The Surfer's Journal - Vol 14, No 4

General Discussion
141

hey delbert , longtime …

that was a nice break from the tone so far …

hey did you like the shots of my local breaks ???

this one is jakes , its featured in the article a few times , this place can not close out , i have surfed it looking like chowpoo (i know that was spelt wrong), the wave doesnt move , so the bigger it gets , it still hits the same ledge and just gets thicker and hollower …watch the locals , i think they have a rule , and that is , we take any wave we want , regardless if your inside or not …

so i can get intimidating , trying to get a wave without some clown dropping in , theres actually a few good locals , full rippers , but i think its common to all heavy point breaks , they just attract a heavy local element , coz there is no deeper than deep , so everyone jostles for that one square meter that lets you in early enough to get to the bottom …once the wave starts its run , there is nowhere else to get on

then another in the north pictured below , the bluff , this is the one on the cover with bentley in the barrel …

this wave is so fast its bordering on unmakeable , its not uncommon to ride start to finish in the tube …

i prefer it on an onshore it puts the lip back within range …

then there was a heap of nice shots from our southwest …

surfed all those waves except margrets bombie , thats tow in and big ball stuff , ant was out there as usual , i remember surfing margrets mains years back , he would have still been a teenager , it was so big i was as scared as you can get and he was one of the 4 other guys in the water , i think he did well in one of the eddies a few years back , he may have even won a sunset contest as well ??

then the last shot was the south coast , now this place is wild …

thousands of miles of virtually uninhabited untamed wilderness …

im so wishing i had my friends photo collection right now , hes got all the best ones , all i have is what hes offered me from his collection , but this place has so much power , it comes straight up from antarctica with speed , stays deep then will stand up on granite ledges , the beach breaks down here are so thick its stupid , they hit fast , to the point that after a few beatings , you think twice before every lip bash …

this coast has claimed so many lives …

it gets king waves , rogue sets that come out of nowhere and will be twice the size or bigger than the swell at the time …

countless tourists have been washed off headlands and rocky outcrops by unexpected waves …

theres a rule down there , if there is no sand on the rocks , theres a reason , so if your on any bare rock , watch the ocean …

early 80s i remember seeing a picture of a 100 foot face wave on the front page of the albany advertizer , someone had snapped it during a big swell , breaking over the natural bridge , a tourist attraction that people walk on …

all the waves featured are our regulars , so for anyone who comes down this way , there super easy to get to , there the ones we let the tourists surf …

they account for 1 out of ten …

to get to the others means , giving you car (ORV) a serious work out , and maybe a slab for a navigator , so you take the right dirt track …

hey delbert , what ever happened to that bun??

ok back to poly v epoxy …

slim , your the last guy left standing …

regards

BERT



142

Howdy Bert,

Sorry I missed you in the States. I would’ve flown down in a heartbeat if I new you were coming. I caught all the shots here so that was almost like being there.

Hey, I wrote that post late Friday night in between setting fin boxes in the AM, so I forgot to mention that the cover and pictorial on West Oz was beautifully insane. And speaking of the shaper Stretch Riedel, how about that Aubrey Falk “stretch” in the West Oz shots. Now thats a well shaped stretch.

Also the Fred Van Dyke story looks interesting. I met his brother Gene in 1983 on my first trip to the North Shore. He was real nice to a pale faced Northerner.

Gotta go, family calling!

Resin Research epoxy is the Shiznack! Polyester is EVIL!!!

Love Delbert de Von Pumpernickel

143

Oh Yeah!

Bert and Greg’s prophecies will come true. There will always be grumpy people who are frightened of change. But that’s what makes the world so much easier for us. If there were more forward thinkers, we might be mowing lawns for a living. By the way, why do they design driving lawnmowers with the exhaust pipe aimed at the driver instead of out the back like a car? I wear my respirator when I mow my lawn. And then there’s the other type of “mowing the lawn!”

Love Delbert P.

How’s this, I’m the largest consumer of epoxy in the world in sporting goods now! I have bought from probably every “main” supplier, and Greg is doing some very newschool things that the epoxy establishment could’nt. I think I’m up to 3,200,000 pounds a year now. Now that’s nutty! And we don’t use any polyester thermosets. Could there be a reason? I have a real swell job now because I started playing with epoxy in 1977 when I was 13.

144

love it …

i got a swell job now as well , all because i started playing with epoxy and figured my way around a few pitfalls that sent most others back to poly …

and gregs resin is on the list to put straight into production …

i might need you to come down and have a look at what were doing delbert , then you can pick up your new magic carpet while your at it …

only bummer is , i can only show you the soft side of the country wave wise , but its still great …

looks like riomar gets his wish about greg …

Quote:

If epoxy was that great you would be the richest guy in the biz .

so whats the deal boy/girl??

not cooked yet ??

you can always email if you dont want the world to know …

regards

BERT

145

Rohde,

Havier uses XPS which was my point about the bubbling and delaminations. Havier has told me over and over that these problems have been worked out with his venting system. Now I get the impression from you that the problem isn’t worked out. So my question is again, why would you get boards made out of that stuff? Why not use 2# EPS which has a much better history of success? And why on earth would you go all the way to the west coast to get a product that is generally built at least as well or better in FL or TX?

I have been in your shop. Talked with you there for an hour … at least. You don’t remember? Four and a half years ago in the spring.

As for throwing just anything out there, I try to base what I write on facts NOT hearsay. Facts that have to do with things like strength to weight, elongation percentage and flex charateristics. Basic engineering principals that we can base better surfboards on in the future. I’ve been building these things for twenty five years. I won’t attempt to tell you that I haven’t had my failures, I certainly have. But the day to day product that we have been building for the last 15 years, IMO, is far better in strength and performance than the standard poopee. And I’m certainly not alone in that opinion. I’m bettin’ you’ve never even ridden one.

146

and in the blue corner we have …

the polyester brain fried , i love my solvents , POOPEEES …

and in the red corner we have the triple tag WWF champions of the year ,lets have a big cheer for the FECALS …

now ladies and gentlemen , this has been a long and drawn out battle over the years , and yes the poopees have had a history of wins due to dirty tactics and foul play , so the fecals have had to just except some rough play …

but now back from an intensive training program, refining every fibre and looking as lean as ever , sporting the ultimate strength to weight , and with the backing of some new tag team heavyweights , we are looking at the new world champs ladies and gentlemen …

the poopee corner is looking subdued …

but whats this , the blue corner has gone into a huddle , NO, NO , unbelievable …

the blue corner has resigned by default , they just couldnt take anymore …

rather than face the inevitable slaughter , they have left the ring …

woo hoo …

the fans have gone wild , there not happy , there demanding a full refund from the poopee corner , they feel slighted, oh! and how typical is that , the blue corner are giving the same dirty play tactic , "sorry theres no guarantees " , well fans havent we heard that one before …??

youve seen all the action right here , right now , on the hottest action channel right to your screen live everyday , signing off from sway channel …

regards

BERT

1 2 3 your out

148
Quote:

and in the blue corner we have …

the polyester brain fried , i love my solvents , POOPEEES …

and in the red corner we have the triple tag WWF champions of the year ,lets have a big cheer for the FECALS …

now ladies and gentlemen , this has been a long and drawn out battle over the years , and yes the poopees have had a history of wins due to dirty tactics and foul play , so the fecals have had to just except some rough play …

but now back from an intensive training program, refining every fibre and looking as lean as ever , sporting the ultimate strength to weight , and with the backing of some new tag team heavyweights , we are looking at the new world champs ladies and gentlemen …

the poopee corner is looking subdued …

but whats this , the blue corner has gone into a huddle , NO, NO , unbelievable …

the blue corner has resigned by default , they just couldnt take anymore …

rather than face the inevitable slaughter , they have left the ring …

woo hoo …

the fans have gone wild , there not happy , there demanding a full refund from the poopee corner , they feel slighted, oh! and how typical is that , the blue corner are giving the same dirty play tactic , "sorry theres no guarantees " , well fans havent we heard that one before …??

youve seen all the action right here , right now , on the hottest action channel right to your screen live everyday , signing off from sway channel …

regards

BERT

1 2 3 your out The poopees have left the ring because they’re bored with this whole discussion. The truly pathetic reality is that Bert will keep on spewing long after everyone else has moved on. The question is: If Bert is left standing in the empty forest, will anyone hear or even know, or care, when and if he decides to stop yapping? But we already know the answer; he’ll keep on going as long as he has his audience of one, himself.

149

i think theres a difference between productive , informative speech and mindless ramblings …

but i guess when you hear stuff you dont want to ,it will sound like yapping …

i believe a lot of the yapping hasnt sunk in , because even after being presented with logical reasonings , anecdotal stories , hard scientific data , and documented details from some of the worlds biggest composites companies …

i still hear the same arguments …

even tho when i compare recent threads to archived ones , on the same subject matter , it seems one guy was getting a little ganged on …

now he gets a little support , and the blue corner doesnt wanna play anymore …

regardless , of what a few hardline opposers to developing technology feel , there are plenty of crew who appreciate picking up on whats happening on the development front and where those still left in business are going with design , construction , materials , etc …

so maybe with the blue corner having a rest , we can get back to productive design theory, discussion and development …

whenever you think its relevant you can pipe up and say were still here , were still doing the same thing , just to remind us how far weve come …

if your not interested in pushing the boundries , thats fine …

but judging from the viewing numbers on certain topics , i would say plenty of people are …

i think the shoe is on the other foot , now its time for the blue corner to go do some R&D and come back with a new plan before stepping in the ring …

bill is already onto it , as are many …

the new U V polyesters , less solvents , less shrinkage , better strength to weight , way cleaner results , way less potential for things going wrong in production in regards to extreme weather conditions and yellowing …

im not saying the poopee is dead , its still a valid form , it will just play a way smaller role in the development of surfing at the high performance end …

and like riomar says , the core needs to be refined …

and it already has , there are comparitive core materials already available in the same weights , that have way better properties and would deliver an insanely strong board and can still be done in polyester , but that would take someone to put some effort into development and find a way of applying the technology that is already there …

either way , it emphasises gregs earlier points , if were not continually pushing the boundries and improving the system , we face being over run by asian copycats who can do the same thing for half the price …

weve got someone on our tails now , so its time to run a little faster and stay one step ahead …

if there is no clear distinction in product quality , then the consumer will buy on price , and theyve got us every time …

now lobster i will translate that post into language the blue corner can understand …

blah blah , yap yap , blah , yap , blah blah …

regards

BERT

o another point , holly has fought of the asian invasion , he is the last one left in his industry that hasnt moved production to asia , what was his secret ???

technology , being 2 steps ahead …

wonder if we can learn anything there …

150
Quote:

if there is no clear distinction in product quality , then the consumer will buy on price , and theyve got us every time …

Bert, I agree with most of what you are saying here - but I think the above point is a bit simplistic. Surfers buy boards for a number of reasons - price is one of them but its not the only one. Kids with a fraction of Kelly Slater’s ability buy Merrick’s and pay more for them becuase Kelly rides them. 80% of the time the no name shaper around the corner could shape them a board that would work better than the Pro-model replica. Pro-endorsement sells boards. Also kids buy boards based on image, I’m thinking Lost or Insight. If you took a two identical shapes and stuck a Min Fang sticker on one and an Insight sticker on the other, guess which one sell for A$700 and which would sell for A$480.

Pretty much all sports equipment sells on: image, pro-endorsement, technology and price or a combination of these (if you’ve got the first three, the last one isn’t so important). That said, no one should be sitting on their hands thinking “I’ve got WCT team riders and a hip looking logo so I’m ok” - the guys getting boards made in China are getting a better margin and will have more $ to spend on pro’s, art directors and magazine ads. So like you say you’ve gotta stay two steps ahead with technology but you got to throw endorsement and image in there as as well.

151

yep pinhead fully agree there .

but that segment of the market is just one …

slim made some interesting points further up about the pro scene having less of an influence on the majority of surfers these days …and i agree with that as well …

but i do agree with what you said …

maybe it should have been if a consumer is looking for cheap , then we cant compete with them (imports)…

the last one is important if you want to stick around …

plenty of businesses have had the first 3 , image , technology and price , but if its crappy product , it doesnt take long for the word to get out …

whats a fine and acceptable quality today , may not be tommorow , in the light of comparable boards on the shelf …

the whole point i was making is , we are being assaulted by asian surfboards , and this is just the begining …

because some asian production houses have been very successful , theyve attracted the attention of other asian factories who want to get on the bandwagon …

im just about ready to get my own lawnmower …

the asian manufacturers are doing the hard sell on retailers , making it super attractive to them , offering really healthy margins …

unless we have something really special , a large percentage of the market will shift to off the rack boards , which is no big change , the bulk of the market has always picked off the rack , but now the rack boards will be (are)asian …

that only leaves the seasoned surfers to do business with the existing custom industry …

merrick has done well with image , as you state …

he has his name on everything , xtr , urethane with epoxy , standard pu/pe , moulded sandwich …

he has his label on more boards than any other single label in the world …

hes basically the worlds largest surfboard label , with boards coming from china , thailand , and made locally …

so he is doing what he has to to get margins , so hes got the bucks to keep the image alive …

i think thats why ive been stressing the point so much to date …

the cobra factory are heading for 200,000 boards this year, combine that with kinetic and a few major factories in china and your talking 400,000 boards …

theres 400,000 boards this year , that have impacted local board building facilities …

but those boards still hit the consumer via retailers and the few who have branded imports with there logos …

add to that some new tech rolling into the market , plus the other asian factories who want to get on the surf industry bandwagon and youve got some serious pressure to contend with …

10 years back these threats just wernt there …

thats the biggest reason crew who make the standard board cant get complacent …

but if you do something special , like fine crafted retro boards , or whatever it is to stand out , youve still got something …

but if its standard pu/pe with nothing appealing or extra , better start shopping for that lawnmower …

in times past the power house surfboard production enviroments were australia , south africa , america and hawaii , ive worked hard enough in the past filling containers to go to japan …

and that was happening all over the country …

you would be hard pressed to find 2 or 3 labels with enough business to send a container out of the country these days , i know one guy who tried to compete on a container a few years back and to get the business they worked him down to 270 AUD a board , he was making 15 dollars a board ,then after a few unexpected machinery breakdowns , and a few unpaid suppliers , he learnt you just cant compete in that market anymore …

to be hard nosed and say, im not looking at any alternatives and just sticking with what i know and pu/pe is best and thats that and im not putting in any effort to make my boards special …

that attitude is a license to mow lawns in todays surfboard industry …

in the end , the backyarder is fine , and the consumer will do well to …

im wondering if in years to come , pressure on backyarders will start coming from retailers and not the manufacturing industry??

traditionally backyarders were the biggest complaint of legit businesses …

but with no legit businesses left , the backyarders have got open space …

except for the fact that even the cheap imports have stolen the traditional entry level market that up and coming shapers used to fill …

so by and large , imports have basically killed it unless youve got a niche …

regards

BERT

152

the poetic justice of the whole import thing is that pretty soon backyarders and any industrious person can (and already have) start a fully legit internet business selling chinese boards … undercutting the retailers that started the whole thing

their greed will get them in the end

it will be a credit card order straight from the wharehouse at 40% cheaper than “city wavecloths shop”

then all the retailers will be complaining about a down turn in the industry etc etc

and finally relise there is no industry left…

meanwhile a few bakyard guys will still be making boards and going surfing after they finish mowing

a retired retailers lawn …who now is there landlord

and is currently making there pocket money in property

and doing property deals with asian investors…

etc etc etc

153
Quote:

i think thats why ive been stressing the point so much to date …

the cobra factory are heading for 200,000 boards this year, combine that with kinetic and a few major factories in china and your talking 400,000 boards …

theres 400,000 boards this year , that have impacted local board building facilities …

but those boards still hit the consumer via retailers and the few who have branded imports with there logos …

add to that some new tech rolling into the market , plus the other asian factories who want to get on the surf industry bandwagon and youve got some serious pressure to contend with …

10 years back these threats just wernt there …

 </blockquote></div>

Are those numbers real? How long can they make that many boards and not put a glut in the market? Yeah, a shop can get 'em cheap, but if there’s no buyers, what good is that? Will there really be 800,000 surfboards, or more, sold over the next two years to consumers? Or will the shops be stuck with them, hoping someone will buy them off the clearance rack? 200,000 is a lot of surfboards, let alone 400,000. Is there that many beginning surfers out there? I mean, how many of these imports do you see in the water being ridden by competent surfers? I could be wrong, but I think the reason many of the older brands were/are successful is that their ability to manufacture a certain number of boards doesn’t go way beyond the number of end consumers out there. It will be interesting when the latest surf craze fades to see what happens to these overseas factories.

154

surfthis,

I see a lot of competent surfers riding them, as well as, PUPE boards. I don’t think I can make the generalization that the Asian pop outs are primarily for the entry level surfer. Mike

155

to be honest .

i think the tag entry level surfer attached to moulded imports is an alergic reaction …

my personal experience is that im seeing a lot of seasoned older good surfers riding them , plus guys in there 20s , the whole range …

had a customer ring up from the sydney northern beaches the other day , he said hes really noticed lately how many people are riding these new sandwich boards , he then says , "you must be devastated that so many people are making them now "…

i explained that even tho hes seeing different labels on them they all come from the same place …

i asked him if he had heard any negatives …

he said , " they cant get the style or size they really wanted , but can live with that coz its a strong board "…

then he says thats why im ringing you now …

i believe the tag entry level surfer gets thrown around , because guys who shape regular boards just dont want to admit , that crew would rather choose a moulded epoxy built well , over a custom poopee …

its a real blow for the ego ,so they console them selves with calling them entry level boards …

its a recent tactic , to make people feel inferior and get them back to poopee …

foul play from the blue corner …

as far as what effect will 400,000 boards have …

you will get masses of surfers hitting the water , retailers will have to start discounting to move volumes of stock , because there is a competitive market , because even the corner deli and milk bar will have boards …

you will still have a strong demand for custom boards , but peoples expectations will be higher about strength to weight …

so anyone who can offer a good custom ,built to a high quality should have a larger surfer base to work with …

imported boards are not all bad , the customer base broadens , leaving the guys who build custom boards with there posistions more solidified at the top of the triangle …

but the emphasis will be on boards that are better in make up than the imports …

and right now were seeing the shift from custom urethane to moulded epoxy…

so that trend wont change , unless the custom guys can better the product …

just highlights what ive been saying for a long time …

be prepared to see custom sandwich on the rise …

but i also believe we will see a major reshuffle of the players until a new status quo starts to emerge after that i have no idea …

either way , exciting times for some , daunting for others …

regards

BERT

156

These last three posts make the point I tried to make earlier. We have been, for the last half decade, in a peroid of unprecidented growth. The numbers inflate while the long time industry stays busy in the power centers, all the time unaware of the fact that they have lost market share and now have a very strong competitor. When the expansion ends, that’s when the pinch will be felt. That’s when the glut is seen and that’s when prices drop. Guess who’s in position to take advantage of lower prices? As Surfthis stated, even competent surfers are riding imports because the technology is the same and even experienced guys don’t see a difference. If all cars were the same tech, wouldn’t you buy the cheapest one? Of course, you’d be a fool not to.

The only response can be to raise technology and awarness to the advantages of something better.

157
Quote:

surfthis,

I see a lot of competent surfers riding them, as well as, PUPE boards. I don’t think I can make the generalization that the Asian pop outs are primarily for the entry level surfer. Mike

True, that is a generalization. Just haven’t seen too many “7’s” and such being ripped on. I have seen lots of good surfing being done on the molded imports, mainly Surftechs. I was referring more to the pu/pe imports. I feel that the “entry level surfer” are the main market for these imports and choose them first, mainly because they’re less expensive and “look” just like the other boards.

158
Quote:

…

i believe the tag entry level surfer gets thrown around , because guys who shape regular boards just dont want to admit , that crew would rather choose a moulded epoxy built well , over a custom poopee …

its a real blow for the ego ,so they console them selves with calling them entry level boards …

its a recent tactic , to make people feel inferior and get them back to poopee …

foul play from the blue corner …

regards

BERT

Just like the tactic of calling anything with a blunt nose a funboard, which is trying to say, not a board for serious surfers. Pointed nosed shapers and shops started that one prior to popouts from Thailand.

The popouts don’t ride the same. Some like it some don’t. Most anything can be gotten used to.

Fortunately for shapers of poly, surfing the industry is fed off fads mostly. There is still hope the fad will die and popouts and chinese made stuff will go away.

Recent example. Fin boxes. You could not give one away from the mid eighties to early ninties. Now they are the standard. I see some pros back on glass ons, so maybe that will come back.

Baaaaaaah…Baaaaaah

159

Greg’s post made me think of a fine point of the marktet that no one has specificaly addressed. It could be important. I’ve seeen plenty of propaganda, but not alot of looking at the actual age demographics.

Seems most people, who take the time to log in here and then post to this thread AND do so in support of Polyester longboards say pretty much the same thing. And that highlights a pretty interesting point. That they are with a shaper and have been for a number of years and intend to be with them in the future. Abd rightly so. And both the old guard surfers and shapers should be allowed to live out their lives this way.

Time to face facts though. This is the story of the past. But to try and build a market on this segment is foolish. It is not going to change except to get older than it is until retirement or death changes it. So this is the shrinking segment of the market. It would be foolish to go after this market because they are all spoken for and haven’t got much time left anyway. Over 45 and getting older is a shrinking market.

Now that is all fine and well, and I think they should stick with their shapers. They should be grandfathered in and allowed to use polyester until they retire. Same for their customers. AND WE SHOULD NOT GET UP THER ASS ABOUT IT. Why the heck not. This market is not going to bother anyone.

But that is not going to have much impact on the future of the industry, other than that when they get too old or their shaper retires. Then what? Whoever is in charge of licensing the glass shops can just not license any new glassing shops wheich is pretty much what is happening. I’ve heard this is happening in CFL. And so be it. They guys ar egrandfathered in adn can make a living till they retire. But no new glass shops.

I believe we are in a grace period right now. Concerning paints in NJ we are in a grace period and that is for one year or until 2004 inventory is gone.

But conversely the old guard should not be making policy or getting up the ass of the new technology or the guys pushing it for the future either. Why bother?

See the current market of older customers is being supplied to a market that they, the shapers, already have. Whatever loyalty is going to be from these people is in place.

BUT WHAT ABOUT NEW LOYALTIES?

Here is where Greg’s thoughts kick in, the new guys are the expanding market. That expansinon can only be fueled by new customers and the old shapers, if they are not seeing their business growing, are not getting them. Can’t say it any clearer.

All the expansion is and will continue to go to the imports or th enew technology and when the old guys on the longboards and poly boards retire or quit, the market will belong to the imports.

There it is.

This is my analysis.

Took me five years to get an old friend and poly longboarder to try a new Loehr epoxy even though I have been up his ass to try one for years. He loves it. But point is it was not even my prodding, but his son’s who tried one of my Loehr’s and was hooked. Now the kid is on a Surftech. Identity issues. Surftech is in th emags. So necessary for a kid

to not be alone.

That is how hard it is to get old guys to change. I can not do it. That is my point.

160

Getting back to technological innovation as a strategy to compete with China - Read about a WA company called Qucikstep pty ltd today - they are listing on the back of a technology that is a cheaper alernative to an autoclave. Uses silicon moulds floating in a high temparature fluid to create carbon fibre panels. Fluid creates even pressure on the mould so it doesn’t distort and contollable heat for cure, pretty nifty, check it out:

http://www.quickstep.com.au/patents/qstpOrginal.htm

Looks like another corridor behind this door