not custom, but I’m not buying anything to replace it just “cause the new gear is out”.
" Wow, you take life way to seriously, and personally.
The thread needed simplification.
Sorry I was late sir, do you need a note from my mum? "
Thanks for sharing your opinions.
Maybe I need to start a thread,
how do I remove this target off my back:-)
Whew.
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"I do not fear the Surftechs, and the Bics; for crying out loud, nobody I know who is serious about surfing wants anything to do with them. They only sell to those who will never stick with it anyway. When the dust settles, their boards will be plowed under in landfills everywhere. "
You’ve got to be kidding, right? Until you realize that not all surfing happens in your local conditions, maybe you should stay out of your garage. The resin fumes have gone to your head.
I’ll concede that Bics are synonymous with funshape (same in the windsurfing world, too–good for almost anything, excellent for nothing), but the Surftechs offer way more performance in a variety of shapes for a variety of conditions. Even moreso for custom epoxy shapes. I know a lot of talented local people that have already ditched their old polyester boards that just don’t work as well in our local conditions in order to get a Surftech or custom epoxy that will out perform and outlast their polyester counterparts. Maybe not as much for longboards, but certainly so for fish and performance shortboards.
Your last comment is where I think Surftech and that tech have the most merit. Of course I think the modern or so called modern shortboard is a joke for the vast majority of surfers over 18, but in the area of thin low float boards and really short boards, that tech has it’s advantages.
On most everything else, I just don’t see it as far as how it rides. Also, you can really tell nothing by how many rippers ride something. Absolutely nothing. Most of those guys look for the deal and could ride a barn door. The intermediate and less advanced surfers actually benefit more from good equiptment designed properly.
Also on Chinese takeover: I stand by my comments on surfers that shop in retail stores being fickle. Heck half of them think they know more than the shaper about what they should ride and will go with fad over common sense advice most of the time. Don’t be mistaken, Surftech and boardsworks are at this point, fads…lets see in another five or ten years where the wind blows them.
As for craftsmanship of surftechs and chinese glass boards: I think it’s pretty darn good on both. Regardless of how I feel about the entire import thing, nothing is wrong with the quality. It’s at least on par with what is considered the best of of popular brands like Lost and Merrick.
I’m glad the horse got a few smiles.
Bert, I think you misunderstood me. I happento agree with you 100% that there will always be a market for personalized, local (relatively) equipment. It may not ever be the biggest market segment, but it will not die. 10-15% is still a sh!tload of boards.
And meanwhile, I also agree that the cheapest pop-out mass-marketed crap will always be large & always be unstable. For every Chinese factory in operation today, there will be a factory in India or Vietnam or Uzbekistan in a decade. Its the way of the world.
I happen to be, basically, an exporter of raw materials. Scrap paper & cardboard for the 3rd world / emerging markets to recycle into new boxes to put crap in that they ship back & sell to us.
In 1991, my main market was still Japan. Japan was still manufacturing product & needed boxes to put it in.
By 1995, there was a worldwide shortage of scrap paper. Korea was in full swing & China had just entered the market.
Today, Japan is a net exporter of scrap paper. They collect the used boxes full of product & ship them back to China just like we do. Because their manufacturing is offshore as well. In just 10 years.
And I’m selling more & more scrap every month into India, Pakistan, Phillipines, & Ecuador. China is mature. Haven’t sold cardboard to Japan this century.
Its not just boxmaking. Its everything.
But sorry (sorry Mr. dead horse), back to the point: There are still the Weyerhaeusers & Georgia-Pacifics of the country, making such nice, strong, dark brown boxes that high-end stuff like Apple computers and Dryer’s Ice Cream gets packed in them here. Custom, high-quality, domestically made, maybe 10-15% of the market…and VERY VERY profitable because they knew their market niche & held to their guns.
Cardboard manufacturers are what economists call leading indicators.
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Advertising guru Jay Chiat once wrote that he thought people make purchasing decisions based on who they think they are, not who they may really be. Human nature rather than conditioning.
If that’s what Chiat wrote, he has it a bit wrong. (though it obviously works for him). My experience in market research and graphic design tells me that people make purchasing decisions base on not who they think they are or who they may really be, but on who they want to be. Aspirational marketing nearly always works. If you can convince people that if they buy the product you are selling, they will be like the rich, successful, hip (or older, in the case of marketing to kids) person they really want to be and you can count the money all the way to the bank.
In the surf industry this is obviously a well played tactic: buy this board, surf like Slater.
btw, this works perfectly in politics too. It’s why poor people still vote republican even though the democratic party’s policies would be better for them economically. They vote republican because they want to be rich and therefore want policies in place that will benefit them when they get rich. Suckers!
I see there is still more fodder. And I felt a twitch in old Paint or Glue or whatever we should call her.
Not giving up. There is still some life in her yet.
How is this for a title for what this thread has morphed into? Macro Economic Market Trends and their influence on custom surfboard design and construction.
"Also on Chinese takeover: I stand by my comments on surfers that shop in retail stores being fickle. Heck half of them think they know more than the shaper about what they should ride and will go with fad over common sense advice most of the time. Don’t be mistaken, Surftech and boardsworks are at this point, fads…lets see in another five or ten years where the wind blows them. "
You want a fad?! Try a Chinese retrofish.
; )
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In Reply To
Advertising guru Jay Chiat once wrote that he thought people make purchasing decisions based on who they think they are, not who they may really be. Human nature rather than conditioning.
If that’s what Chiat wrote, he has it a bit wrong. (though it obviously works for him). My experience in market research and graphic design tells me that people make purchasing decisions base on not who they think they are or who they may really be, but on who they want to be. Aspirational marketing nearly always works
Hey Slim, I think Chiat pretty much meant that or at least as a step along the same lines…maybe he made his statement before it got named?..“Aspirational marketing”…pretty much nails it…thanks for tossing that phrase in.
I saw a dvd that was a pretty good funny allegory for all the trade and political talk in this thread: “Shaun Of The Dead”. Slacker humor and traditional zombie menace in a delightful fusion which we label satire.
As for the supposed death of the pu/pe surfboard, JJR makes an interesting post on the surfer mag forum about how insanely busy that industry really is. you can read it at the following link (it’s on page 2 of the thread):
CMP,
Say it aint so. NO soul in epoxy?
Or did you really mean to say no soul in popout epoxy imports?
I see plenty of soul in Bert’s work and my Loehr boards
have more hand shaped by the master soul than my R. signature boards.
And the reason Skip Fry is backlogged is because everyone wants one for posterity before Skip retires…
So how does one put soul in a surfboard?
Maybe just maybe we have really got to the heart of the custom v import matter. If anyone thinks this deserves it’s own thread feel free. Start r up.
How does one put soul in a board?
Is it that people are passionate about their work and machines are not? Or that people actually sweat into the foam? Or that tweaks and mistakes can make all the difference?
What is it gives a board soul?
m
Soul…Don’t ask me, ask marlboroslim. On the priorities of life, surfboards are very far down the list. I went surfing this morning on the N.S. with a small swell today. Had 30 minutes of 3 guys out surfing. Two custom epoxy and 1 popout epoxy. By 0615 the crowd is now 10 guys. 2 custom epoxy, 7 popout epoxy and 1 older model ben aipa polyester. 0630 now and 27 guys out. Mostly popouts, the alpha hawaiian male, swearing like a sailor, on a 11-12foot popout surftech. Paddled to the next break for some better waves. The “crew” at this popular surfbreak has no issues with popouts. All hardcore Hawaiian surfers too.
Here is a recent post from MarlboroS
Today I went with a friend to meet with a local shaper to order a board (for the friend). No names, but the nor cal guys will probably figure it out. The experience today has reminded me that there is something very attractive about going to a guy’s house, sitting down at a picnic table outside his shaping “shack”, yards away from one of the state’s premier surf spots, and talking about what kind of board you want, where you surf, how much and what you are looking for in a board. Then walking into the shack and having this legendary Velzy trained shaper pull a blank off the wall and mark a template on it and stand it up against the wall and look at it. You stand there and imagine it being carved out of that blank of (in this case Walker) foam, and becomming your dream board. You trust this shaper completely, as he has been shaping over 50 years. He tells you two to three weeks and you know he’s not bullshitting you. Total for a 9’0" with 6+6 top, 6 bottom, uv poly resin with a wood tail block and a single box and fin designed by the shaper is only $635.
This is something very pure about that whole experience. And it’s nice that it doesn’t have to involve talk of a bunch of high-tech stuff and discussion of “building” a board of various layers of fancy materials.
But the post above about age demographics is an interesting one because this sort of experience may indeed be dying out. The shaper above is 67 years old for pete’s sake. Those sort of guys aren’t going to be around forever.
For the younger generations, perhaps a surfboard will indeed be a piece of high tech “sporting goods” and no longer something more like sculpted art.
_______________________________________________________
It’s just a surfboard to me. Who really cares? I take pride in doing a good job, but somehow it’s soulful? The epoxy popout infestation spoke volumes to me this morning. I am glad I have my deal going the way it is. Still swimming upstream, but the stream is of foregin origin now.
I sure had fun this morning though on my 10 lb, 8’6" nose blocked, tail blocked, wood laminated sculpted epoxy art, I mean surfboard. I could even let Marlboroslims friend build his own board , under supervision, for that price he quotes above. No, that just wouldn’t be right. You need to be trained under Velzy to be authorized to install “soul” in sculpted art, I mean surfboards.
Pretty decent man on the beach survey. Live from HI. Board count by the minute. How anal is that? Was that a Aipa Stinger?
slim , i havent read it yet , jjr’s post, no time right now …
like ive said earlier , there are areas where board building is concentrated and have kept market share due more to cultural influences not product differences …
survival is so tight for most that they have no choice but be flat out …
california will be the last place to feel it , the gold coast secondlast , south africa has already felt it , but they still have there own cheap labour force , and hawaii is getting the pressure now …
california is the most insulated surfboard producing place on earth …
stop denying it , and just deal with change…
it doesnt stop you from riding the boards you want , just except the observations and acknowledge changing trends …
would love to elaborate …
but im taking oneula’s advice …
things to do …
regards
BERT
nah just simple observation, the aipa was a jersey exit 47 model, polyester.
Turnpike or Parkway edition?