The Surfer's Journal - Vol 14, No 4

General Discussion
101

hey bee m,

try some hydrmorphone hydrochloride. In fact double down on it, it will help you sleep. The narc of the backyard builder calling me a narc. real scary!!!

Put down the Physician Desk Reference and learn to have a sense of humor.

I will remember to lower the humor a notch or two for you since you don’t quite get it.

If you need me to explain each joke to you please let me know. If you still can’t understand it then it is up to Ambrose to help.

now back to the topic…

oh yeah, polyester sucks and the surfboard industry is subsidized by illegal drugs.

And you only want to narc out the backyarder for the open can of acetone( damn those unfair business pratices) and will turn a blind eye to felony drug activity.

Bee M is the citizen of the year with that logic.(not that he wants to narc anyone out as he states.)

Please swallow the prozac whole and do not chew like a flintstone vitamin. The prozac is timed released Bee M.

102

Somebody has to say it.

We’ve been lied to ever since the shortboard revolution. It wasn’t a huge lie at first, but it just got to be more than something that could easily be hidden and dealt with by the ad designers and marketing companies so they went in-house and the lie became a distortion of the reality field that is today so hideously intense and unscrupulous, that if the “truth” starts to surface it is branded as unnecessary by the evangelistas that keep the money bags riding in on the next stage and boy is it aggressively identified by the guard dog sniffers that search for that hint of “future change” a blowin in the wind.

It’s cool to break your board or delam the deck or get locked in and - snap - grab your balls and pose for the camera. Or let’s make it really ultra-lightweight and destructible so when it inevitably breaks in half you can drag it on in, tethered to your ankle, and come gasping up on shore looking like a newborn trailing your umbilical cord and afterbirth. Great for that sympathy ploy, if you know what I mean. “Did you see me eat it in that tube, I’m lucky to be alive. Let’s go procreate.”

Another for the landfill… and I’m not talking to the older guys like Slim who are life partners to the pretty poly lies that whisper - you and me forever big boy, I’m talking about for the younger more active kids that fully utilize their shortboards for what they we’re created to do. Surf like a wild monkey. Cause it’s too late when you have time like the people projectile vomiting into cyberspace and those that digest the daily dose of endless P vs E arguments that have developed here recently.

So, daddio, is a surfboard rigid or flexible? Terry, it’s flexible of course. NO IT’S NOT. It is an I beam structure and if it flexes it is failing. IT IS FAILING. When our fore daddies discovered the materials from the airplane industry and boat industries back when we was little dudes and dudets, they built them boards strong and tough. Like airplane wings? Exactly. What started out as just a little white foam core lie, at first to keep the sales numbers up, morphed into an entire industry of close-tolerance, foam skin scrapers, that it just doesn’t matter who scrapes it, a machine or what your race, color or creed is, cause you is building on a lie.

We’ve been fed a crock. Why? JOB SECURITY. If you can only buy from one or two sources how creative do you think you can be? Six fins, two wings and a side of coleslaw with your order? Monitor the SM forum to see what to build for the future?

The trouble with building on a lie is everything becomes easily glossed over. Man this is genius - a flexible core and rigid skin belly board, whoops this one creased on me, this one has a fold and it doesn’t work anymore, another and another. Hey, they’re ONLY eighty bucks. IT IS FAILING. Doesn’t anybody else see that the emperor has no clothes on?

I have a garage full of failed product.

That’s why I’m awake now, cause Greg and Bert are offering what we were promised when told, “Yeah, they flex.”

103

I think there’s quite a few board makers who front as ‘designers’.

Now there’s a different direction due to techniques and materials, they are very unsure of themselves. Most need to wait for enough change to guarantee their copy.

But they can’t copy cause they don’t understand the package. Cause for concern.

Swaylocks is a shortcut to the ‘front line’. Progression through logic will win in the end.

Make up your own minds, which sketches fit into the big picture, and which are just scribble.

104

Nobody told Geoff Rache. Better send a memo.

For anyone who doesn’t know, GR is M10. He’s even got some surftech plugs in his name. But he’s also got the newest, shiniest surfshop in Santa Cruz. Couple t-shirts, couple bars of wax…and dozens of his own boards in the racks. Its all about the boards. Handshaped, handglassed, hand-delivered.

Did I mention that the boards are all glassed with RR epoxy?

Maybe I also forgot to mention that Geoff’s basically seen as the sharpest, most current, most dynamic shortboard shaper in Santa Cruz. Maybe it ain’t San Clemente, but they know a little sumpin sumpin about surfing up there.

Quote:

Poly vs epoxy: I agree with Greg completely about one thing; why try and shape a featherlight poly board? Your creating a piece of junk. Epoxy rules this market if lightness is what your after.

Yep. Ever seen a video of Ratboy busting air over weasel reef or waterfalls? How many 4oz pupe’s would he go through doing that sh!t? Your comment above (and I’m not trying to pick on you personally, solo) just so nicely illustrates the point that evolution happens. And I’m not talking about Wayne Lynch-type Evolution that stays in business by selling $$$ boards to MTV.

http://www.m10surfboards.com/

Bernie,

No insult taken. I respect that others have their own opinions and I enjoy the debate. I push hard for my point of view as well, and none of mine is personal either.

On G.R. One of my old shapers is a friend of his and he seems to be a nice fellow.

He also got suckered into a boardworks deal and now his plugs are used by non shapers calling themselves shapers and putting their labels on them.

As for being the Newest surf shop: Speak to me in about 7 years, then we will have the same discussion. Newest surf shop usually means latest sucker, though in the case of a shaper it can sometimes make sense. More than likely since his main item of fame are his pointed nose chip shortboards, the kids will move to the next flavor which is close to the same as the last flavor and Geoff will change with it or go.

As far as being the newest most sought after hot shortboard shaper: What does that really mean anyway. You seen one pointed nose shortboard you have seen them all. Heck there is only about 1/4’’ difference in the latest greatest new fangled models anyway.

I am not saying all small shops will go away forever, someone will always try and make it and some may in fact make it. However, it’s going to be a smaller and smaller perentage and in my opinion the vast majority are out of operation and have not figured it out yet. Times are changing as you say and the emphasis is on big for multi line stores. There is simply not enough profit at the retail level selling over hyped name brand junk made in china for most small store to stay alive.

I would like to see one small label selling only their own clothing and boards make it, but I don’t think it likely.

Also: I am not nor have I ever been againsst Epoxy. I buy personal epoxy boards from Steve Forstall. It has it’s merits and it has it’s drawbacks. What I have said for awhile now, is that I don’t care for popouts. I don’t like their methods of promotion, I don’t like them acting as if they have found something new and improved, I don’t like where they are made and the reasons they are made there, and I think all the shapers in the end are going to get burned.

As far as Rat boy busting airs on popouts: who really cares other than a bunch of kids, who will change their mind on whats cool as the wind blows.

I see no evolution with the thailland made things. I see a schtick, a reus, a hype, a false sermon, and some really pushy advertising by a worn out industry, desperate to create the next fantasy for a gullible surfing public.

Had they not figured out a way for retailers to make more profit, they would have passed along time ago. As they did the first time it was tried. This will change when they end up in Walmart. name brands included.

As for Wayne Lynch selling what you call $$$: Yes they are expensive. No doubt. If you actually get one he shaped, you will have something in about 20 years.

What are you going to say about the popout in your gargage. “wow, look at this baby.” “bought it when I was a kid, it was made in Thailand and has a famous shapers name on it.”

I would take the Lynch any day and not the popout version.

105

Solo et al.,

If I may…I may be mistaken, but I interpreted the remark about Jason “Ratboy” Collins as a compliment that GR glassed Jason’s boards with Resin Research epoxy. I did not interprete that Jason was riding surftechs. Which he may well be. I dont know. Bu tininterpreted it as Jasons boards stand up to the abuse because they are specifically made from RR epoxy. Okay sorry for the intrusion.

Anyway while I’m here If I may, and this supports your points…

Here’s another anectdote. Hey I was taught in college by professors using anectdotes. That is how it was done and that education is worth $150K these days. And I passed the test. So: Draw your parallels find your way.

One of my brothers is a 3d prototyper. He works by hand eye and measurements. He is a sculptor by education and trade. Tyler School of Art. He is a freelance artist. He was doing a lot of work for a huge collectable business called The Franklin Mint. Everyone has heard of them. They advertised (emphasis on ed) heavily in magazines most notably the back page of the USA Today Sunday Magazine. My brother worked over the years on many projects for them. One you may recall was the Miss Piggy Doll another was the Princess Diana Doll. Well that is just background so you all know I know what I’m talking about.

Anywho here’s the story. Franklin Mint is no more. It’s kaputsville. Nada. Zero. Outa town outa mind outabusiness.

Why? Here’s why. Management got cheap and greedy. And most of all stupid. Rather than pay top dollar for US artists to hand sculpt the prototypes they succumbed to the lure of free sculpting in China.

The offer the Chinese make is simple, free art work in exchange for the molding contract.

So they went for it. But they had no control over the quality of the prototype. See my brother would drive to Philadelphia from Central Bucks once a week to have his prototype viewed and critiqued and suggestions made, and he would get new drawings sent up and the detail was astounding from this process. But when the Chinese took all that away the quality went in the crapper. NO more crisp lines or realistic faces. Just boring first draft crap. NO one wanted to buy it as a collectible. Two reasons. One it looked cheap and two it was not made in America.

The words Made in America still mean something to American collectors. So, The Franklin Mint, not concerning themselves with the real reasons that their customers bought their totally unnecessary wares put the greedy bastards out of business.

Interestingly LENOX almost made the same mistake this past Spring. My brother was concerned because Lenox told him they were moving the sculpting offshore to China. Same old… I suggested he wave the Franklin Mint flag in their faces. Dont know if he had to or not. His business style would not generally be termed confrontational. He bites his tongue and jogs.

Anywho last time we talked he had Lenox on his workbench.

He said something about pressure being taken off the sculpting department. I think. Not really sure but he seemed a little happier. But not much. Maybe they got him to cut his price. Dont know. He’s not saying. Would not be surprised if that was what it was all about. Exploitation.

So this discussion argument or whatever is exactly right on time. These are the very same discussions going on in all kinds of businesses sitting at conference tables and computers around the country. Right now! So we should stay on it. Not just drop it because it is a hot topic. Talk about it because it is a live issue.

The longer this thread gets is an indication of the level of understanding that is spreading. It just keeps pilling

up story after story and that is how we know everyones stories. We have them compiled here like a stack of picture evidence. m

106
Quote:

Solo et al.,

If I may…I may be mistaken, but I interpreted the remark about Jason “Ratboy” Collins as a compliment that GR glassed Jason’s boards with Resin Research epoxy. I did not interprete that Jason was riding surftechs. Which he may well be. I dont know. Bu tininterpreted it as Jasons boards stand up to the abuse because they are specifically made from RR epoxy. Okay sorry for the intrusion.

None of my remarks were a slight to Geoff R. Rat Boy, or even the Tech. behind surftechs etc.

As I said, most people I know like Geoff and as pointed nosed chips go, they look about as well as Merricks and the rest. I think those types of boards are good for pros and kids who want pro look alike boards an not much else though. Too little board for the average surfer.

I like some handshaped epoxy and own some as I write. If you must have supers light boards handshaped epoxy or Bert’s epoxy is the way. I personally think way too much is made of light weight though.

107

I see no advantage to a hand lay-up EPS/Epoxy board over a PU/PE board. I have had 3 EPS/Epoxy boards. I also have a Thruster that is EPS/AST so I am interested in a more durable surfboard. This is a pic of the deck my new EPS/Epoxy LB glassed double 6oz on the deck and 6oz on the bottom. It has less than a half dozen sessions on it, and was used in mushy surf that was 4ft or less. In my opinion this board has more pressure dents from my feet than my old Super Green Clark blank glassed with double 6oz, on the deck with the same amount of water time.

Other disadvantages I see with epoxy are the boards yellow quickly when not painted. I also live in central FL and like to take more than one board when I surf, and unfortunately theft is extremely high here on the east coast so I must leave the board in the car. In the winter no problem but in the summer I wouldn’t want to take the chance of causing premature delams. I surf in Greg’s back yard and I have yet to see an epoxy board with a quality finish that even comes close to a Polly board. I know that’s not important to some, but it’s important to me. The only advantage I see with hand laid EPS/Epoxy is if you drop or hit the board it is less likely to ding especially the rails. I keep my boards stored in bags so that’s not so much of an issue for me.

In this area the custom EPS/Epoxy boards used to be cheaper than the custom Polly boards but prices have risen, and are as much if not more expensive than a custom Polly.

Maybe Bert’s boards are better I don’t know I haven’t seen one in person. These hand laid EPS/Epoxy boards I don’t see it. Just another way to build a board not a better way.

Sorry about the size of the pic’s

108

a 3 times 6 oz deck is recomended for an eps blank…

i got one with a balsa core with 2 times 4 oz that is almost imposible to dent.

the advantages in materials can only be achieved in correct work practices…

density of eps is relevant as well…

not all epoxies go yellow in sunlight

besides ive seen some pretty yellow poly boards as well

gloss coats are a bit wuussie harden up bro :wink:

only joking

i got a poly board as well

i just like making boards and going surfing on them

109

If you over glass a board it will be stiff duh .Fry says and I agree boards should flex . No one talks of the difference between ortho and iso poly resin .The nightmare of repairing epoxy (try and fix a hole in a surf tech or a bubble in eps).No they do not buckle just snap.Anyone remember power rods?I like greg don’t know bert bert but like all fanatics they can not see their own folly and address the pitfalls of epoxy .Greg has speny his whole life chasing this and at this point to admit he might be wrong would be to say he wasted his whole working life .My friend out west tell me Rat Boy does not ride surf techs , leave epoxy to the kooks .The industry need to look at the core 1st .We could develop a spray on finish if the core was addressed an improved and forget the glassing compleatly!I am a glasser with over 80,000 boards under my belt and I always thought I would be displaced by technology a long time ago .By the wat surf tech kills any possible forward movement in design .BY the daddio nothing lasts forever by your thinking everthing you ever bought is failed technology (car ,skis wife ) since they did not stay shinny new forever ,sound like a cheapy

110
Quote:

This is a pic of the deck my new EPS/Epoxy LB glassed double 6oz on the deck and 6oz on the bottom. It has less than a half dozen sessions on it, and was used in mushy surf that was 4ft or less. In my opinion this board has more pressure dents from my feet than my old Super Green Clark blank glassed with double 6oz, on the deck with the same amount of water time.

Do you kneepaddle or get to your knees when standing up? :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, the foam under the pressuredents are not crushed and does not turn to dust like the PU foam so you have a better chance in the long run against delams.

regards,

Håvard

111

wow 5 days 5 pages

I read the first and last page

I read the surfers journal slowly

I dint thimk I should read this thread before I read at least the terry Martin segement

wow to the heat

wow indignation

wow to the force fed evolution

meanwhile I glassed on a fin that I made outa pee pee

and glassed it on with more pee pee

after Im done Im gonna put it on my ca ca

then Im gonna rub some prehistoric plant puss on it

then Im gonna urinate on my self and the board

while sitting in the world covering sesspool

with fish defecation and rotting organic mater from all life forms

pleased as punch that I still can

or maybe somebody will pay me

as much money as I have invested

in time and love

yep time and love

while thinking about some dead guy named velzy

who stopped surfing in the sixties

and died in the twenty first century

and built his first board with his dad when he was ten

and surfed manhattan peir,whata crap hole…mmmm baby

an industrious man

father to an industry

stepped aside

to watch in amusement

whilst them all-stars

promoters argued

and fought

and swindled corperations

and stabbed each other bloody and

made and lost fortunes

he went cowboy’in

hot roddin

and died with a pile of orders

and a circle of indebeted souls

stretched a 1/4 mile wide

cryin’ and holdin up drunks and pissin in their shorts

maybe I’ll ride my mat

instead of glossing that board …it sure is pretty.

I wonder if 'ol VELZY woulda liked it

…ambrose…

greg an’ bert…,nice board .

112
Quote:

If you over glass a board it will be stiff duh

duh yourself.do you usually finish sentences with Duh.

people will start to wonder

maybe you should switch to “der”

Quote:

Greg has spent his whole life chasing this and at this point to admit he might be wrong would be to say he wasted his whole working life.

even if greg said get stuffed to the surfboard industry…there is a heaps of others that are, and will be stoked by gregs products and ongoing research into resins and composite construction…

you need to think mate.

whos rat boy i got no tely an i dont read surf mags???(is that your hero)

ill do a google eh…

Quote:

I am a glasser with over 80,000 boards under my belt

you should have worn a mask !!!

113

its ok riomar we understand down here in oz …

one problem we have down here is solvent abuse , our indidgenous populations have a bad problem with sniffing petrol and glues , to get a high from the solvents …

but unfortunatly , prolonged exposure to solvents causes brain damage …

some of these kids get to the point where they dont even know there own name …

one of the worst consequences , is the loss of logic and reasoning , its tragic …

i am interested tho riomar , what are the pitfalls of epoxy ???

and another interesting point , if someone spent a lifetime developing something , i would say that gives them a lifetime head start …

dude , i have to get your address , so i can send you a ride on lawn mower …

hey riomar …

see those …

this guy is pulling air 360s on a longboard, 9’ plus …

i was standing behind slater as he watched a vid of this guy ride a longboard …

air 360s , backhand air reverses , forhand and backhand airs, forhand and backhand 360s …

full vert pocket snaps …

slaters only reaction was WTF and then rewind to watch it again …

guess what , its epoxy …

and guess what else , nows theres 2 other guys in the world pulling air 360s on longboards , and you know whats a coincidence ???

there all doing it on epoxy boards as well …

wanna know something else , slater is riding epoxy …

yea ,leave poly for the kooks , because the hottest surfers in the world have moved on , now that the technology has been refined , thanks to guys like greg …

gr8 ive got another post also addressing the dramas you had , can explain a few things , mainly technique …

its not the resin at fault , its just your using it as if you were trying to use poly …

back later

regards

BERT


114
Quote:

I see no advantage to a hand lay-up EPS/Epoxy board over a PU/PE board. I have had 3 EPS/Epoxy boards. I also have a Thruster that is EPS/AST so I am interested in a more durable surfboard. This is a pic of the deck my new EPS/Epoxy LB glassed double 6oz on the deck and 6oz on the bottom. It has less than a half dozen sessions on it, and was used in mushy surf that was 4ft or less. In my opinion this board has more pressure dents from my feet than my old Super Green Clark blank glassed with double 6oz, on the deck with the same amount of water time.

Gr8day,

Your absolutely right. A double 6 deck on a 2# EPS blank will dent worse that your super green urethane board. BUT your super green urethane board will weigh 4 to 5 pounds more. If all your worried about is strength then get an EPS blank glassed with double 6 bottom and triple 6 deck. It will still be lighter than the urethane and WAYYYYY stronger. And Haavards right too that EPS doesn’t delaminate. On the yellowing, all boards yellow. In our tests epoxy faired a bit better than polyester. But it still does yellow too.

The advantage is strength to weight. If you can build a board lighter with reasonable strength then you can still add weight and make it REALLY strong. That’s the way composites work.

Epoxy boards can also be finished EXACTLY the same using polyester finishing resin. Most people don’t because the whole idea of an epoxy board is performance and glossing is generally seen as just a showroom finish that adds unwanted weight.

115

Roady (aka riomar),

Geez dude, pitfalls of epoxy? Your so sensitized to polyester you have to work in a space suit!

As I stated above it’s about strength to weight. You know, if you you don’t care about weight then there’s nothing wrong with the old standard. The guy above (gr8day) is trying to compare a supergreen that weighs 17 lbs with his epoxy that weighs 12. That’s NOT a comparison. And I for one would never want to ride a 17 lb POS. That’s not for me.

Then there are all the ways epoxy can be used in other composite combinations. That’s what Bert is doing. Sandwich construction makes boards that are incredible light, strong and lively but will be a bit higher price tag. It’s all right to have a ferarri in your garage isn’t it.

You’ve seen as well as anyone that board building has become very broad in the past few years. This is a good thing for everyone. This broadening has, up until now, always been within the realm of shape. But now it’s going to also be reflected in material applications as well. There is nothing wrong with this at all. Surfers and boardbuilders just have to educate themselves a bit so they know what to make and buy. That’s one reason why we’re here at sways.

You guys up there have dabbled in this but still make mistakes. It’s understandable because you have other things to worry about, like summer production. But all the info on “how to” is right on this site in exacting detail. With all the experience you guys have it’s a short jump to making great epoxy boards. Just have to get the foam weights and glassing schedules balanced out, that’s all.

PS. I suggest you read before posting next time.

116

I mean review what you’ve written before posting.

117

man there’s been so many good posts on this thread but i think riomar’s is the best one of all…

it validates the whole point of the argument so perfectly…

way to go there man…keep’m coming

im gonna go back and read it again…it makes me smile

118
Quote:
My friend out west tell me Rat Boy does not ride surf techs , leave epoxy to the kooks

Jeez. Never said he did. Said GR has a Surftech or two with his name on 'em. And that all his handmade boards are now glassed with epoxy.

Sometimes it works to read kind of carefully before you start answering.

119

wow, that took a while----the longest thread that i’ve sat through in a while—interesting view and comment and to think that a surfer journal article started it all!

as a surfer, i want the boards that suits ME best, right now for me thats a epoxy/eps , it’s strong and light and has lasted----thank you both Point Blanks and Clyde Beady/Malcom Campbell for two awesum boards.

anyway that was an interesting read—now i think i’ll go mow the lawn, while i wait for the tide to rise a bit…

120

hey gr8…

the pic below illustrates that not all epoxies are equal …

and some like gregs are way out in front of polyester when it comes to yellowing …

took this photo today of a board in for repair …

i built this board in 2001 , its a fraction over 4 years …

about 2 years back , the customer asked me to grind out the fins and put boxes in …when i refinished the tail area i used epoxy instead of my regular silmar based polyester gloss resin …

so originally the whole board was finished in polyester over epoxy , then where the boxes were installed had an extra coat of epoxy over that again …

the difference was the UV filter in the new epoxy …

the rest of the board continued to yellow at the normal rate , but the area that had the UV stable epoxy has stayed the same in the last 2 years …

you can clearly see where the polyester is , then where the epoxy starts , its not a hard line because of the blend on the gloss …

so what goes yellower , polyester or epoxy???

the answer is neither , its the blank underneath which actually yellows (or in this case wood ) but the quality of the resin will determine how much damaging UV light actually penetrates through the resin to the board underneath …

i saw a board of gregs recently when i was over there , it was 5 years old and was whiter than a new polyester board …

i also saw some of gregs resin at airframes factory sitting 3" deep , set in a container …

it was clearer than water …

greg assures me ,even tho i havent tried it yet that his resins are UV stable , the evidence i saw makes that believable …

plus i know the difference from the variety of different resins ive used down here , that not all epoxies are the same …

just like rio mentioned not all polyesters are the same …

polyester resin sucks , its dark blue , has way to much solvent , cant filler with it without getting reactions and separations , then when it dries it goes a disgusting brown …

see what i mean , i just described general purpose p/e resin …

also the variety of epoxies reflects in all the different data sheets …

there is a way bigger difference in the nature of epoxies than there is in polyesters …

its just to broad to say epoxy doesnt get results …

which epoxy??

what brand ??

you have so much variety to chose from , you can dial in the exact characteristics your chasing , that is if you know what your looking for …

theres my point , all people have to work with is the failed attempts of others or cheap moulded imports , no wonder it gets a bad name …

and like greg alluded to , epoxy is the only road to techniques that will deliver the lightest strongest boards imaginable …

polyester is basically , entry level and retro , thats about the only decent thing you can make with it …

but for the ferrari , high performance aspects , epoxy is way out in front …

so rios comment about epoxy for kooks , well thats kinda funny …

i agree with greg , not only proof read your post , but also do some reading before you post , because youve walked into an audience of which most are quite well informed …

so im probably not the only person who has formed an opinion about your level of expertise in regards to the differences between the resins …

o and before you start talking about ride or performance , why doesnt everyone ride the moulded epoxy imports , and how everyone reckons there not high performance , but kooks boards as youve already stated …

a pig made from epoxy is still a pig …

just like a pig made from polyester is still a pig …

dont blame the resin blame the designer …

id still love to hear all the pitfalls of epoxy to …

maybe we can clear them up one by one …

my whole production consists of epoxy boards , to the point where some of my recent staff have never handled polyester …

a few months back one of the groms , mixed up some polyester resin for a gloss on a repair , afterwards he asked if he could go home coz he felt sick , he said the resin fumes made him feel ill …

not like the old days hey rio , tub of resin in one hand , beer in the other , an afterwork spliff behind the ear , while your toking your afternoon one , just soaking up all those brain killing solvents with a little substance to dilute the effects …

interested to hear your thoughts …

regards

BERT

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