OK here’s the fun challenge:
I am donating a GPS unit to the Swaylock’s community to pass around.
The deal is that you anyone who wants to play around with speed measuring keeps the device for up to a month, before passing it on to the next person, after posting a few speeds along with the conditions and board used.
Any takers? First one in, first served.
regards,
Roy
PS Here’s a rotating board clip which James made for me, kind of cute I think
http://www.olosurfer.com/rotatingboard.wmv
.
Tom - I’m a little confused. Through this thread you are proclaiming the speed of your boards, yet in your video the “Latest movie” a knee-boarder pratically surfs circles around you. http://www.olosurfer.com/D11-9s.wmv Please explain. TaylorO
yeah true, . . . need to define what speed is . . .I ment that people’s perceptions / expectations / definitions of speed may not be this: avg speed = distance traveled / time of travel . . .
I know a guy who judges speed on how many shortboard ASP style maneuvers you can pull off and if you have room to do a round house.
Then you have to set up parameters for the test. Its difficult because no ocean waves are the same, unless you do the tests in a wave pool.
Incorrect, I had to stall and take a low line to give him room, if I hadn’t, I would have bashed right into him.
Also, the fastest part of the wave was further down the line, and he didn’t get there!
Really, we would both need to carry GPS units in order to know who clocked the fastest 1/10th of a second
What we will be measuring via GPS is the fastest 1/10th of a second of horizontal travel, that’s all.
If you can make long sections or get a long ride then the only advantage that might give is the opportunity to encounter more speed opportunities.
Hello,Funny how nearly everyone seems to be confusing speed with big wave riding and tube riding. . . .
Aloha Roy
I agree. Though if we are talking maximum speed, then bigger more hollow and more powerful waves are where max speeds are more likely to be achieved. But I do understand your point. Fastest speeds, relative to a specific break, day and board is an important issue.
And also it is strange how discussing speed brings up so much emotion, like it’s a taboo subject or something.
Roy, with all due respect, I think the emotion is primarily stirred by your provocative approach to the issue. Your claim that YOUR boards ARE the FASTEST, is what tends to set the competitive tone right from the start. I realize that you are a great and firm believer in your boards and of course your presumption of their superior speed. The emotion you are seeing reflected back to you in the discussion is because of the dogmatic way you present your belief, without data to back it up.
From my point of view, it’s a fairly intellectual pursuit, I don’t really equate trying to go fast with having to take off on massive waves or proving myself as a big wave hell man, and it surprises me that people seem to assume that I am pumping myself up as a great surfer sinmply because I have built some fast boards.
The point is that going faster on any kind of wave is what I am talking about. . . if that’s big waves then it’s all good, small waves, also good.
I am interested in discussions about speed, and measuring speed as a design tool, not all this emotional irrational stuff.
Then don’t make your superior speed claims in advance of appropriate proofs, because to others, it is those claims that seem to be the “emotional” and “irrational stuff”. You say you make fast boards. But people here only know whether you do or not by how we see them going in your videos and apparently Roy… they don’t look all that fast to many on Swaylocks. Consequently, you have a certain kind of polarization going on. You say they are fast, others are politely (most of the time) trying to tell you that they aren’t.
In my opinion the speed discussion here reveals an immaturity . . . it’s as if we don’thave the language or the presence of mind to talk about it without it becoming a macho standoff, that’s a pity really, because it hinders the exchange of information which we could be having.
Assuming we are all honestly investigating speed results and there are no existing standards or data regarding them. Then it could be seen as “immature” or even provocative, to make claims regarding the speed of any board without data. Especially by those as prejudiced as the maker of those boards might tend to be. Making claims in advance of quality data will surely create a discussion tone that leads to a “macho standoff” as everyone tries to establish their position, via talking, instead of surfing.
“Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events, not of words. Trust movement.”
-Alfred Adler
Roy, you may be dead right that your boards are way faster then all others. And it would be pretty cool to discover that you are onto something that everyone else has missed all these years.
The tension you are seeing is due to the lack of belief in this by others. Maybe they are right. Maybe they are wrong. We have all surfed and watched surfing for long enough to have some “reasonable sense of speed”. We are all great supporters of your work Roy. But when it comes to their superior speed we are all still looking for the visual evidence as apparently, what you have produced so far, hasn’t effectively made your case well enough to convince anyone. The reason that Laniakea was mentioned, is because that wave can be perfectly formed from 5’ to 15’+ and yet be so fast that it is impossible to keep up with. It is very easy to see who is making waves and therefore who is going faster in that kind of condition because he who isn’t is wiping out regularly.
GPS won’t really establish it either as it will only measure the time it takes to get from point to point over land. Board speed is really an issue of water speed over the hull. The amount of water passing under a board and how fast it travels, seems to me to be the true measure of speed.
A continuing thought on cutting back…since staying on ones board is necessary when banking the board up on a rail when turning, one would fall off without foot straps or enough centrifugal force to attach one’s self to the deck.
To achieve the necessary centrifugal force needed to stick to the deck firmly one would need enough speed to initiate the turn and hold the turns arc and not slow down too soon. So what I was thinking with my previous cutback question was… Roy, do you have enough speed on your boards to lay them over in a turn or cutback such that the centrifugal force would hold you securely to the deck. Or… are you primarily just trimming along with the wave and assuming that in that position that this is where maximum speed is generated. It might be where the maximum distance is covered, but I don’t think it is where the maximum speed is.
It’s been fun though, and thanks for all the input, and the invitations/challenges, it shows that there is at least some interest in the subject of pure speed.
See you soon.
PS Sometimes the fastest speed on any given day will be only a few knots. . . . like on a day of small unbroken swell. … . . . I am interestedin that side of things too, not just the very obvious big wave tube stuff. . . . surfing fast can be a very gentle pursuit, just like gliding or sailing can be .
.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for taking the time to give us your valued opinion, IMO you make some good points.
I agree with you about data, that’s why I am trying to get some interest in my ‘free gps for a month’ offer. . . . I don’t want to be the only guy on the golfcourse who counts his strokes !
Anyway I will keep pottering, and will be putting up some gps speeds later this month, we are getting a pair of them as part of our annual surfing equipment buy up.
Cheers,
Roy
BTW down the line speed is all we will be measuring via gps, obviously, I agree that it doesn’t tell us everything, but it is still a useful parameter, given that down the line speed is so important to surfers. Remember that it is only the fastest 1/10th of a second which is measured, so even a radical off the top redirection or quick bottom turn could be that fast moment… . . . and speed through the water which is pumped up via radical turns will register if at any time it turns intio horizontal velocity for even 1/10th of a second.
Bill Barnfield wrote: “The amount of water passing under a board and how fast it travels, seems to me to be the true measure of speed.”
I agree, and I think this is also partly why Roy’s videos fail to convince. That “amount of water” is the inside surface of what is to large extent a rotating cylinder, and the effective direction of travel relative to that surface is more-or-less diagonal. What shows (mostly) in a video clip is the horizontal component of that travel. I think it is very difficult to judge the vertical (rotational) velocity of water. Surfers who watch a clip of a break with which they are familiar can make reasoned assumptions about this, but that would not hold when viewing video of an unknown wave. We probably should refine “amount” as either volume or area; I would vote for “area”. My guess is that the “speed of interest” to most of us is a value somewhere between the linear (GPS) speed and the “total area of water under the hull” speed. I do agree with Roy that the GPS speed is nevertheless one useful value for evaluation and comparison. I also agree with CarveNalu that the ultimate measure is making the wave. I would like to see and compare results from boards of different designs that are instrumented with GPS and a paddlewheel speed sensor (at minimum) and surfed on the same wave under identical conditions. Then and only imo then could we have a really productive discussion of board speed and of measurement evaluation.
-Samiam
Guys,
See what I mean by commenting about Roy setting SILLY conditions? The FASTEST 1/10th of a second? Give me an F-ing break. The unsupported, chest thumping brag, was about SPEED, that was/is NOT observable in the videos. Period.
So, my measure of board speed has always been being able to make waves from a deeper takeoff position, than others. If you’re doing that, you are covering a greater distance to the same point, in the same time or less. You can only do that by going FASTER. Do you follow that? As far as Roy and others getting worked up about the discussion changing to a wave size challenge, that just goes with the territory. You get higher speed with larger waves. Isn’t this discussion about speed? If it truely is, then in my opinion it is best measured at an extreme limit, A FAST BREAKING WAVE THAT YOU EITHER MAKE, OR YOU DON’T. SIMPLE,isn’t it? Here’s some information that may help you understand. Big waves are easier to ride than small waves, and bigger waves tend to produce higher speeds. The fastest waves I’ve ever ridden were at Laniakea, Makaha next, Sunset after that. At those breaks your board will be pushed to the limit of the terminal velocity it can obtain. In small waves a board with larger surface area will perform “better” than a board with a lower surface area. The reverse is true for larger waves. The bigger the wave the smaller the board, in general. I’ve seen guys on paipo boards squirt past 11’ guns on the drop at Waimea. But I digress. For the purpose of obtaining raw speed, which is what Roy claims, his boards just don’t cut it. The “test waves” could be 5’ sewerpipe zippers, or large waves lined up for 200 yards, (Laniakea) the result would be the same. Here’s an idea, why not have Terry Fitzgerald evaluate one of Roys’ WMv’s in some fast breaking waves, anywhere he would care to. In conclusion I would suggest that this topic will produce nothing of value as it relates to Roys’ understanding. He is on his own path, and it is interesting in a number of ways. I have simply taken exception to the unsupported, unsupportable, outrageous claims of extroardinary unobservable speed. I’ll believe it, when it (the speed) is shown to me. My experience over the 51 years that I’ve focused my attention on surfboard performance, is the basis for my comments. It is not Roy bashing, it is ignorance bashing.
Roy-
I’ll start the GPS challenge. I’ll ride it from slow San’O to trestles to beach breaks to summer reefs…whatever I can find. I’m interested to see just how fast…or slow…I go. PM me to talk further.
Hello Brett,
Nice one! PM coming your way.
Regards,
Roy
Guys,
See what I mean by commenting about Roy setting SILLY conditions? The FASTEST 1/10th of a second? Give me an F-ing break.
Hello Bill, Recently Surfer magazine did a surfboard speed test using GPS units, (comparing various surfing craft).
They published an article about it.
If it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me! You do your thing, and I’ll do mine OK ?
Roy
Hello iam2sam,
I am not publishing videos with any expectation that they will convince anyone of anything.
That’s why I am suggesting GPS.
GPS measures down the line speed
That’s what I am interested in, down the line speed . . . . take it or leave it.
Regards,
Roy
slow fast
who cares
a solid balsa longboard is hardly what id call fast bill
why dont you guys ride a board that can turn and is fast through turns
a longboard mite be faster when planeing but boring to ride
i only ride them when the surf sux
comparing a surtech long board to one of roys is waste of time(wrt performance)
you guys can laugh at roy
but shortboarders the world over laugh@u
when they hear the words longboard and performance in the same sentence
maybe a sunova longboard is fast and high performance
looking at berts photos and video
justin gets enough speed to do 180 airs on headhigh waves
maybe one of roys designs built as a light weight composite
would blow minds
who knows?
roys claims are just as valid as thraillkill imho
its all suggestive anyway, even gps is a waste of time
only a speed log type device could be truly valid
but in reality it compeletly depends on the surfer
so you guys are still wasting your time.
unless the boards are ridden and tested by the same rider…
and the only way to accurately dispute it is by doing the testing
in a scientific way
i dont care how many boards u have built
build a board@ under 6 pounds in modern materials
then you can start talking performance and speed
its like calling a a 1960s motor bike high performance or fast(it was once back in its day)
a log is log is a log
velocity and planning area is what makes a longboard make it through sections
but id rather whack it on 2 kg shorty
Roy,
I want to thank you for your courtesy in your response. A welcome change from the “old Roy”. While we do disagree on many issues, I do find your construction method both interesting, and innovative. You and I both share an interest, and perhaps a passion, for surfing. I do not, however, share your confidence is Surfer Magazine. What’s good enough for them, is not good enough for me. I will agree to disagree with you on the question of thier merit as a resource. When I did my thing, as you suggest, I could make several hundred yards of insane tubeing 15’ Laniakea. Not because of my skill as a surfer, but because of an inherantly fast surfboard that I managed to stay on. You don’t make those kind of waves because of balls, or will power. It’s equipment. Without the proper equipment, the other attributes will only get you in trouble. Over and out.
how about Superbank as a suitable racetrack? not so far for you to travel. I think a video of you on that’d do it for me. Might be a bit dangerous with the crowds there, you could paint your ‘kills’ onto your board like a fighter pilot?
Also I’ve been thinking about the conditions you propose for the GPS tests. At best GPSs are accurate to a couple of meters, if you’ve got perfect reception. (they continue to quote a 10 figure grid reference even if they haven’t that resolution). Taking your proposed 0.1s time frame, and taking a speed of 60 kph for easyness sake, you’d travel 1.6m in 0.1s, which isn’t enough for an accurate speed, so your fastest 0.1 seconds by this reckoning would be a glitch when the GPS tried to smooth your track out (from my experience they tend to do this). I assume you’ve looked into GPSs so correct me if I’m wrong, I used to use the garmin style handheld units.
" you could paint your ‘kills’ onto your board like a fighter pilot "
Hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Gee thanks for making me spit all over my screen Tej!!!
Paul,
You have surely chosen an appropriate name for yourself on swaylocks. Silly really fits you. FYI, I’ve not ridden a balsa board since 1960. I still love the look of them, and still make them. Isn’t velocity another word for speed? Was, or was not, this thread about speed? FYI, I can, and have, built five, and six pound boards. Frankly it’s no big challenge to do so. You display what I fondly refer to as " The arrogance of ignorance." Your humble opinion that you refer to is wrong. From my perspective, which is founded in experience, you really do not know what you are talking about. My idea of a short board is in the six foot range, My ideal do everything board is 7’ 10’‘. At 6’, 220#, I have no interest in sub six foot, six pound boards. It’s just not my bag. But wait, there’s more… wasn’t the whole discussion about speed? Why are you trying to go down the shortboards are superior path? I’m curious, how did you choose a solid balsa longboard, as the basis of attacking my comments? Did I make a specific claim of speed for balsa longboards? Aren’t Roys’ boards fairly long? He claims his boards are SO fast, why aren’t you attacking him? Or is Roy a sacred cow to you? And before you waste your time attacking “my idea of a shortboard” as wrong, you really need to understand that that is an area of surfing that does not hold my interest. I just don’t care about it. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand the design principles, or that I don’t marvel at what some riders do. Or that I can’t make them. Remember, I was there during, and part of, what is referred to as the “Shortboard Revolution”. Like Roy, in some ways, I’ve chosen a different path. I’m content to do what pleases me. Not what pleases you.
Hi Bill,
Your ‘Thrailkill Gun’ design is right up my street (rather like a Dewey Weber gun ?) Was that the kind of board you were riding back when you were making long tubes at laniakea ? That forward planshape longboard gun design is faster than the ‘Malibu’ style of noseriding longboard isn’t it ? Just thinking that we are on the same wavelength in some respects, and also that I have been greatly influenced by the kind of board which you were designing back then.
