Underground revival Update

Hey Mattwho,    Difficult to tell from the photos, but your rails on that board look like they have quite a bit of tucked edge all the way up to the nose, so they are more aggresive than I was expecting.   Board looks nice, concaves look great as well.

Stoked here as just got hold of some UV lights that I plan to put in my laminating room, they are 300W mercury vapour type so I am hoping that I can use reflective survival sheeting to line the room and providing the UV is strong enough it should cure the board and rails.

 

 

 

 

 

Rails!

Indulge me here.

There are so many, many ideas on rails.

I know more than I care to tell.

It is a kin to God,

You believe, yes

You believe, no

The question of Hard or soft?

Same thing,    On- Off, black, white.

Even in my LB days (63-68)

High energy surf = “knife rails”

Low energy = 50/50, ah, with and edge.

And, I did survive “the Revolution” now known as the politically correct “Transition”

By that I mean I did even better on short boards, some guys, eh, not so well…

I guess what I am trying to say is

It is the shaper, that was (or is) a surfer of some skill, they will seek the best answer.

I’ll stop here…

Digging your UV light deal!

I was using a UV light on a trapeze wire a year or 2 ago.

It worked out OK but I didn’t really have enough light.

I have heard of guys going with the “Tanning” bed lights.

Even the lamps here have to be changed on schedule, so lamps should be abundant.

Interested in the reflective material placement,

I’ve done enough UV cut laps to know.

 I am still  lacking confidence in the “flip”!

Sidenote…

Yeah, I’m blessed with my Boy…

My shortest board 5-8 Mini Sim Killer.

Sunday at our local break…

Cool Photo, and smooth style.

The idea with the emergency foil blankets is to pretty much cover all the walls  with it, and hope that enough UV reflects around the room to do the job.

Yes rails!    It took me a while to get going on this subject.   At the moment  I’m hooked on the subject. So many conflicting opinions while doing my research.

Again a lot of it depends whats going on with the rocker and contours.

My experience is that harder rails the more grip you get in the wave… upto a point, but they can just let go if you are pushing really hard, and there is not much time for recovery, so they are faster as they are cutting into and displacing water, kind of acting as a fin. Depends on the amount of tuck… Which obviously is the difficult part to get right!

I’m just starting to appreciate that rails can really influence the ‘pivot point’ of a board, by that I mean where the point at which the board turns around.   I am assuming that we want the main pivot point around the front fins,  If the hard edge from the tail goes too far up, which is possibly something that I have been sleepwalking into this can move the pivot point up too far, and here we can get un-controlable slide from too far up the board as opposed to ‘good’ or ‘controllable’ slide or release from further back. 

The thing is hard edges can really throw a hell of a lot of spray, as they are cutting into and displacing water, and like that it sheers off the bottom of the board, plus you have something that will push back at you (as long as you don’t go over the boards limit) while turning???

This area around the front fins is the area that I am most interested in, how far to take that super hard edge to keep control, I think that the general concensus is that it should be around 4 inches in front of the front fins, assuming that the amount of tuck is increasing as well.  

As I remember this board had the super hard edge probably between 6-8 inches up from the front fins, so I think a few inches too many.

I thought that I would put a couple more pics up and be hyper critical to try and explain what i am saying,

Pic 1,  buckets of spray and power, the board pushing back, and water being released and shot out from under the board

Pic 2,  The board planing, probably too much, still releasing a lot of water that possibly could give a skimboard effect and less rail control in bigger surf?

Pic 3,  Super Hard edge on rail in-front of the front fins releasing the tail end of the board too early before the turn is 100% complete? And not enough controlled smooth pivot around the front fin area?

 

Interested to hear your views, and if you agree with most of this or if I’m talking out of my rear end

 

 



That’s alot of feed back on rails…

And a huge subject…

For me it comes down the rules I follow.

  1. The more the waves energy the harder the rails.

  2. Riders ability modifies rail hardness/forgivness.

Here’s a story for you…

Late 71 came up with a Brewer downrailer, the newest concept.

We Fooled around with it for about 6 boards, finally had something.

And off to the Northshore, what an era!

I liked to hang high and turn hard.

Leap and bounds ahead of the old S deck.

“tread the needle and fin drift” stuff.

Later Lopez started the tucked edge.

And yeah surfed those on the NS into the mid 90’s.

I don’t like the feeling of the rail releasing or drifting (wooble)

under pressure.

But in lower enregy surf I start at the front or mid fin with the hard stuff.

Hope this helps.

Very complex and personal subject, ah, rails…

 

Interesting.  Plenty to think about,  I think I will have to get my hands dirty and experiment with that hard edge. 

Must have been an amazing time back then with such big jumps in surfboard advancement, and to have been in Hawaii in those early years in the thick of it.

You have probably noticed I like to ‘change’ my boards to see what differences these little changes make to performance, the good thing is that the rest of the board remains a constant so any change in performance is directly linked to what has been modified, hence providing there is enough resin, the hard edge can be blunted a fair bit from in front of the front fins, test again and note the differences. Unfortunately I have no good right handers where I am based (would be forehand for me) so for regular testing in forehand waves I need a test pilot.

I remember ages ago  reading somewhere (possibly sways?) how Matt Biolos made sure that his sanders were sanding the boards how he wanted them sanded to make sure that the rails were going to give the highest level of performance, I can only assume that was to make sure that there was a certain level of edge all the way through the board even if it was extremely tucked and not noticable much to the eye/hand.

 

 

You have probably noticed I like to ‘change’ my boards to see what differences these little changes make to performance, the good thing is that the rest of the board remains a constant so any change in performance is directly linked to what has been modified, hence providing there is enough resin, the hard edge can be blunted a fair bit from in front of the front fins, test again and note the differences. Unfortunately I have no good right handers where I am based (would be forehand for me) so for regular testing in forehand waves I need a test pilot.

Good luck  with the test rider…

Funny I’m  regular foot but I feel ,I surf(ed) better backhand, no big deal…

I have found small changes in the shape have to be done in logical steps and tested.

And from my own expeiances, be critical and lose the stoke factor, cuz sometimes we have to move back a step before really improving that aspect of the whole.

I remember ages ago  reading somewhere (possibly sways?) how Matt Biolos made sure that his sanders were sanding the boards how he wanted them sanded to make sure that the rails were going to give the highest level of performance, I can only assume that was to make sure that there was a certain level of edge all the way through the board even if it was extremely tucked and not noticable much to the eye/hand.

 Being that we both sand our own, we kind of know (in glassing) where to put the lap, here’s a plus!

 We know what is in there.  So, I feel the advantage is ours.( Not saying there are not a lot of talented sanders out there!  As in my case, good sanders = good shapers.)

I have changed my mind at hot coat and dammed up the section at the tail , to tweak it to what I want. And in the case of the serious rails you bet resin edge.

The edge?

Depends on what the board is meant to be good for.

Right now I have 5 boards from mush to serious.

All lave their own rail “hardness” as they progress.

BTW loved the “spray” shots and study on wave face.

Here are some of the newest board groveler.

Sometimes I feel there are only 2 of us…

Lukers

Man up

Jump in!



Thanks for the comments,

Analysing your shots the ‘jets’ of water coming off the bottom of your board in your shots is definately a lot softer than in my shots,  although of course there are many variables like board dimensions, rider, rocker, surf conditions etc etc, but I still think a fair bit of the difference will be in rails,   Just from viewing the shots with my imagination of riding the boards in question I’d say that your board would be a lot more forgiving and more user-friendly.   I keep trying to get the board back to make some adjustments, but so far no luck in that happening.

Just a quick comment on the rocker changing during lamination, my last build was a millenium foam with 4mm stinger (I think), and I had hardly any rocker change at all during lamination, I’d say pretty much 0.

 

All the best 

LTM

Been awhile…

All is well…

Been wanting to answer back on visual assessment…

I do a lot of watching

My boards in action and tons of video rides by others in the know…

I normally looking for any bogg, odd actions or other such in a a ride…

I tend to only watch the board.

And I think that gives me much more feedback, ah between my ears…

MORE!

This one IMHO board has lot of concave and is too fast!

Fun…

A local piece bit done a while ago.

RIP Andy

..

Hi Mattwho,

Yes I think that would be a fair evaluation from the photos- yes, deepish concave and straight single- Personally Iwould have preferred it to have had a double running fron infront of the fins, With the rails probably I tried too much, perhaps sometimes I need to relax a little more while shaping.  there is more to surfing than basic speed, positioning and flow can make its own speed in a round about way. 

Onwards and upwards.

Andy Irons.  I don’t think that there is anything I can say that hasn’t been said already, but I know that I didn’t appreciate his surfing enough when he was still here.

Here is some footage that I have not seen before, really incredible stuff, in those conditions his boards look like they are equal to anything around now, or maybe its just his freakish talent.

 

I cant figure out how to embed a video, but here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PopwoKz8M

 

Nothing happening here, I am waiting for materials to be delivered to me that won’t arrive for another week!  I’m rattling around bored but at least getting some waves although conditions not the best. As i have time on my hands you can probably expect another rambling post.

As far as i can tell from the whole thread the general direction for both of us is increased rocker, i have done the staged rocker, and now I find myself back-tracking to more continous- so with that aspect i am coming more in line with you.  Also I found that relatively conservative staged rockers didn’t give me the advantage in catching waves that i was hoping for especially in more hollow stuff, the curve of the board was not matching the curve of the wave! So this is what enables the pros in places like tahiti catch those waves on boards with high rocker

One thing that I am seeing a lot of now while watching looking at the pro surfers boards is that when boards are held bottom side-up, or if you press ‘pause’ during one of the amazing aerials the rockers that i am seeing seem to be more and more continous curve and very difficult in a lot of boards to pick out any type of flatter planing area, (like stretch’s continous rockers) I feel like I am slowly (very slowly) going down that path although at this stage I don’t know if I will go as far for even entry and exit fockers. As a side note to me the rocker numbers that are often stated on the ‘‘what they rode’’ articles often don’t match what i am visually seeing- Perhaps I have too much time on my hands and my conspiracy theaory side is coming out.   

I was wondering Mattwho if or when you have a spare few minutes you can summarise some of the ride reports for some of your boards, I always wonder how things are going over your side of the world and even after re-reading some of this thread I find it difficult to link the ride reports to the specific boards.

I can’t keep up, but far as I understand we have…

Lil’ Sis   (low rocker?)

Big Sis (now old big sis)

Old groveller (blue and yellow)

New groveller - El Diablo? (Red)

The Clone

The Contender

Fangs 1,2 and 3

Magoo 1

Magoo 2  (The preferred magoo with more rocker?)

Monstamash step-up

Hulk

Big sis 2 (new) re-do

Lil’ sis 2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

just had a blast reading this baby from about page 9, so much great stuff, once you learn how to speak Matty…

 

love your work mate, would lov eit even better if we lived near each other anc ould swap ideas in person…

Sorry but…

It has been a while

I mean fishing…

So…

I have a major fish Nazi going on.

Don’t have anything on the slab right now.

#1 priority a new HPLB…

$$$$ 

Worked my ass off all Winter.

Re armed Boys Quiver

made 2 new grovellers, both with great ride reports

that alone, I’ll take it

it is rare for me to get it close the first go…

The step up was also a big step ahead.

The 2 guns ? Ridden, not enough due to a lack of big surf and conditions.

Where I going with this?

The “Mini Simm”…

The rash of crappy local surf has been productive in testing…

I think I fucked it up, trying to get max volume…

i.e. width…

So right now I have a stash of new boards I have held

till now (Summer)!

$$$ up,  I’ll move on.

BTW here is the “Mini Simm” Killer…

 




All good, excellent report, stoked!  South swell coming…

Yup,

Lovin’ it!

All the hard work over winter is paying off.

Great sucess with the “Magoo” #1

The story?

Made this board for shop dude, that choked at the end $$$,

Gave it to “Boy” along with a simular shape, only more advanced.

Guess which one gets the more water time???

Groveller shape works well up to 6ft!

Blow me down!

 Simple forgiving rails (oxymoron)…

Life is good

and when I am on land for a while

well,

it just comes on…

Always room for improvement

Shapes, foils and rails that is…

Smooth sailin’ 

Good to hear from ya jaybee Matty! Hope to see more board pics and surfin pics from ya soon!

So the magoo 1 is getting better feedback than the magoo 2?
magoo 1 is low rocker and magoo 2 is high rocker?

Thanks Huck,

I don’t think I will ever lose my stoke for shaping, etc.

Really sitting back and collecting data for the next go.

Ha!  The list of new stuff is growing. . .

LTM,

You are on it!

This is quite interesting.

We old guys can remember a lot and I have been on a mental safari.

I mean searching my mind for details on these two.

I believe, I have already stated that Magoo 1 was for a shop groid and very mellow

I used the oxymoron rail and less rocker plus the outline used was a modified Dumpster Diver

With the hard edge starting mid fin.

Just for the record.

Magoo 2

More rocker, tucked edge along with a modified #4 outline.

Edges hard @ front of fin.

Thanks!!!

How’s it with you all???




Still here,  But problems sourcing materials for the time being, and I am unwilling to compromise on quality, so I am at a full stop for at least another couple of weeks.  

Back to magoos,  as far as (I think) I can remember both the magoos have quite a lot of tail rocker (even the lower rockered one I think I would probably call moderate) and both have what i would call fairly low entry rockers at around  1 1/8  and 1 1/4? It sounds like you really have something working there on those designs. 

After giving the lastest board some serious testing and getting to see a few clips of my average surfing ability (we are talking about quite a few surf hours here) I was thinking exactly that, lowering the entry slightly on my personal boards from 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 because the rails further towards the nose are not being used… its a waste of board…

 

The extra tail rocker makes foam climbs easier and can get that extra quick last turn in on closeout sections etc that is generally harder with lower rockers…   (unless you are gabriel medina who seems to be absolutely killing it with his lowered rocker designs (which leaves me scratching my head))

I think he generally uses shallow concaves with a decent amount of vee in the tail… and this is another thing that I would like to return to experimenting with sometime soon. After measuring a CI Neckbeard some time back, v low tail rocker of  around 1 3/4 critically with plenty of vee in the tail. I had the pleasure of testing one some time back although a good balanced board it lacked that finishing hook in the pocket style of riding (unless you are someone like Dane Reynolds). Very hard edges on the whole tail area forward of the fins on that board also.

 

 

UPDATE!

All is well…

The Magoo #1 is unreal, the loose rail is just the ticket in medium conditions.

The new Fang design has redeemed itself…

“Boy” is becoming a great test pilot along with Hoss the up and comer.

Me?

Ordering new foam (as per plan).

Fish too big!

My tackle is gettin’ creamed.

And the SUP’s 

in the harbor,

oh so terrible!

More soon!