nothing personal. I don’t care if it is poly or epoxy. have used both in different applications , 5 pages guy’s buy the magazine read it and give it to a friend.
This is a pissing contest!
its not a pissing contest …
if you have opinions , then you must have a factual basis for your opinions …
i think this is well mannered and informative discussion …
if someone cant produce some basic facts , then hes losing the pissing contest …
regards
BERT
1,
My son walked in when I was looking at the photo of the guy doing a 360 on a longboard. His exact words “Wow, that guys upside down!”. Pretty much echos my sentiment. By the way, threads like this are extremely import to newbies and people who haven’t made up their minds yet. I was all set so start making a polyester/clark board when the “harbor doesn’t see any benifit to epoxy” thread. I was all set to go down and buy the blank that afternoon. If it wasn’t for the information presented in that thread I would have never gone epoxy.
As a moderator, I have to disagree with the notion that this is a “well-mannered” discussion.
If you click on FORUM RULES above here’s the first thing you see: "The rules of Swaylock’s Discussion Forums are pretty simple. The rules are: 1) No personal attacks. "
What’s in this well-mannered thread?
So and so doesn’t have a clue.
So and so is in denial.
So and so doesn’t know crap.
So and so is on drugs.
So and so forgot to take his drugs.
So and so is ignorant.
So and so is lacking in brainpower.
and much more of the same…
Everybody!! Follow Sway’s Rule #1. NO ad hominem attacks. That means, stick to the concept, don’t attack the man presenting them. (FYI, Fecal matter references don’t convince anyone you are right, either.) You can still make any point you want without being rude to another human being.
'Nuff Said.
This is what you’re up against.
People think that epoxy/EPS is magic. They think that suddenly their board is going to be ultra-lightweight, ding-resistant, indestructable and improve their surfing abilities.
And most shapers are still clueless by using the same shapes with epoxy/EPS. They need to realize that the boards have to be redesigned, and no matter what they do, they may never feel the same as PU/PE.
Personally, I think all shapers should start by glassing a clark blank with epoxy, and maybe use less glass or the same about of glass. That way they can see the benefits of epoxy, allowing them to have a slightly lighter board, or a more durable board.
Only after they’ve done one of those, should they try epoxy/EPS. And then they need to realize that there will be a lot of trial and error before they get the desired results. There’s not too many epoxy/EPS boards to copy from to get a head start. Surftechs are designed wrong for their materials and construction. Despite all the politics, Surftechs have the potential to be great boards. But I digress. Maybe that’s why some shapers are putting epoxy/EPS down, the truth is that they haven’t put in the time to dial in their shapes.
Here’s some of the variables I’ve found using epoxy/EPS. I’m not claiming to be an expert, so I hope others add to the list and comment on what I have:
You can choose durability or lightweight with more glass, or the same amount of glass.
More glass will make your board stiffer unless you modify your design.
Even with a modified design, offering the same amount of flex, the flex will feel slightly different. Not necessarily good or bad, just different.
A lightweight EPS board will feel unstable compared to a PU/PE board. This is due to the density distribution on a Clark blank, with increased density at the rails. The weight around the perimeter makes the board feel more stable. Greg’s perimeter stringer blank has the higher-density foam on the rail. This might make a big difference on how the board feels.
That’s all I can think of right now. I’m not even going to go into the sandwich construction, but that can give you more options to dialing in what you want.
Greg sorry did not have the time to proof my post had a charter at the dock.It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out where is was coming from .Actually not sensitised at all to resin.I have always worn max safety gear since I was a young glasser at the Brewer factory .If you grew up in So Cal you knew about the Pattersons and did not do what they did.Pit falls of epoxy hum lets see.First after several years of using epoxy on our (WRV) long boards (Gregs stuff)I can not even be in the same room or I get violently ill ,goes right through ALL my protective gear .We have some of the best big offshore boats built right here on the Outer Banks ,Davis Mann etc .I can introduce you to about 2 dozen guys that can no longer walk into a boat shop that uses epoxy.Second most boards are over glassed to makeup for infirior core strength.Makes a nice stiff board there goes flex and twist .Surfboards are like snow skis they need to move to the shape of the wave face ,ask Skip.EPS has delam problems and core bubbles in the heat(yes we make these).You still have not said a thing about the power rods to try and keep them from breaking.What about the repair nightmare on all types of epoxy boards? I do not believe we are making the best boards we can .I think the blanks is the solution but heh what do I know OK send the insults .Just being honest as I am about to retire ,but all this effort might be better spent else where(new wing for the shuttle or cancer cure)
PS NEWS FLASH.the next great design change is not going to be from surf tech .
Bert so your saying that the guy in photo was only able to pull those airs on an epoxy You did a scientific double blind study with an epoxy and a poly and the poly could not do the airs ? I know I can get you a poly longboard as light as your epoxy to conduct your study if you need it .Plenty of people have gone down the wrong road research wise in science we do not honor them for their mistakes we only offer kudos for success and laugh the fool .Last time I saw Slater he was on a poly .Get back to me on the double blind study
One last comment.I have a house full of 30 year old wall hangers in great shape( good core ) .I have not seen any epoxys over 5-6 years old .Now you would think some of those epoxy longboards would be around .Greg what happened to Doug Wrights’ biz and how are things at DAVO ?Knocking em dead? Look who buys most epoxys’ guys that are more worried if the board will last 3 years than if it rides well Reminds me of the guy that obsesses over an airbrush but could care less who shapes it .By the way Greg I have known you since mid 70’s and it is ROHDE not roady
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PS NEWS FLASH.the next great design change is not going to be from surf tech .
No, but they will sure copy it.
i thought it was nice to hear a few shapers just plodding along doing what they want to do, not really pushing the limits of modern board design, just making the same old surfboards that have worked for the last ten years and will work for the next 10 years. good on ya’s. screw all this modern tech.
Rohde (sorry … I thought that might be wrong),
First, you know you aren’t the best person to be testing sensitivity when it comes to chemicals. You claim here that polyester doesn’t bother you but I’ve heard your co workers say it does. This is obviously because of the incredible number (80,000 … wow) of boards you’ve done in your life and the toll this has taken on your health. Not surprising you might have sensitivity to epoxies as well. This doesn’t mean our system is overly toxic to others. We have customers who today are sensitized to other epoxies who use ours with no problem. Some of those are right here on sways.
This also doesn’t mean all epoxies are equal in this regard. The epoxies used by the boatbuilders you mentioned are aliphatics and are much more toxic than the cycloaliphatics we use. And by the way, thanks for bringing up the Pattersons, both of whom died of cancer (polyester resin suspected cases). There’s also plenty of other human examples of polyester pit falls. As you stated, all chemicals need to be treated with care and that message is one of the most important things we can pass on.
Second, the glassing schedule is just a part of the overall flex in a board. There is also thickness, foam density, lap thickness, stringer and many other aspects. If a surfboard is built using one technology and the same shape is used in another technology they will ride different. I don’t know if you ever noticed the difference in the shapes I did. Different rockers, rails, and thickness to make the most of the materials being used. I know you guys at WRV have dabbled in epoxy boards but you can’t possibly think you have the experience to make the most of these materials.
I will agree that the surfboard core is the weak link in all of today’s modern surfboards, both polyester and epoxy. The only alternative to this, at this time, is sandwich construction. On this I will defer to Bert.
With all due respect, why on earth should I care what “Skip” has to say about anything. He doesn’t have the experience in as many material applications as I do. You want to know about flex? We produce four resins, all with different flex charateristics for making many different versions of the same board (we are the first resin company in history to do this). What we’ve found is that flex is only half the story. Return is the other half and for this polyester resins are woefully inferior. Over the years we’ve produced boards in multiple flex patterns with resins and fabrics that have different flex charateristics. Has Skip? (Skip, do you mean Donna’s hubby?)
Repair nightmare? Old news dude …
Power rods? It’s my opinion that power rods and rail channels should be used in ALL modern boards that are of insificient thickness, that goes for poopees and epoxys.
EPS delam and bubbling? Here’s exactly what I mean about you guys being inexperienced. EPS almost NEVER delaminates. XPS does. You guys use XPS which almost EVERYONE in the southeast dumped 15 years ago because it bubbled and delaminated. Why on earth would you guys use that stuff?
Doug Wright decided to make boats because the profit margins on wholesaleing boards was so slim. You guys retail most of yours so you have that extra cushion … nice. Davo’s still makin’ boards, nice ones too.
Speaking of factories (polyester) what happened to NA, MTB, Spectrum and Fiberglass Unltd.?
One last thing, so everyone knows, WRV is the mid Atlantic distributor for Clark Foam. What would you expect one of them to say?
thanks keith…will try my best , i think i try and slip a few undercover ones in here and there , but they what they are , so will keep to the subject …
you do a great job…
riomar .
its obvious youve done your time , and the things you mention are things of the past …
the sensitivity issues have been worked with , and most epoxy resins have been changed in formula to make them user friendly …
i to have seen people have allergic reactions , maybe 1 in 20 over the years , but those same people were allergic to dish washing liquid , or strawberries , milk or other things around us in everyday life …
if your allergic to strawberries, you dont eat them , if your allergic to resin , you dont use it …
as far as getting a polyester board as light , well thats really funny …
i build finished boards lighter than a shaped urethane blank , so somehow i dont think you can do it now matter how much resin you squeeze out …
the double blind test , why bother ,people have been riding poly for 40 years , and no one has pulled one , seems strange that construction evolves and surfing evolves with it , some brazilians are building epoxy longboards and one of the brazilians is now doing air 360s , an american made epoxy longboard has a guy in hawaii pulling air 3os and of coarse one of my team riders …
now all the other top longboarders ???
they cant even get close , and if they did manage to get one around , what do you think would happen on the landing ???
i do fully agree with you about a board needing flex , having to move and fit into the wave , twisting and flexing …
thats where eps is way out in front , it has massive shear range before failure , epoxy can bend way further without breaking and can handle repeated cycles of flexing without fatigue , its possible to have the weakest core imaginable and still create flex with a strong shell … see below …
the delam problems and bubbles in the heat , is either solved by a simple vent if you want performance through shear movement , or penatrating the foam with resin to lock it up and make it stronger and remove the air , that can expand …
not sure what you meant by power rods , sounds more like a performance feature …
i have clear statistics , that show the rate of breakage in my epoxy boards to be 1/10th of that in conventional boards …
for a couple of years i kept a survey and asked everyone who walked in my shop ,
how many boards have you owned , how many boards have you broken ???
the extremes were , one guy had 10 boards and had never broken one …
another had 37 and had snapped 36 , just hadnt snapped the one he was currently riding , incidently that was the guy in the photo above , when i found out how many boards he snapped , i figured he was the perfect test case and put him on the team …
but between those extremes after asking hundreds and hundreds of crew , the average was 1 in 4.5 …
so if a guy had owned roughly 5 boards one of those had been snapped …
if one of our boards broke , we knew about it , no one had a clue how to fix em , so all breaks came back , including all our team riders our average snap ratio was 1 in 45 , the guy pictured above is probably responsible for 50% of all our snapped boards in total …
so thats 10 times the difference …
repairing them is no drama when you use it everyday for a job …
to put things in perspective , i find when a polyester board comes in for repair , its a total nightmare and disrupts our whole routine , you go to the polyester resin and its gone hard in the drum , so you have to order some just for a repair , then because its different to work with , you have to know exactly how much hardener depending on the temperature , its either a hot brew or ends up sticky , it reacts with most finish coats leaving sludge , you use 5 times more than you have to , if you brush it to thin it goes sticky , if you have it to thick it cracks, it gives of fumes and burns your skin …
see the point there ,i was exagerating , i do know how to use it but when some of my staff have had to use it , thats some of the stuff they complain about, mainly because it upsets there whole routine , its such a hassle to fix polyester dings …
sound familiar???
i would double check slaters glass job …
your 30 year old wall hangers would be kool to see , im passionate about my surf history …
but again , i will respectfully disagree …
my first successful epoxy boards starting coming out in 91 , what that means is there is 14 year old boards out there , every now and then one turns up for repair and still looks new , even tho the board still gets used regularly just like any board …
and the biggest reason my customers keep coming back to me is performance …
its definatly not quick turn arounds …
its not price…
its not for fancy graphics or colours …
i had one customer tell me even if it lasts one surf he would still get them coz they perform …
so again , your generalisations are off the mark with what i build …
your 30 or 40 years of experience in this business have given you entrenched attitudes towards the materials you work with , plus your still using arguments that were valid 20 years ago but not today …
theres crew out there , that have been quietly working away, addressing those critiques from times past …
its time to let the future out of the bag , because frankly its the sort of things that respected crew like yourself say , that have a bearing on peoples attitudes …
because your opinion does count, based on your years of experience , its enough to sway undecided people who dont get it …
but it also is one sided , youve glassed 80,000 poly’s and how many epoxy boards???
ive made or worked on close to 10,000 polyesters and its getting up there for epoxy now …
so i have a healthy experience with all facets of construction …
and for me the choice is obvious from a surfers perspective , i want the best performing board i can make for myself , i want it to last , and i want to work with materials that are friendly and non toxic without harmful solvents …
but you can guarantee , that if a polyester board was the best performing thing i could make , i would gladly except its other draw backs and defend its use …
anyone would be crazy to not ride something that works the best for them …
my first priority is as a surfer …
if you have a pitfall , the obvious thing to me would be to make a path around it …
thats what guys like greg have been addressing …
how about you??
same thing in the same way everyday , yes plenty of people do go down the wrong road , but they saw alot of stuff on the way , and yes honour for sucess and none for failing …
i think id rather fail at something than not attempt anything at all …
rather go down the wrong road and learn , than go down no road at all …
no disrespect at all rohde , just clarification …
the more we try , the more we learn , the more things become clear …
regards
BERT
Quote:
I was all set so start making a polyester/clark board when the "harbor doesn't see any benifit to epoxy" thread. I was all set to go down and buy the blank that afternoon. If it wasn't for the information presented in that thread I would have never gone epoxy.
This is an interesting comment because I was all set to go down and buy the stuff to make an eps/epoxy longboard and it was that thread that convinced me not to!! Funny how we could read the same thread and come to totally opposite conclusions!
Apparently you were more persuaded by the reports of the do-it-yourselfers and epoxy salesman, while I was more persuaded by the real life test results of a guy (Rich Harbour) who has been shaping in the same room for longer than anyone on earth (1958) and makes some of the best (i’ve never ridden better) longboards and midlengths around.
Yes and no. I walked away from the tread with a feeling that main benifits from polyester is that its really shiny and that epoxy was tough, flexable, and more environmentally friendly. Up until that point I didn’t realize that there was any clear cut benifit to either one (in fact, watching Cleanlines do that blue an white acid wash made me want to be a polyester guy). I will say that I think people like Cleanlines or Kokua are a way better spokespeople for polyester than Rich Harbour is. Bert has said that traditional clark/polyester boards have their place when they are used the way they were intended to be used… on heavy blanks with heavy glass jobs…just the way Harbour does it. However, there is nothing progressive about a Harbour surfboard. They are a great down the line board, but they were never designed to pull off short board manuvers (like the arial 360). I don’t thing that I will every be able to approach the ability necessary to maximize my use of my composite boards, but I like the ability to snap my cutback and hit the lip now and then. Now if you build your own boards the distiction become much clearer (this is regardless of whether you are a pro or a backyarder). Epoxy is such a clear cut winner that its not even funny. Last month when I was down at FoamEZ I saw a petition trying to prevent the lowering of styrine levels even further. The petition said that the reduction would make the boards so weak that they could not compete against foreign boards. With epoxy I can glass a board 10 feet from the dinning room table and my wife has no idea that I’m working with epoxy. And so far its beauty is limited by my ability (though I don’t believe I could ever get an epoxy board to look as beautiful as Thrallkill’s balsa (another better spokeman for polyester))
Quote:
Apparently you were more persuaded by the reports of the do-it-yourselfers and epoxy salesman, while I was more persuaded by the real life test results of a guy (Rich Harbour) who has been shaping in the same room for longer than anyone on earth (1958) and makes some of the best (i’ve never ridden better) longboards and midlengths around
I was actually persuaded by the facts. I have never been hostle to polyester, but suggesting that I’ve been “lured to the dark side” by snake oil salesmen supports what Bert and Greg have been saying all along. If you wonder why they sound so evangelical its because if a simple statement like “I choose epoxy” can illicit comments like this think what they must have had to go through.
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However, there is nothing progressive about a Harbour surfboard.
I think you’ll find that Rich has made lots of contributions to the progression of surfboard design. No, they aren’t designed for aerial surfing…
Quote:
They are a great down the line board, but they were never designed to pull off short board manuvers (like the arial 360).
Is that a strawman argument or do you really demand such things out of your surfboards? If you are interested in doing an aerial 360 on a longboard, then we might as well not have a conversation on board design because our concepts of surfing are radically different and there will be no overlap whatsoever in what we are seeking in a surfboard.
Quote:
I like the ability to snap my cutback and hit the lip now and then.
Done everyday on quality poly longboards by regular surfers. For decades.
Quote:
Epoxy is such a clear cut winner that its not even funny.
Put the words “for me” in that sentence and we won’t have an argument. Because many of us prefer poly. If you want to say epoxy is a clear cut winner for everyone, then you are getting into the territory where what you mean is that anyone who can’t see that must be a terrible surfer or stupid. Then you get the backlash.
Quote:
I was actually persuaded by the facts. I have never been hostle to polyester, but suggesting that I've been "lured to the dark side" by snake oil salesmen supports what Bert and Greg have been saying all along. If you wonder why they sound so evangelical its because if a simple statement like "I choose epoxy" can illicit comments like this think what they must have had to go through.
I’m not saying anyone is a snake oil salesman! I’m just saying that one will naturally represent the product they are developing in a positive light. Clearly they believe in it themselves. And if I was Greg or Bert, I’d agree. What they seem to not want to allow is the possibility that lots of surfers out there, I would say “most” surfers out there, do not need from their surfboards what Greg and Bert, and apparently you, think is necessary. They can’t seem to allow that they are solving a problem that for most people doesn’t exist.
MS,
did you ever build that board you were dreaming about? R H has a nice old big place to shape and use polyester resin, store chemicals and supplies. The number one way to piss off the old neighbors would be to try a polyester at home. Smelling from glassing to sanding.
Now epoxy on the other hand…well, you have read the stories.
sure is nice to get a pro shaped very expensive poly board from r h and you could probably build three of your own with epoxy for the same price. I quess personal preference is just that. Bet you never get stopped on the beach with your r h and someone asking about it, especially when you have to drag the heavy, superiorly shaped log up the beach. Take a wood laminated composite epoxy board and expect to be stopped. On the beach, in the water and especially when you pull off your air 360 on your longboard and midlength composite. Don’t worry, you will have plenty of wind and engery to speak since it is half the weight of your r h.
My new mantra is
Fantastic
Epoxy
Construction
Always
Lasts
Oh wait, that acronymn is FECAL. I guess I need to work out a better mantra.
Hey Fellers,
That sure was one swell issue of The Surfers Journal.
Dane Perlee hanging 10+ on the inside spread. I drove him to soccer practice when he was a kid. And his secret location is one of my favorites!
My three Canadian buddies tearing up our NW waves. All nice fellers!
Buddy Josh Mulcoy (Harbor Bill’s son from Santa Cruz) pictured in the East Canada article…Beautiful!
Buddy Hans the boatboy tearing up Cloudbreak regular and goofy! I surfed with him when he first got his job on Tavarua. He was already better than many pros!
Great interviews with respected shapers!
Larry Mabile built me a classic 10’1" G&S when I was passing through CaliWali on business in '88. Longboards hadn’t made their resergence yet and he was shaping them top notch already. Henry Hester hooked me up cuz I snapped (POLYESTER/poopee) my homebuilt 10’3" with tripple stringers. In the article he explained that he had years of sandwich epoxy sailboard construction experience. That’s gotta be worth some brownie points.
Matt Moore welcomed me into his factory in '85. Nice feller and craftsman.
Eric A. said he’s massively using the shaping machine and preparing for big changes in construction in the near future. That sounds pretty swell to me.
And then my favorite…Stretch. Alot of my buddies have been getting sticks shipped up from him for many years. He’s been building 4 types of construction techniques including epoxy sandwiches for some time now…and he’s partially paralyzed and touts the importance of safer manufacturing methods while enjoying a shaping session with a refreshing stogey. He deserves a crown!
What a great issue of TSJ.
EPOXY!
Love Delbert Pumpernickel
Greg I agree with most of what you say .You have not seen me in 12 years so you have no idea about my health at all.Also you have NEVER been in our factory ever so you have no idea what we do there .As I stated I think the core is the bigger problem so that is not an endorsment of Clark .Bold statements but all hearsay ! Nice how you can just throw anything out there for the readers to sell your stuff .If epoxy was that great you would be the richest guy in the biz .Guess what my health is great and our epoxys are made by Xavier in Cal(Merrick Lost etc ) I am done this has become redundent
Quote:
Hey Fellers,
That sure was one swell issue of The Surfers Journal.
Dane Perlee hanging 10+ on the inside spread. I drove him to soccer practice when he was a kid. And his secret location is one of my favorites!
My three Canadian buddies tearing up our NW waves. All nice fellers!
Buddy Josh Mulcoy (Harbor Bill’s son from Santa Cruz) pictured in the East Canada article…Beautiful!
Buddy Hans the boatboy tearing up Cloudbreak regular and goofy! I surfed with him when he first got his job on Tavarua. He was already better than many pros!
Great interviews with respected shapers!
Larry Mabile built me a classic 10’1" G&S when I was passing through CaliWali on business in '88. Longboards hadn’t made their resergence yet and he was shaping them top notch already. Henry Hester hooked me up cuz I snapped (POLYESTER/poopee) my homebuilt 10’3" with tripple stringers. In the article he explained that he had years of sandwich epoxy sailboard construction experience. That’s gotta be worth some brownie points.
Matt Moore welcomed me into his factory in '85. Nice feller and craftsman.
Eric A. said he’s massively using the shaping machine and preparing for big changes in construction in the near future. That sounds pretty swell to me.
And then my favorite…Stretch. Alot of my buddies have been getting sticks shipped up from him for many years. He’s been building 4 types of construction techniques including epoxy sandwiches for some time now…and he’s partially paralyzed and touts the importance of safer manufacturing methods while enjoying a shaping session with a refreshing stogey. He deserves a crown!
What a great issue of TSJ.
EPOXY!
Love Delbert Pumpernickel
thank you …
that’s what I wanted to know !! Glad at least ONE person noticed the name of the thread , and talked about it a little bit.
ben
i worked and learned from a guy who was of the “if you can’t do all the steps your self you can’t call your self a surfboard maker, shaper is an insult to the craft” he has every step of poly/clark construction wired and if you are lucky enough to get him to build you a board you’ll have one that was done start to finish by one man, strong, heavy and beautiful… pretty rare these days (but now it will be glassed with epoxy since he made the switch at the start of the year)… anyhow he always said if for some reason he had to buy a board that was not his he would buy a Stretch… glad to see Stretch get some good words…